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Game Mechanics Remove CCI

Discussion in 'General Suggestions' started by Druser, Sep 3, 2021.

?

poll

  1. Remove CCI

    43 vote(s)
    65.2%
  2. Keep CCI

    23 vote(s)
    34.8%
  1. Druser

    Druser ele defs don't matter HERO Featured Wynncraftian

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    That's literally it.

    While classes have always been a little weirdly balanced, the addition of CCI contributed greatly to screwing over many classes and playstyles, and is responsible for a significant portion of the modern endgame weapon balancing issues as well (Orange Lily is busted almost entirely because of CCI). I would even say that removing CCI would be the single most effective step that could be taken right now to improve overall game balance.

    Even if CCI attempts to solve certain problems with the game, it does so in an extremely counterproductive way - the things CCI attempts to accomplish would be better done in other ways.
     
  2. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Local IM (MC) Item Team HERO

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  3. PopePurpleTTV

    PopePurpleTTV *:^)=Immortal=(^:* CHAMPION

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    CCI is just an annoying addition that doesn't make the combat more interesting, just l o n g if you're not 100% built to handle it. Kinda sucks
     
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  4. Saya

    Saya you win at uwynn VIP+

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    Wynn is exploitable without CCI.

    Wynn is significantly less fun, screwed balance-wise, limited, and still pretty exploitable with CCI.

    now i go back to inactivity because of move woooo
     
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  5. Iboju

    Iboju absolute swag male CHAMPION

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    YES YES YES

    CCI screws over so much of endgame balancing and as you said, basically locks out a class from 90% of endgame combat content.

    Sure its got a few upsides like fixing exploitability and makes the game slightly harder which i sorta find cool but the drawbacks are way more vast and hurt the game more than help

    +1 +1 +1 +1
     
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  6. nip nop

    nip nop i like ava CHAMPION

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    is the current iteration of CCI still very flawed? yes

    is the current iteration of CCI still very buggy and doesnt entirely work as intended? yes

    should CCI be suspended until these issues are resolved? i dont know, possibly? at the same time, i do not think spin attack stunlock is healthy for the game, either

    should CCI as a mechanic be scrapped entirely? no, i do not believe so
     
  7. BlueTheSniper

    BlueTheSniper Sniper Monke CHAMPION

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    guess i'll have to learn to uppercancel again....
     
  8. FrozenEarth

    FrozenEarth Community Helper + Wiki Manager VIP+

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    In my opinion, it's they should go either:
    • With CCI and current class capabilities, work it into something that makes fights more challenging and engaging. It's always iffy feeling-wise to take things away from the player (as shown in replies above), but stun immunity or likewise is still not anything new to RPGs. Some games for example make CC abilities deal extra damage if the target is immune to CC, so they retain some of their use.
    • Without CCI, nerf class CC abilities so that players don't have such powerful tools against mobs in the first place. Obviously it feels fun and like you're in control to stunlock a boss or just be untouchable, but it doesn't leave much for bosses to actually do anything to the player when they play right besides having high HP and other fight mechanics. This also has the downside of nerfing CC against regular mobs too, which CCI does allow the CT to set per-mob, separating regular mobs from bosses.
    I don't really see CCI as an issue personally besides the knockback bugs and poor display updating. If it matters, I mainly played Shaman to level ~70 on 1.19 launch and got it to 105 after 1.20 launched. It seems rather silly that you could just spam CC on bosses and there wouldn't be any resistance/eventual breakthrough to stop or threaten you.
     
  9. Ingo

    Ingo [105*/Ma|105/Sh|104/As|103*/Wa] HERO

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    Remove CCI, but:
    1. Remove blinding effect from all spells.
    2. Make it impossible to auralock bosses (you can pull bosses and pull + auralock minions but bosses can leave the aura prison).
    3. Make "knockback levels" - less knockback/pull/push on bigger mobs.
    ________________________________
    The content team forgot to add CCI to aledar and tasim, so get a spell shaman or assassin build and fight them. You'll see how easy it is...
     
  10. Xeabia

    Xeabia A creative mind who's clumsy as heck HERO

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    While 1.20.3 was a step in the right direction for CCI, I feel like the problem of sometimes your spells not functioning from their intended upgrades still persists. I feel like CCI shouldn't be scrapped entirely, since you get the Shaman's Paradox. If you don't have CCI, you have Aura destroying every boss. If you do have CCI, you make Shaman suffer for most bosses. That, and with the addition of more complex and challenging bosses in 1.20, it makes sense that the Embodiment of Light itself get crippled by debuffs like Blind, and Freeze lock and just keels over. CCI adds a bit more flair to a boss, like a huge walking Giant having Knockback Immunity makes sense, and even Blindness makes sense since they're so tall that it's very hard to try and blind them.

    Generally, limiting the player without the feeling of choice is what kills a player's experience, so there some ideas I feel might fix this.

    1. Turn CCResistences into real actual Resistances:
    None of this cooldown stuff. If you have a spell build, and want to spam your debuffing spell, you should be able to since you make a build for it. You know an example where they give a lot of player utility and freedom to do spells that can crush enemies but has balancing? Dungeons and Dragons. Have special boss mobs have a built in Percentage Resistance to a spell, so that the spell is still useful, and you don't have to wait the clock for it. If you want to improve your chances of inflicting a debuff, then make a build to encourage said spell, making more room for Spell Spam users to include you know. The spell that's supposed to feel like a multi-use tool and has a lot of practicality when it comes to combat and keeping you safe.

    2. Make CCI more rare:
    So, the reason CCI comes up so often is due to how much it feels like it gatekeeps certain playstyles. Especially around endgame. CCI, is like Neutral Damage Resistance was an Elemental Resistance for mobs only. If a mob has that, and a majority of bosses have it, that sucks. It subliminally forces your hand to use elemental weapons and neglects Neutral Damage users, while also limiting them to the cons of Elemental Resistances. You see where I'm getting at? If a majority of bosses have two types of Resistances or Immunities, then it just sucks and feels like it's punishing the player if they really like using that aspect. Being Immune/Resistant should be used to make a boss feel intimidating. Not being able to use Telekinesis on an Villager that got took way too many crystals that can destroy the world makes sense. Not being able to use Raise Dead on an undead brother just because, "Oh, he's just a strong boi" doesn't make sense. CCI should not be given out like free candy to bosses. Sure, for Multiplayer Bosses, it makes sense sense for balancing, but at least make it Very Strong Resistances so that you can coordinate a debuffer. And in some cases, it just doesn't make sense. Let's look at the Realm of Light V Boss, "Your Reflection?". Has Blindness Immunity. Erm, I can kinda see that, with a mirror being able to always look into your soul. Knockback Resistance by 3 seconds. I don't really see why this is here. When was the last time you've seen a human become immune to being thrown, after you suplex them? Slowness Resistance by 9 seconds, wot? First, why so long. Secondly, how does this even apply to a Mirror of you. Thirdly, when have you every just been immune to being frozen like a popsicle, just because you experienced hypothermia 9 seconds ago? A lot of CCI just feels slapped onto bosses, without making much sense. Sure, make a boss more intimidating, but make it sense and make it not everywhere. You don't see most of SE's and dark themed mobs having a Elemental Resistance to Fire, cause of supposedly "Fire = Brimstone = Evil", no. That won't make much sense, is repetitive, and limits the player who plays Fire. There's a reason why Elemental Immunity doesn't exist for bosses your meant to defeat in combat.

    3. Nerf in inherent CC of some spells:
    This one is a bit more picky, but spells that can stunlock end-of-the-world bosses wouldn't be all that challenging, if we were to removed CCI. So, if the inherent problem lies in the spell, nerf it a bit. Now, this doesn't mean to remove Blindness, but simply reduce the duration to like half. Reduce the Knockback of Arrow Shield by half. Make it so that stunlocking is such a narrow frame where you cannot spam it. This is only if the other two ideas are a no go, but we're still removing CCI. Personally, I wouldn't go down this route, but if you want the best worlds of the unlimited freedom of your spells while respecting the balancing of endgame bosses to be chcheezable, and non cheezable, then you would have to change up the game design of some class spells a bit, even if their point is to Crowd Control lesser enemies to not break the game in two.

    (This is an extra idea also to go along with the first idea)

    1a. Have CCResistences% Chance also depend on how strong your Thunder Damage is:
    So, kinda like how Water Damage % affecting your healing amount, how about Thunder Damage % effecting the additional chances of landing a successful debuff? Since Thunder Element's skill point is Dexterity, it could be symbolic of using percision to strike a vulnerable point to Blind them, topple them back, or freeze their body. Also, Intelligence, Defense, and Agility are already very strong, so I wouldn't have those elements be the one. Earth weapons are more melee and slow heavy, so they would really easy for them to cast a spell here and there while waiting, making it to easy for Earth users. Thunder has a lot of Fast Attacks, so focusing on both Melee and Spell Spam would be hectic, so thus, why I picked Thunder % Damage. It won't be a 1% Thunder Damage:1% Chance of Status Effect, but more of a smoothing curve the more you have. Tho, I can see why this might be iffy.

    So ye, CCI sucks, let's change that. :3
     
  11. Dr Zed

    Dr Zed Famous Adventurer HERO

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    Huh, I thought CCI was mostly fixed from the last patch.
     
  12. SaltyKing

    SaltyKing Salty As All Hell CHAMPION

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    No cci = Spell Shaman being usable again
    CCI = Warrior being usable (whilst this is mostly in regard to spell warrior, melee warrior is FAR superior now than what it used to be since the addition of more anti-kb)

    Whether you have it or don't have it some classes and play styles are going to get neutered whilst others become quite viable. Whilst it sucks that some play styles did get frankly ruined within the endgame sphere, I do think the added challenge to things like LI is a good thing.

    That being said, anti knock backs complete negation of arrow shield is disgusting. For example, Archer is completely unable to avoid Cybel phase 1,2,3,4 or 5. 1,3 and 5 can be killed which is great! But 2 and 4 are immortal and cannot be stopped or slowed by the use of spells. The real kicker is the fact that arrow shield doesn't even trigger against anti knock back mobs, they literally just walk through it. This particular fight is no longer about skill if you are an archer, its just about spamming pots, having good ws/agi and a bit of luck for a fast phase 2 and 4 which can last many minutes.

    Going to combine talking about both spell abilities and CCI here*
    Whilst I don't claim to be an expert on the SE boss altar, off what I do remember its a perfect example of a unique boss that has a skill set tailored to its lore. From what I understand its panicking and you are about to be panicking. Its a speedy as hell boi (I think also stun immunity?), gives blindness, drops you to 1% hp etc etc crazy shit to make you panic (the fact that its a boss altar and not part of the main story line gives it the right to be wild and op). CCI allows bosses and endgame content to be considerably more challenging and varied in said challenges which is an invaluable tool.

    I do not think CCI is perfect by any means, but I do think its basic principles were a sound addition to Wynncraft. Adding unique abilities to certain bosses that support its physical attributes, lore and descriptions does wonders to adding a realistic and immersive experience/challenge to the game. However, I will agree with some of the people above and say different CCI buffs were thrown out like candy and without good reasoning on a majority of end game bosses. This ruins the unique-ness of each boss when they all have anti-kb, making them boring, forgettable and in some cases not even about skill. On top of that I do not believe that any boss should have complete stun immunity like NoL raid boss has. Whilst I do like stun immunity I do think it should have a slight cool down in all scenarios. Even if its 1 stun and then it cant be stunned again for 10 seconds, even a giant should be able to be stunned from time to time.

    On a side not I've just realised the Fallen Factory boss is a fast as fk boi, bcz its a computer glitching. Terrible. Hate it. Least favourite boss fight in the game. Its not a skill based challenge. Its just shit and I am unapologetic about this opinion, quite upsetting since I actually like the rest of the dungeon.
     
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  13. FrozenEarth

    FrozenEarth Community Helper + Wiki Manager VIP+

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    Yeah, and that was insanely boring to get through all the HP and elemental defenses for a melee mob just helpless. So ideally, that should not happen.

    CC without CCI is just too wacky with the lack of spell cooldowns that, in other games, would be present to limit them, as well as the insane effects of some spells.

    CCI is good to have, just needs to be worked.
     
  14. Druser

    Druser ele defs don't matter HERO Featured Wynncraftian

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    To quote Jaydon: "I can take advantage of 1/3 of my class' skills every 45 seconds now instead of never"

    Exactly this. It's not impossible for CCI to be done in a way that benefits the game, but it's much better to not have a terrible CCI system that harms the game vs. waiting years and years for it to be fixed into something resembling usefulness.
     
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  15. Ninja_VK

    Ninja_VK RainbowsRcool VIP+

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    mildly disagree with this part as an archer main. I agree with the arrow shield part but without it ur making it sound way harder to avoid that it is. With the speed 3 it’s very easy to outrun just have a gales force or rte on the side or smth, or just do the escape from one side to the other repeatedly thing
     
  16. Selvut283

    Selvut283 Circadian rhythm stuck on Tokyo time Staff Member Moderator ♪ Music Item Team GM CHAMPION

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    Without CCI, too many things are stunlockable. That's the primary issue. I couldn't really just suggest "Hey, can you remove these defining characteristics of these spells?" to Salted, so I went with a resistance system and I really have tried my hardest to make them balanced for players. The reason so many bosses have blind immunity or resistance is twofold- Blind is insanely overpowered and can completely shut down a boss since it takes them so long to re-aggro that you can just blind them again before they see you without any consequence. That, and you can interrupt spell combos with it. I really did try pretty hard to make sure bosses didn't just have CCI stuff for the sake of having CCI stuff, I did try to go with what makes sense and limit it from the blunt-hammer approach of CCI's initial "don't have time to diversify it so here" implementation.

    Are there problems with it? Absolutely, but you're definitely exaggerating how bad it is pretty badly, especially the whole "45 seconds" considering there's very, very few enemies with timers above 10 seconds, which is a timer players are already used to as that's the average time between spell combos and how long it takes mobs to regenerate. Even if the core problems get fixed, CCI as a system can be used to fix various issues and make bosses more engaging.
     
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  17. Druser

    Druser ele defs don't matter HERO Featured Wynncraftian

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    And yet, Shaman is still considering unviable, Olily still dominates because it no longer has a relative weakness, etc. Clearly it's not working.
     
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  18. Selvut283

    Selvut283 Circadian rhythm stuck on Tokyo time Staff Member Moderator ♪ Music Item Team GM CHAMPION

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    Orange Lily being too strong is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with CCI, and Shaman is definitely hurt the hardest by Knockback resistance but I feel like that's you conflating your own opinion on Shaman with the community's.
     
  19. highbread

    highbread highbread HERO

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  20. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Shaggy. HERO

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    First off, yes that quote from me is over-exaggerated on purpose, it wasn't really for an argument, just to exemplify my frustration.
    Second off, I think CCI for blindness specifically, is a good change.
    My main issue is actually the inability for me to use any of my crowd control abilities.
    There are plenty of times where I want to use Bash or Uppercut in order to get an enemy out of my face to flee or to mitigate some damage being done to me, the issue being, these are also my main damage spells.
    Simply put, the immunities will be active when I need to use them, that or I'm insanely lucky. Blindness is one thing, because the spin attack is op, and the other two spells are situational enough that you can get away with not using them unless you do actually need to blind the enemy, but knockback and slowness? Two whole classes main of attacks are based around knockback, and slowness. They aren't situational tools, you use them 24/7, you can't get away with using them tactfully because of that.
     
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