Info Item Team Thread - Item/ingredient/major Id Changes, Updates & More

I know that other archetypes were not hit as bad, that's why I said that I'm probably just wearing the wrong items that get affected.

I didn't swap into bcata from something else, that was my first build on both Nirvana and Idol. (okay, I admit I had one Idol build before, but I only used it once and I died at the Mummy in LI, so I never used it again)

As I mentioned, I didn't know about bcata until I started using my idol and nirvana builds, I had no idea what bcata was and how long it was in the game, I didn't pay attention to 1.20 item changes as I wasn't playing actively and I was only sporadically lootrunning. So I didn't have any thoughts on that, except that I found out much later that it sp broke my Toxo build

Why would I lie about this? I literally spent 10 minutes fighting Robob's 3rd phase and he was at full hp. I can send u my initial reaction from a discord conversation, if you want, actually I will do that

https://imgur.com/a/XyswF8D

This was a private conversation, I had no one to make a point to, no reason to lie also it was a few months ago, not pre-1.19

if WFA was really too op, and dealt more damage than it should've, then I understand why it was nerfed, I just never felt like the damage was too big, except on that Nirvana, but WFA was the only archetype that fit my playstyle, now I just feel like I don't have anything to play

Man, I didn't know what was cool or not, I just like water weapons, I didn't know what stance WFA had or has amongst other archetypes. I didn't only like it because it was "too good" or "dominant" I had no idea it was dominant or too good, I thought it was comfortable. Tanky and DPS high enough that LI didn't take more than 40 minutes.

Also thanks for taking the time and making those builds, but I already know that I wont survive on those builds

I mean I can survive semi-glassy builds on Shaman and Archer thanks to the small heal on Shaman and the range of an Archer and I can survival glass cannon Warp because it's a mage and they can heal. But I just need to be tanky on Assassin and Warrior

I guess I'm just a shitty player because I just can't survive without having something that's apparently op.

 

mb i thought you were being sarcastic.

i'm vouching against you because i think what you're saying is wrong, not because i think you would lie. i want to point out that there's some unaccounted discrepancy that isn't just wfa damage being too low.

in the peak of wfa's dominance, we saw wfa archers hit 9-10k bombs whilst offensive 20-30k ehp clusters were finding 12-13k. in my opinion, that's not a big enough difference. if you think otherwise, then you don't support a large part of the rationale behind the patch, and you're free to make your case.

it's not all on you. if your story is true, then you've been spoiled by seemingly arriving just when items were as busted as they'd ever been. you either happened to prefer the top-tier meta archetypes or were recommended them because they were so prevalent.

part of the problem, as i've previously hardlined, is enemy powercreep. as for the rest, i wish you the best towards gradually adapting to the intended level of gameplay. most of the playerbase could do it before you, and unless you have unplayable ping like me, i think you can eventually do it too.

 

I may be wrong, but then I don't get why I didn't deal any damage to Robob in 10 minutes of throwing constant meteors at him (or to be more precise, why all the damage that I dealt, regenerated)

Ye, that's probably not a big enough difference

I only decided to play this archetype, because I already had Nirvana and Idol pre-1.19, those were the only two weapons I could use on those classes respectively. And I was recommended WFA, I had no idea if it was good, bad, dominant or whatever

I mean I love this server, I most likely won't quit and I'm glad most of the playerbase can adapt, because I don't want these changes to be shit for anyone like it is for me, but I don't think I will adapt. Unless they fix Warp, I will just stop playing on my Mage, Warrior and Assassin completely , because I simply cannot play comfortably because of these changes and I'm not willing to play something that will only make me frustrated because I'm just getting rekt with any other archetype. And it's shame because Mage and Warrior were my favorite classes. I'm just a shitty player, and I don't mean that in any sarcastic or passive-offensive way, I'm just a shitty player, I should probably admit to myself that I can only play apparently op stuff and eventually I won't be able to play anything at all

 

I definitely sympathize with this, I'm pretty trash at the game too, and while for the most part I think this item update has been pretty healthy for the state of the game (big changes like this tend to be pretty rocky and a new meta will arise but it will be hard for the first few weeks or maybe even month while things are being figured out), there are some really valid criticisms that I have seen being raised, especially focused around a lot of the mythic weapons that were already relatively mediocre in comparison to the rest of their respective class pools that were Water or Air based and just being even more harshly weakened by the new shift towards a strength/dex valuing meta. Your thoughts on warp seem pretty valid to me, and it, along with Strati and Hadal are things I definitely feel should be re-analyzed to flesh out their actual combat potential, and not just be mobility sticks (and hadal being janky melee or whatever).

Other valid concerns have definitely been raised about this meta favoring more damage and how that fights against two of the largest endgame "difficult content" challenges, being wars and raids. Hopefully, wars are rebalanced on their own terms, while I am a Pseudo-IM, I don't have any say in that, and quite frankly I'm woefully undereducated to understand the nuances of what's needed. Raids, as well, hopefully will get a deeper look at. Raid buffs obviously will need to be rebalanced as part of these changes and maybe some reanalysis of how difficult content is now with glassier builds will inform how to balance raids in the future and change the existing ones to be more fair to a more diverse range of playstyles.

Also unrelated but god I swear flipped lapis will die everyone please expect it I just want to scream it out here in case anyone thinks it's somehow balanced, sp decay must be fixed in the future or I will go insane

 

Kay.. on a side note now I think lunar ACTUALLY needs a buff this time xD

wa got hit very hard, and for one of the highest skill ceiling weapons in the game, that’s GOTTA hurt like the dickens.



Sooo... entropy? :D

 

Doesn't one of his swords heal him?

 

So guys..... it's been 59 days since Swordfish Spear was shown in a trailer............... WHERE IS IT @Bart (MC)

 

Basically said what I was going to say except I do plan on quitting for now lol.

While yes the meta changes from time to time I dislike having 10 out of my 13 builds broken or made not viable overnight. I've spent quite a bit of time labbing these changes and I feel they do next to nothing to solve wynn's overall problems. While I do like that some of the overpowered items that needed nerfs where nerfed overall I see this as the usual wynn type of fixes. Fixing one problem to create two more. In this case this update does some to address power creep on a handful of items and makes str/dex more powerful in comparison to tank typings. But unsurprisingly destroy a large portion of the player base's builds in the process and make the meta far more boring (in my opinion) and rather unfinished. Rainbow is absolute trash now and the majority of tri typings are also just not worth using because quads break the game. Not to mention weapons that already suffered low base damage struggle even more now. Might I add also that BEFORE this update there where quite a few things that needed changes. Heavy melee was and still is busted, the vast majority of endgame weapons are not viable, half the tri typings needed more adjustments to work well (ewa, ewf, efa, twa), and rainbow was absolute garbage outside of rainbow sanc. I see no priorities or direction with where this game is going in any of these changes. Really I have to ask why the hell was this even a priority in the first place??

While there is nothing wrong with change I would have thought at least someone would have thought this was a terrible idea. After all look at the shitshow of the elemental revamp the primary factor that pissed everyone of was "it ruins our builds" well congratulations here we are and that's exactly what happened. Maybe in the future some changes will be reverted or adjusted based on feedback, maybe some rebalances to other typings and weapons will help but all I know is right now this lack of direction and reason has unfortunately killed my passion for the game. Hope these changes go well for the rest of y'all in the future.

 

i mean… there's more than three valid spell builds in the meta now. in my eyes that qualifies it to be less boring :/

it seems to me that rainbow's doing just fine, and so are duo- and tri-elementals. what archetypes are we talking?

it's compensated by a new source of multiplicative damage boost via strdex.

that's tbd on the item team's agenda; it's not like they were viable previously afaik.

what adjustments do you have in mind? not too sure what you mean.

well, perhaps offensively, but it's not that bad otherwise.

it's just a normal patch, right? just because the rebalances don't have any urgency to them doesn't mean they're bad.

people did, but their thoughts weren't well articulated (xyz, deathlucifer, master mirror, haise).

elemental revamp killed nearly every build. on the other hand, this patch primarily targeted unhealthy top-tier metas like bcata.

i sure hope so too!

 

I don't really see what you mean by that personally. From what I found quad with e/t was significantly stronger than other spell typings

By rainbow I mean rainbow weapons not just sp as things like cascade and the watched to me seem noticeably worse than before. Also the bcata nerf and rsanc nerf hits rainbow esspecially hard given they basically carried the typing. But again I see that as something I wish was taken care of before this patch. However I do agree that the sp nerf some people over exaggerate.
I disagree with what you mean by duo and tri elementals as in my labbing I found it very difficult to make strong non mythic builds in tri outside of tfw, tfa, and still twa on mage. However I don't think the melee meta changed quite as much. I think part of the problem with tris is not so much they are a bit weaker this patch but quad is so strong due to these sp changes.

I find with fire or air setups I need more dex/str sp to get the same amount of damage I got pre patch which I think hurts the playstyles in the long run. However raw spell/melee baselines could play a role in this as well as the new weapon baselines needing adjustment which can all be fixed in the future.

I am aware of that however I simply was listing these as more "pressing" issues to most people and things people would rather see changed than this patch.

ewa, ewf, efa, twa of these four specifically.
ewa's playstyle is just not very supported by the current item pool as it lacks good tierstack options and alot weapons in each of the three typings just work better in others due to their stats. In all fairness strength affecting raw melee may make the typing a bit stronger I still think it needed adjustments before this.
ewf is blatantly outclassed by etwf or wfa if you want tank. It needed something more for awhile before this patch as it was (to my knowledge) not used much outside of gma to counter it's -hpr.
efa is efa lol I truthfully have no idea what to do with it
and twa is just a sort of spell damage setup that really is only good on mage for the most part however while dex was made better this patch the raw spell baselines being changed seems to make it slightly weaker on mage and stronger on other classes. WHICH IS A GOOD THING however it is still not great to use over quads or twf.
I simply feel there is a rather large balance issue all around. Now MAYBE I am not building some of these the way I am supposed to and I would be interested in seeing some interesting builds of some of the weaker tri types but I just don't think they have a place in the meta post patch.

Ha ill give you that one that build is pretty sweet

To me this is not a "normal" patch, if you will, I see a normal patch as one type of item gets some adjustments and some balance changes or what not the minorly shift the meta and not just yeeting half the item pool and drastically changing the endgame meta. I guess I just don't really understand the purpose of the patch as in my mind, as a player and not a dev, none of these changes needed to happen especially over other changes like some of the ones I listed off in the previous reply.

I see...I honestly don't think my thoughts aline exactly with those responses either however I guess I was wrong about there being little pushback. I suppose my opinion was made about most of the atlas inc discord server being rather excited for these changes while I just had in the back of my mind the thought it was a bad idea that would shift the meta too much in a odd and drastic direction. I am not mad about "x" item being nuked or "y" item not being nuked or any of that sort of thing. I think I just dislike the change being more drastic than other patches and feel like doing this more slowly would have been better for the game. However this isn't worth arguing given some people like the changes.

Ehhh. I kind of disagree on this only because most of the builds I have that got destroyed where all a variety of different types and a few of my builds which this patch probably should have made stronger (mid to high dex and/or str with other types of weapons) are much weaker. However again this may be entirely circumstancal

Yeah I saw that and I hope that to be the case. Seeing some of the items people knew and said where over powered get nerfed was nice. I do feel in the past there have been some decisions by the team as a whole that where questionable to the community and my faith in them is shaky in that sense. However I will continue to hope for the best and provide feedback whenever I can.

 

wfa wasn't nerfed to make it harder to attain prepatch damage; it was nerfed to straight up decrease damage.

i might not have a good grasp of the bigger picture, since i came to the opposite conclusion after my own testing. ewa bhaze and ewa rte both survived the patch. on the other hand, quads seemed slightly weaker than before. cdd dislikes the bcata nerf (obviously) as well as the cumu and cchain nerfs. guillotine similarly suffered the stalactite nerf.

when was ewa reliant on tiers?

efa's still vibing.

revamps in high demand, such as a weapon rebalance or an accessory overhaul, would take a lot more effort. they'd also depend on the resolution of some of the problem items nerfed in this patch. strdex serves as a good example of this: it was a good systemic change, but didn't work the first time (hotfix 6) due to missing requisite rebalances.

i can accept that i'm wrong to have trivialized the patch. a lot of items did need nerfs though (feels rude to relink the same references but bart and i spoke about this recently).

you suck!

jokes aside, i think there's a disparity between our views on what it means for a build to break. i'm admittedly radical to say that a build is "intact" as long as its concept still exists in the new patch with similar damage/defense figures, even if multiple parts need to be swapped out.

if baselines bothered you, the rescaling was done systematically (-1% for every level past 70, with some obvious exceptions) and is almost certainly going to be reconsidered. otherwise, i maintain that every spell-related nerf that was made to an individual item was justified.

 

He hasn't got regen, but his Mage phase does have Heal, which gives him a 70k health heal-wall(though the heal combo is VERY rare), and the Diamond Sword uses Heal every 10 seconds, for a maximum heal of 15k- but it's killable and isn't guaranteed to be around him all the time.

 

in theory ewa is the fast hybrid archetype, but falls short on addressing this partially due to haha fast hybrid on anything except shaman or mage, but also to a degree the lack of tiers

 

My issue is immortality.
Let's face it, lower damage for WFA makes an already, pretty objectively boring playstyle more boring.
They are still going to win against everything with practically no struggle whats so ever, it just takes longer, which, is kinda an issue, because players aren't against optimizing the fun out of games.
(I mean shit, I do it ._.)

I hope nerfing tank builds survivability happens sooner rather than later personally.
I do have a couple of really simple ideas that could be done without much backlash, like lowering the defensive SP tank weapons give, seeing as their SP doesn't go towards what items you can use, but can still pretty drastically affect how tanky a build can be. Either way, just hope making tanks able to die is pretty high up on the list of things to do.
Also, I know this has nothing to do with the item team, but please dear god when will we get an actually aggro system?

 

To be fair, not dying and humiliating bosses IS pretty fun xD

Personally, I vouch for wfa to be even more tanky, but that might be just because of the ridiculous damage you take in raids.

Other than that I’d say the defensive aspect of the game is fine

 

Maybe raid damage would be easier to balance if there weren't any builds that make you practically immortal. Just a thought.

 

I have litterally never died in a raid unless it was to something thats supposed to be an instant kill (standing on top of a core in tcc)
or being forzen as the only party member left. Other wise its physically impossible for me to die in a raid, and thats the only content that I can die at all, nothing else stands a chance.

It's not fun in the same way.
Its the same kind of fun as one shotting a boss, but honestly that gets old quick.
I'm the kind of person that enjoys filling the tank role in mmos, so I play tank on Wynncraft anyways, but it's pretty boring; there isn't much for me to do besides hope my Guardian id is working, and spam warscream, which only works 1/10th of the time anyways, oh, and I guess I can stand in front of ranged mobs sometimes.

Personally, if I was balancing tanks, I would try to get tanks to do the following:
1. In content in which you are actively tanking aggro for a group, and/or redirecting damage to yourself, you should need a support to heal you. (basically in raids)
2. When by yourself, and not having to worry about others, you still need to worry about dogding attacks and crowd controling minions in order to avoid chip damage, but you don't require support. (everything else)

We also need systems to allow you to do this.
I.e. an aggro system + better crowd control for warrior.

110% agree.

 

@JaydonTheWarrior could you define immortality with an ehp range? initially i assumed 100k (in which case your points are less valid), but it occurred to me that your concept may be even higher.

 

immortality also has to do more with ehpr than ehp hmm
which is actually quite difficult to achieve on non Ma

 

As hppeng said, its mainly hp regen.
Not enterily sure what else you want me to say to that.

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Plus you can easily get over 100k eph with defense agility together anyways.
My full hp regen build has 673k eph, and its focused on ehpr, not eph.