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Choosing Attack Speeds On Crafted Weapons [97.3% Of 262] [250+ Supporters!]

Discussion in 'General Suggestions' started by Bart (MC), Jun 15, 2019.

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Do you agree with this suggestion?

  1. Yes, please add this.

    70.1%
  2. Just the current attack speeds are fine, but I do want to be able to choose.

    23.9%
  3. The idea is good, but it should be done differently (How?).

    3.4%
  4. Nope.

    2.6%
  1. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Ambivalence Cult HERO

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    This is the second version of this thread, if you want to see the first one it's in the spoiler down below.

    When crafting weapons of any kind, you'll end up with an attack speed of slow, normal or fast. Whichever one you'll get is completely random, and there no way of knowing which attacking speed you'll get.
    Attack speed affects mana- and life steal, how useful a weapon is for melee, how strong powders are, how good you can pierce elemental defenses, and maybe even other things. For some recipes of weapons, getting the right attack speed is very important (mainly when using ingredients with attack speed bonus), and this being random would just waste time and money on materials and ingredients whenever you have that 2/3 chance of getting the wrong attack speed.

    My suggestion is to allow people to choose whichever attack speed they want to craft their weapon with, which would also allow for both very fast and very slow to be added. I decided to not go for super slow and super fast as they're maybe too big extremes to properly balance some ingredients around.

    2019-12-04_21.03.54.png

    This is how I would imagine the updated crafting interface. All the current options are still on it, but there's one addition: the gray sword in the lower left corner, which will slowly 'fill up' as the attack speeds go higher. I added some temporary textures to show different attacking speed.
    Fully grayed out: Very Slow
    Gray with a bright grip: Slow
    Grip + Crossguard bright: Normal
    Only greyed out tip: Fast
    Fully bright: Very Fast
    I put all the different textures in the area where your crafted items go; this is just to get everything in one image, nothing would actually change in that part.

    When hovering over it, it would say something along the lines of:
    Change Attack Speed [Normal]
    The attack speed in brackets would of course change when clicking it to show the right speed.
    When you're clicking the checkmark to craft something, you should also be able to see the attack speed below what you're crafting.


    Another thought would be to change the attack speed of the weapon itself whenever using attack speed ingredients, and keep the current attack speeds (still being able to choose whichever one you want, mind you) as a base attack speed. (credit to @Comrade )

    As of right now, there are three attack speeds you can get on crafted weapons: slow, normal and fast.
    And there's no way of knowing which attack speed you're gonna get. This is frustrating for some people, as attack speed affect mana- and lifesteal, piercing of elemental defenses, and possible melee usage. This leads to having to craft a weapon (using expensive and/or rare ingredients) multiple times, simply because you need a certain attack speed for the weapon to function optimally.
    Just to give an example, I've seen people put negative or positive attack speed modifiers on weapons to get higher or lower attack speeds than currently possible, which would need fast and slow attack speed respectively.

    My suggestion to fix this, is by making people able to choose the attack speed of the weapon they're crafting, and consequently add super slow, very slow, very fast and super fast to those options. It would look something like this:
    2019-06-15_19.25.00.png
    Now, I'm aware I could've done a much better job in terms of recreating the crafting interface and adding the NBT data, but I think it's clear enough. The idea is basically:
    - That spot in the bottom left corner now contains a wool block. As the item says when hovering over it, it shows the current attack speed of the weapon you're going to craft, and is toggleable by left-clicking for a lower attack speed and right-clicking for a higher attack speed.
    - The 7 coloured wool blocks in my hotbar represent the 7 attack speeds, from left to right the slowest to the fastest.
    - Of course they don't have to be wool blocks, but I couldn't find any other items with a good visual indicator for 7 different things. Just a sword with text saying the attack speed or a completely new texture could work just as well.
    - I would also like to point out that this would (obviously) be limited to weaponsmithing and woodworking.

    Additional idea from @Quint :
    When an ingredient with an attack speed bonus is used, the attack speed of the weapon itself goes up (so the attack speed would only be an id past Super Slow and Super Fast). While this would only work when keeping the chosen attack speeds Slow, Normal and Fast, it would probably fix multiple balancing issues, as players would have less ingredient slots to, say, throw raw melee damage on a Super Fast weapon, as they've a;ready used multiple slots to boost the attack speed from fast to Super Fast.

    To end this suggestion, I'm aware this would take a while to implement, as (as far as I know) Jpresent was the main person working on this, and since he left, someone would have to first go and understand the code behind crafting to even begin work on this suggestion. I can still suggest though.

    Any and all feedback is appreciated, I'd like to hear other people's opinions on my suggestion, so I can improve it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
  2. Chronozilla

    Chronozilla Mistress of Dern HERO

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    I wonder if the limited available range was put in deliberately to prevent making powerful super slows and stack attack speed to make them overly strong.

    Would you take this freedom to choose your attack speed from the full range if it led to most damage related ingredients receiving a further nerf? I'm not too sure i would, but great suggestion nontheless!
     
  3. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Ambivalence Cult HERO

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    Yeah, that's something I only thought of afterwards. After looking around at some ingredients and testing the same weapon with some raw melee damage ones, with normal and super fast attack speed (with the damage converted of course), it does really show that some ingredients would be pretty busted. Compare https://wynndata.tk/s/G6Hk2b to https://wynndata.tk/s/KC3FiI, for example. 4.3k dps compared to almost 6k dps (without any armour or accesories, mind you). However, this difference is a lot smaller when using powders in the crafting recipe (https://wynndata.tk/s/m0yxsM with 3.7k dps compared to https://wynndata.tk/s/4eluUZ with 4.7k dps), so maybe just making powder slots go down when attack speed goes up (very fast & super fast 2 slots, very slow & super slow 4 slots?) might make it a lot more balanced.
    Still, I fully get that adding extra attacking speeds makes certain things very out of balance. I'll see if I can find any more big downsides, and I'll edit the suggestion with something along the lines of 'these things would create balancing issues'. Thanks for the feedback!
     
  4. quin tesser

    quin tesser host,"bumblefuck mcgee cooking show" HERO Builder

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    Creator Karma:
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    I think we could make it a lot simpler and more balanced:
    Add more + and -tier attack speed ingredients count towards attack speed. So if you have two ingredients, +1 tier each (+2 tier), and you roll slow, it would automatically go up from Slow to Normal to Fast. If you rolled Fast, it would go from Fast to Very Fast to Super fast, etc. and vice versa. This way, we get the benefits of choosing attack speeds, less hypothetical development time, and a balance to it (Higher or Lower speed at the cost of Ingredient Slots).
     
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  5. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Ambivalence Cult HERO

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    That's actually a really good idea, I'll add it in. Thanks!
     
    quin tesser likes this.
  6. YYGAYMER

    YYGAYMER reeeee FW FW HIC Master HERO Featured Wynncraftian

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    bump

    e

    bump
     
    Iboju and Bart (MC) like this.
  7. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Ambivalence Cult HERO

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  8. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Ambivalence Cult HERO

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    hey hey this would still be pretty nice no have, might clean the original post up a bit but it's a shame the attack speeds are still random so here's another bump
     
    Druser likes this.
  9. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Ambivalence Cult HERO

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    I always forget to bump this

    Here's another one
     
  10. Melkor

    Melkor The dark enemy of the world HERO

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    If they used the current guidelines for damage based on attack speed to make a formula to scale the damage and maybe scaled damage % id's this would be reasonably balanced. It would be a net buff for both melee and spell builds, so I wouldn't particularly mind some small nerfs to damage id's to balance that out.
     
  11. Asthae

    Asthae ... HERO

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    We really need this.
    like really really...
     
  12. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Ambivalence Cult HERO

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    Bumped, if it gets added in 1.19 (very unlikely) I'll do HICH
     
  13. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Ambivalence Cult HERO

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    We have two sudden "no" votes, my suggestion is going downhill
    If I ever have some free time I'll redo the example images with a proper recreation of the crafting GUI, and maybe give some actually good-looking solutions.
    I'm really good at wasting time though.
     
  14. GoulartJJ

    GoulartJJ Why am i still here HERO

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    b u m p

    b u m p

    b u m p
     
  15. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Ambivalence Cult HERO

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    I updated the suggestion! Woo!
    Normally I wouldn't do this, but just this once I'm going to tag the people who voted against this in the hopes they can either explain what they dislike, or change their vote.
    @Mac N Cheese Man @Tsuruga @Toonlord27 @Coragon42 @Wynnonymous @cjakeb5 @CountBurn @cjshra01
     
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  16. Mac N Cheese Man

    Mac N Cheese Man First Official Member Of The Mac N Cheese Club

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    I feel that it should be ingredients that decide the attack speed, to make it more in line with how ingredients work currently. I mean, what's the point of giving yourself a lower attack speed? If this were implemented like this, all I could see is people just using the highest tier attack speed. But, as that was already mentioned, I didn't bother to post why I would change this idea. And, yes, I know you have that few word thing at the bottom, but it isn't the main idea of this thread.
     
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  17. Druser

    Druser ele defs don't matter HERO Featured Wynncraftian

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    There are benefits, but yeah I don't see people choosing anything other than the fastest and slowest speeds. I do think the use of ingredients to modify base attack speed is a better option.
     
  18. Mac N Cheese Man

    Mac N Cheese Man First Official Member Of The Mac N Cheese Club

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    You're fast, wow.

    Also, yeah. Thanks for agreeing.
     
  19. NagisaStreams

    NagisaStreams certified idiot Staff Member Moderator QA HERO

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    Being the certified idiot I am, even after all this time I still don't know what attack speed does other than your literal speed
    I hear it has a lot to do with certain stats but i got no clue lmao
     
  20. Coragon42

    Coragon42 Build Maker in Training HERO

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    The lower the attack speed, the higher the base damage (in general). This is to balance out the base melee dps, but with tierstacking, slower attack speed items are better for melee (as you can get higher base damage with super fast attack speed), and the higher base damage just allows for higher spell damage overall (I think, but I may be wrong about this second point).

    As for affecting other stats, that's purely just due to how fast you can hit (people may want to get good mana steal/life steal chances by hitting fast without having to resort to tierstack).
    ________________________________
    Now, to be honest, looking back at this, I'm not so sure if I have a way to change this. However, I did remember how I didn't like the system of manually paying for an attack speed.

    Besides the already-brought-up point of the uselessness of normal attack speed, I think that maybe this should be RNG'd (like rerolling after you craft it) in order to prevent crafted items from becoming overpowered.

    However, a lot of the Wynncraft community already hates absurd RNG like mythic drop chances, so I'm not sure.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2019
    Bart (MC) likes this.