Website & Forums Better Class Descriptions

AcadeeAlkana · Nov 14, 2022

Note: This Suggestion DOES NOT CHANGE how the Classes function. It's effects are be purely visual and/or psychological.

This is NOT the only way to improve this aspect of Wynncraft, unlike what I may unintentionally imply.
...Okay, Statistics system change: Take Two!

Wynncraft's Help Page does a decent job at stating what the Classes were designed for: It's not intentionally misleading, the punctuation is on-point in terms of English, and it has the basic courtesy to not leave readers in the dark on basic details. It's one of many things I wish Ubisoft realized when making Sparks of Hope.

It clearly states things such as the exact (and/or intended) Spell DMG, Blocks of Range, and Mana Cost of each Spell. Sure, it's only for their pre-2.0 versions, but since the Spellbound Update is still in early access, it's good enough to describe the state of the Classes in the early game.

...And I personally believe that there's an issue that arises from describing how a Class was intended to work. Multiple, in fact.

Most Classes don't have their crowd-controlling (CC) potential described, the exceptions being Warrior and Shaman, who thrives at CC. Not Warrior, just Shaman.

Both the Help Page and the above point imply that Warrior has more meaningful CC than Assassin.

There's an argument to be made for Shaman having 5 DMG against non-Boss mobs (which make up a huge part of the enemy roster, anyways), but it doesn't mention how much Shaman can struggle against a tanky CCI melee enemy or high-HP Boss.

Warrior is not a 4 DMG Class. In my experience with them in both the Hero Beta and pre-2.0 Wynncraft, it has 3 DMG at best.

Warrior's 5 DEF implies that it has better survivability than Mage. Suffice to say, they don't.

Shaman's 4 RAN stat is supposed to describe it's massive AoEs...But every other Class using RAN to describe their actual effective range implies that Shaman works well at a greater distance than Mage.

Spells shouldn't be bad on ANY Class. If Spells weren't so incredibly flexible and able to be built around, things like the "Bazook-Uproot" (nicknamed the "Uproot Gun") wouldn't exist!

I know I mentioned them a lot already, but can we PLEASE get a Warrior buff? Do it for the fine folks trying to play the worst melee Class in a game that's 90% melee enemies!

If you want the big bullet list of problems I could find in the descriptive system/predict that it could cause, click the Spoiler above this sentence. Without further ado, here's...

A New Class Statistics System
Designed by Acadee
To make the lives of newer players a bit easier

If you want to hear my nerdy rants/explanations of the Statistics, as well as how I'm rating the Classes in terms of each Statistic, open the "More Info" Spoiler beneath each Stat's basic description. If you're only interested in the simple, funny summaries like I am, just scroll down to "The Classes' New Stats" section.

Damage
How quickly a Class can output DMG. Basically their DPS.

I've already tried my hand at splitting the different roles of DMG-dealing options in my last Statistics post. Like most of my early suggestions, it was purely included on a whim, and, more importantly, it didn't work.

For those curious, a year or two ago, I suggested a stat called Shredding in an attempt to define a Class' single-target DPS. It was originally conceived as an explanation for early-game Shaman's Spells being better at heavily damaging crowds than high-HP targets or Bosses.

Classes already have a metric ton of Items to define their DPS, and having a type of Damage Stat for single-targets would be redundant. I can't think of a hard-hitting Spell that doesn't have at least some form of AoE.

TL;DR: If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and yes, I tried to fix it.

Range
The distance a Class can viably engage their opponents from. Doesn't consider the maximum range.

This iteration of Range is purely for more accurately describing each Class' effective range. Thank Shaman for the changes to this Stat, because I personally never use them as a long range Class.

I did consider suggesting a secondary Range stat for describing how large each Class' Areas of Effect (AoEs) can get, but it'd be irrelevant due to each and every Class having at least one decent AoE, anyways.

Control
How easily a Class can get into an advantageous state or force their enemies into a disadvantage. Includes Crowd Control and Combat Options.

The second case of "I made this Stat for Shaman and would you look at that, it works on every Class!" The first case was the Effective Range description.

Another thing it notes is how easy it is to do anything to yourself or enemies while you're in range. Assassin has very bad Control due to how risky trying to Crowd Control can be.

Recovery
Defines how well a Class can regenerate their resources and how quickly they can get themselves out of a disadvantageous position. Includes Healing, Mana Regeneration, and reliable Panic Options.

It always bothers me how little emphasis official Wynncraft sources place on actually recovering from taking damage or managing resources.

Most early game Items (from Levels 1-50, at least) also fall into the trap of dismissing the significance of HP and Mana. They either grant you so little Regen and/or Steal that you need to dedicate a whole Build to make them significant, or actively try to kill you with Negative Regen.

In my experience, early-game Items do an awful job at foreshadowing the absurd potential of late-game builds by buffing you just a liiiiittle bit before sending your Elemental Defense 50 points into the negative just in case a game-breaking exploit were to lean the balance in your favor. (This basically never happens.)

Risk
How easily and quickly things can go wrong for a Class.

Risk is a replacement for Difficulty, since the Classes aren't that hard to understand. Mastery of a Class' options is tough, but competence eventually becomes mandatory no matter who you pick, anyways.

Unfortunately, not every Stat could make the cut for this new system...

Spells
When first thought of, this actually makes sense: Some Classes should have attacks and options which outperform their Spells, if only for sake of variety.

...The problem is that Spells not only make up 90% of a Class' utility, team support, and mobility, but are also the most important offensive options in the game by design. A Class having bad Spells in Wynncraft is often a death sentence!

My biggest reason for removing the Spell stat is that no Class deserves to have a bad Spell. Beyond the base potential of a Class, choosing to take an axe to 80% of your Class' variety with a Garbage-Spells Build would be your fault. Unless your luck with Items is as awful as mine, but Item RNG is a big, fat can of Ranged Enemies that I don't have time to open right now.

Defense
The idea of defense is simple: It's how many hits you can take before everyone near the closest spawn point feels at least partially obligated to mock you for having "skill issues." In a more official sense, it's supposed to define a Class' survivability.

...However, defining the amount of DMG a Class can take before dying is only able to describe a PART of it's survivability.

What happens when you introduce a Class that is defensive, but not in this conventional sense? After all, camping in one spot and killing everything that walks into range before they can hit you technically counts as playing defensively. In a sense, Shaman is more defensive than Warrior through utilizing their Healing-and-DMG Totem Spell alone! And what about using speed and mobility to run away? That also counts as survivability. In fact, having high mobility paired with the max HP of a plastic ramen cup is often superior to having doubled DEF paired with low mobility. Dodging, running from disadvantages, and preventing enemies from hitting you makes up a huge part of defensive play in Wynncraft.

The Classes' New Stats
*That Acadee would describe them with
**Given that their ideal balance matched/reflected their descriptions well

Each Class gets 15 Points for their Stat Spread's description. 13 doesn't cut it when describing Classes with 5 different categories, in my opinion.

Warrior
DMG: 3
RAN: 1
CON: 4
REC: 4
SPD: 3
Risk: Average (2/3)

Damage - 3
I wanted to give them 4, but Warrior's DPS only makes the cut for a 3 due to their lacking range. Should they deal a ton of DMG once they're in range? Absolutely - the best tanks have cannons, after all!

Range - 1
Warrior has to do a lot of running towards and away from their enemies. When 3/4 of their Spells are melee, this awful Range is to be expected.

Control - 4
Of all the problems Warrior struggles with, keeping enemies where they want 'em shouldn't be one. High survivability and CC are combined to emulate a Rushdown fighter as a Class, getting pelted with projectiles, but getting to combo enemy Zoners into oblivion once they get in range.

Recovery - 4
Give. Warrior. SELF. HEALING!

Speed - 3
Some Builds can make Warrior's preferred pronoun an Attack Spellicopter...But Charge spam doesn't make up a lot of their Builds. At least Charge is decent at closing gaps and running away!

"Warriors can stand their ground against almost anything. Their high survivability allow them to fight for longer than any other Class, and their strong Crowd Control can quickly displace and weaken any exceptions to this or combo them to the heavens."

Archer
DMG: 4
RAN: 5
CON: 2
REC: 1
SPD: 4
Risk: Average (2/3)

Damage - 4
In a perfect world, DPS Assassins frequently beat out DPS Archers. The latter can still shove a quiver of DMG up the back end of anybody they damn please, though!

Range - 5
I mean, of course the "hits anything in Render Distance" Class would qualify for 5 Range!

Control - 2
Archer lacks Crowd Control because they have so much Speed. A single Hitstun doesn't stop enemies much, but 50 Hitstuns to the face gets the job done just fine. Arrow Shield is allowed to be in Archer's default loadout, too!

Recovery - 1
Archer dies very quickly. If you're scrambling to stay alive, you're either going to die in the next 5 seconds or your enemy is on the verge of sneezing in your direction.

Speed - 4
"Whose idea was it to give the SNIPER Class SPEED III?...Because this feels amazing!" - Me, 2 years ago

"Archers are formidable at any range, whether that be further than most can see, or within blades' range. No adversary escapes them without an Arrow in their knee, face, groin, shoulder, backside, back end..."

Mage
DMG: 3
RAN: 2
CON: 2
REC: 5
SPD: 3
Risk: Low (1/3)

Damage - 3
Mage is in the same boat as 2.0 Warrior: They can definitely deal DMG (Meteors go PHWEEEEW-KBOOM), but not as easily as the other Classes.

Range - 2
Mage is surprisingly ineffective at mid-range due to the travel time of Ice Snake and how far away from each other enemies will usually spawn. Usually, their AoEs only do some real good once enemies clump up.

Control - 2
Ice Snake definitely sounds like it'd be awesome, especially in the wake of [ULTRAKILL SPOILER BOSS], who also wields serpents...But it's quite literally Mage's only CC Spell. Nothing else helps.

Recovery - 5
Every other Class would kill to have Heal OR Teleport, but Mage just casually sits on BOTH OF THEM! With proper resource management, Mage can outlive any other Class without any support from Potions or Food!

Speed - 3
Teleport is busted for escaping from combat and enemy attacks, but surprisingly doesn't go that far. Warping forwards 8 blocks at a time can often pale in comparison to the other Second Spells, which give you a temporary puck-ton of velocity to fly through the air with.

"Mages are incredibly versatile thanks to their potent Spells, and what they use their privileged might for is dependent on what they fancy in the moment. Feats such as flying across the world through teleportation alone and summoning Meteors are just another page in their tales."

Assassin
DMG: 5
RAN: 2
CON: 1
REC: 3
SPD: 4
Risk: High (3/3)

Damage - 5
Assassin's a more traditional glass cannon: The kind that dies as quickly as they can kill things.

Range - 2
Why does Assassin have more Range than Warrior? They have more things to throw at their enemies: Builds can give them shurikens and throwing knives, while Smoke Bomb is a decent ranged support option. They can also follow up on these ranged options better thanks to their high Speed.

Control - 2
Assassin usually wants to end their fights with sheer DMG output before Crowd Control is even necessary. The extra CON point comes from their ability to pick fights or run away.

Recovery - 3
Invisibility is great until you need to switch off your Dagger to heal with Potions or Food. Getting to effectively turn invulnerable is still strong enough to warrant this, though.

Speed - 3
The ground speed buffs from Vanish put it on par with the other Classes when not accounting for vertical mobility, which Vanish is still quite decent at! Nothing wrong with having a reliable double jump in parkour sections.

"Assassination is an incredibly dangerous line of work, blessed with the highest close-range damage output in the game at the cost of low endurance. Immoral warfare certainly isn't new, but the Dagger behind you probably is."

Shaman
DMG: 4
RAN: 3
CON: 5
REC: 2
SPD: 1
Risk: High (3/3)

Damage - 4
While Shaman is deadly, the DMG is usually spread across a crowd of enemies. Totem, Aura, and Uproot can dish out tons of DMG to any target, but not as much as Multihit or Arrow Storm can to a single target.

Range - 3
Shaman just about matches Mage in terms of forwards-reaching attacks. I think their 4 Range was supposed to describe how wide the AoEs can get, but that's a bit redundant. Also, Shaman is rarely used for hanging back and relaxing, if ever.

Control - 5
Shaman's hitboxes are incredibly lenient, to the point of making it hard to miss a target if you're even half decent at aiming. I'd personally call it a 4, but Shaman is meant to be the game's "Crowd-B-Gone" Class, so it earns the fifth CON point by being able to hit several things with every attack.

Recovery - 2
Based on how I view Shaman, it's barely not a 1, given that they HAVE a way to heal that's actually decent.

Speed - 1
Having to use their main damage, healing, and buff source as a slow-flying grappling hook doesn't favor Shaman's escape options much.

"The dance of a Shaman demands good positioning and proper awareness of themselves, their Totemic partner, and their audience. Akin to the finest performances, a single mistake will end in death."

...I spent a week writing and detailing this, so please consider commenting to make it more worth my while! I enjoy reading through comments during my freetime.

lemonalade · Nov 16, 2022

AcadeeAlkana said: ↑

Warrior's 5 DEF implies that it has better survivability than Mage. Suffice to say, they don't.
Click to expand...

Defense is regarding the base resistance of a class. Warrior has 100% (up to 110%) HAD 120%* while Mage only has 80%. This isn't misleading at all, it's purely stating how much damage the class receives.

AcadeeAlkana said: ↑

I know I mentioned them a lot already, but can we PLEASE get a Warrior buff? Do it for the fine folks trying to play the worst melee Class in a game that's 90% melee enemies!
Click to expand...

I personally don't believe warrior needs a buff. There's a reason why Fallen has been getting repeatedly nerfed, and that is due to the insane damage potential. And I won't even talk about Paladin because, well, TNA and other bosses. Tbh Warrior is probably the most balanced class out there right now regarding the mixture between all its archetypes. Also worth mentioning it has access to a Strength and Resistance buff that no other class has (Shaman sort of has it with masks but it has heavy restrictions).

AcadeeAlkana said: ↑

Give. Warrior. SELF. HEALING!
Click to expand...

Rally: allow me to introduce myself. In all seriousness though, all classes SHOULD NOT have some form of self healing. The whole point of a class is that it's unique and excels in some factors while struggling in others. If all classes could self heal, then it would just boil down to which class has more damage. Potions already exist, and arguably insanely overpowered, so every class already has survivability.

AcadeeAlkana said: ↑

I think their 4 Range was supposed to describe how wide the AoEs can get, but that's a bit redundant
Click to expand...

Shaman range a bit weird since their melee also has like a 30 block range or something, and also Summoner doesn't really need to worry about AoE but still has good range.

Ok now for my input (I promise I didn't comment just to bash on your stuff lol). Ultimately, yeah the class descriptions could stand for some updating, but it definitely needs to be archetype based. Light Bender cannot compare to Arcanist for multiple reasons: 1) Light Bender literally has no Crowd Control and 2) Arcanist has built in sustain. So I think giving mage a 3 on recovery is ultimately not gonna suffice if we're trying to aim for accuracy. Another example: Fallen has outstanding damage potential. Paladin is um... lackluster, at best. Wynncraft pre 2.0 had 5 classes. Wynncraft post 2.0 has 15. A class isn't really recognizable as a class anymore since archetypes basically replaced the base class ENTIRELY so every Archetype should be taken into account when trying to provide stats.

Here's personally what I believe the stats should be like:

DAMAGE: Pretty straight forward, how much damage an archetype can output, however this would really only focus on Spell Damage. Why? Sure, some archetypes (Shadestepper and Fallen) are better geared towards Melee compared to others (Acrobat and Paladin), but the archetypes that are better for Melee also coincidentally have high Spell Damage potential. That's why I think it's acceptable to mash both into one: 2.0 is designed with spells in mind. A Fallen build that gets 50k Melee attacks is still comparable to a Fallen Build with 30k Uppercuts, it's purely based on build. If we completely ignore builds and look at the base stats holding a Normal Tier Weapon, spells are more or less guaranteed to overpower melee damage.
TLDR: Archetypes that have melee viable options on average end up dishing out around the same amount of DPS as a spell based build

The Damage stat shouldn't take bosses or specific environments into account, just purely the damage the spells/melee deal. If we start taking specific situations into account, then it gets way too complicated and subjective since some classes (Archer) have way better DPS against bosses than others (Shaman), whereas in situations with large groups of enemies, the inverse is true. Seeing a spell deal 40k damage is enough to determine whether or not that is high or low damage, no matter what scenario the user is in.

DEFENSE: Base Resistance. Simple as that. How much damage does the Archetype receive DISREGARDING any form of healing. We'll come back to that later. For this I'm going to have 100% base resistance be equal to 4/5 and every 1/5 will equal a 10% increase or decrease.

RANGE: This one might be a bit confusion but for this I'm focused on how far the player needs to be from the mobs to actually damage them.

AoE: I do believe that AoE needs to be separate from Range, especially with how much archetypes change spells. Battle Monk has an ability that turns Uppercut into an attack that hits all around the user. That can't be compared to base Uppercut.

Survivability: Now this one is tricky. This is going to take into account base resistance along with healing capabilities built into the Archetype, as well as any other additional abilities.

You'll notice I got rid of some stats you added. Control was more or less turned into AoE. Where's Speed? Speed is entirely irrelevant. Why? Heavy spell vs Spell Spam. Heavy melee vs Tier Stack. Walk speed. Spell Macros. Everything is build and player based. One person may deal on average 50k DPS while another person with the exact same build could be much more skilled and deal 100k DPS. This stat has absolutely nothing to do with archetypes just due to the nature of how the game works, and therefore should not be considered.

Now that I laid those out, this is how I personally would rank each specific Archetype stat wise:

Fallen:
DMG: 4.5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 2/5
AOE: 2/5
SURV: 1/5

Notes: Fallen has high damage potential, which is why its given a 4.5 (Ragnarokkr too!). It's strong, but not the strongest. Warrior, having 100% base resistance, is ranked at a 4/5. Fallen doesn't have outstanding range and the only decent AoE is Massive Bash. Additionally, the survivability factor is low since you have to be at low health, but I did take into account Intoxicating Blood which is why it isn't a fat 0.

Battle Monk:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 2.5/5
SURV: 3/5

Notes: Battle Monk has decent damage due to its spell spam playstyle and Discombobulate. Once again, same base Warrior chunkiness. The range is slightly better on Battle Monk since it gets access to Half Moon Swipe and Whirlwind Strike, which improve Uppercut range. It also has decent AoE due to Thunderclap and Whirlwind Strike. The survivability is subjective, it's either a 3 or 3.5 because Battle Monk has a ton of movement, especially regarding flying Monk. Additionally, Counter can also provide additional survivability since Counter completely negates damage if it triggers, but that is entirely reliant on the build being used since it is Agility based.

Paladin:
DMG: 1.5/5
DEF: 5/5
RANG: 2/5
AOE: 1/5
SURV: 4/5

Notes: We already know Paladin's damage. Probably the worst in the game. Paladin easily has the best defense due to Mantle and the additional +10% base resistance. Paladin ultimately has the same range as Fallen, disregarding Massive Bash and Quad Bash, Provoke helps Paladin but doesn't increase its range. Paladin has 0 AOE abilities except Provoke, so it sits at a pitiful 1. Survivability is extremely high due to Mantle once again, with Rejuvenating Skin helping to mitigate some damage. Furthermore, Second Chance is also HUGE, giving the player free death immunity.

Boltslinger:
DMG: 4/5
DEF: 1/5
RANG: 4.5/5
AOE: 2/5
SURV: 1/5

Notes: Archer is always gonna be the DPS machine. Boltslinger may not be the best, but it can whip out some high numbers still. 1/5 Defense is just translated to 70% base resistance. Boltslinger has some good range on it, probably the second best in the game, but I didn't place it at 5/5 since Sharpshooter gets access to some stuff that improve its range (Also GA can only shoot so far). Boltslinger actually does have some AoE due to Arrow Storm spread and GA, but it's not a massive amount. The reason why Survivability isn't 0 is because of 2 things: Stormy Feet and Frenzy. That gives Archer enough mobility to effectively dodge whatever is coming their way

Sharpshooter:
DMG: 5/5
DEF: 1/5
RANG: 5/5
AOE: 1/5
SURV: 0.5/5

Notes: Sharpshooter is the only one worthy of a 5/5 damage ranking. Easily the highest damage potential in the entire game, there's no real competition. Defense was already discussed above. Now Range might be controversial since Sharpshooter needs to be close for Homing Shots, but let me explain my reasoning for 5/5: Shocking Bomb and Twain's Arc. If those were not in consideration, I'd rank Sharpshooter as a 4 probably. Sharpshooter has very minimal AoE, with the extent being Arrow Shield, Bomb Arrow and Fire Creep (this one mainly). Sharpshooter also has no survivability except "kill things before it kills you" but the only reason why it's not 0 is because of Crepuscular Ray since that lifts you into the air out of melee range (like I said, it's not enough of an excuse to warrant it as survivability but it still does technically help you survive)

Trapper:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 1/5
RANG: 4/5
AOE: 4/5
SURV: 0/5

Notes: Trapper is an interesting one. While realistically, the damage might be low, for these damage rankings I look at archetypes at their full power, so this means maximum Basaltic Traps that are fully charged. Having all of those go off can pack a punch, but I didn't rank it as 4/5 because realistically, you won't be able to hit your targets with all your Traps fully charged at once. Defense is the same as before. Now remember, Range is different from AoE, so Trapper can still plant traps from a distance. Regarding AoE, I didn't rank it a 5 because even though traps can be spread out, there are still a lot of gaps where mobs may be able to dodge damage, but overall having numerous traps with AoE give Trapper a lot of ground to cover (don't forget Call of the Hound!). And finally, while Trapper does get more Arrow Shields, base Trapper loses Escape and like Sharpshooter, also doesn't get Speed, leaving it extremely vulnerable which is why it has a 0/5 for survivability.

Riftwalker:
DMG: 4/5
DEF: 2/5
RANG: 3.5/5
AOE: 1.5/5
SURV: 3.5/5

Notes: Riftwalker, another strong archetype! Winded has gotten nerfed a couple times like Fallen due to the sheer damage potential, but it still has quite a lot, which is worthy of a 4/5 ranking. Defense, as stated with archer, is just a translation to 80% resistance. Riftwalker has decent range, due to Ice Snake and Meteor, and the extended melee attack. Mage has subpar AoE, but Riftwalker actually can make better use of it due to winded. Nonetheless, it still doesn't have much to work with. Riftwalker has good survivability, given that is has a Heal spell, and furthermore Devitalize can boost its survivability more

Light Bender:
DMG: 2/5
DEF: 2/5
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 0.5/5
SURV: 5/5

Notes: Light Bender is a fantastic option for those who want to be support. Unfortunately, like Paladin, Light Bender's damage is awful (unless you pair it with Winded but that's not what we're doing here), and Fortitude is only thing that gives Light Bender a slight edge over Paladin regarding Damage. Defense is self explanatory. Light Bender has decent range, with Ophanim being able to travel around 20 blocks. However, the AoE is non existent. Light Bender is single target damage and Light Weaver is hardly worthy of "AoE damage", but it still does exist so it'll net only 0.5 points. And naturally, Light Bender has an impressive 45% BASE max health Heal spell, giving it some of the best survivability in the game.

Arcanist:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 2/5
RANG: 4/5
AOE: 3/5
SURV: 0/5

Notes: Arcanist is actually a lot stronger than people give it credit for, gaining some big damage boosts for Meteor. Furthermore, the Mana Bank allows for frequent spell casting, allowing Arcanist to constantly dish out damage. Defense has been explained. I rated Arcanist with higher range than Riftwalker due to Psychokinesis since that has added range. Arcanist has decent AoE purely due to Snake Nest as well as Chaos Explosion, allowing multiple meteor strikes to create a large AoE. Unfortunately, Arcanist suffers compared to the other Mage archetypes due to the fact it loses its heal spell and doesn't have any abilities that increase its life steal.

Shadestepper:
DMG: 5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 1/5
AOE: 2/5
SURV: 2.5/5

Note: Shadestepper is the very definition of Assassin, being able to easily one-shot enemies which gives it an impressive 5/5 damage ranking, since typically you will be utilizing Satsujin and Marked to your full advantage. Just like Warrior, 4/5 Defense translates to 100% resistance. Shadestepper has very low range since you need to run up to enemies, and while it has access to Better Smoke Bomb, it still doesn't change the fact that Backstab/Melee is Shadestepper's main source of damage. Shadestepper gets some AoE due to Black Hole and Spin Attack, as well as Violent Vortex which is more useful than people may think it is. Now the survivability is weird on Shadestepper and very situational. On one hand, being able to constantly chain vanish allows the user to stay invisible for long periods of time, but sometimes they are unable to do that due to the long 5 second Vanish Cooldown (and also no healing while Vanished), which is ultimately why I placed the survivability at the halfway point.

Trickster:
DMG: 2.5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 4/5
SURV: 3.5/5

Notes: Trickster is a very unique archetype, being able to take on a damage role when paired with Shadestepper or a Support role on its own. The Clones do hurt the user's damage, but when all Clones are active, having 7 Spin Attacks go off can add up (assuming all hit). Despite that, realistically the user will not be in that situation so the damage nerf will be more detrimental than anything. Defense was discussed. Trickster has boosted Range and AoE due to the Clones, and Lured can help make things easier, similar to Provoke. Trickster has decent survivability due to the damage reduction of Clones, but like Shadestepper's situational flaw, it cannot chain Vanish.

Acrobat:
DMG: 3/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 3.5/5
AOE: 3.5/5
SURV: 4.5/5

Note: Acrobat surprisingly has some pretty high rankings, obtaining quite a few Multihit upgrades to boost its damage, but usually the user will probably not be using Multihit too often and relying primarily on Smoke Bomb and Jasmine Bloom for damage, which isn't too significant on its own. Defense was stated earlier. Acrobat has some pretty decent range, but unlike the other Archetypes, it's more vertical than horizontal, utilizing Shurikens and Jasmine Bloom, as well as Smoke Bomb. Because Acrobat utilizes range in a much different manner, I still decided to rank it high since typically the user will still be out of melee range. Regarding AoE, Jasmine Bloom and Triple Smoke Bomb give Acrobat a lot of passive damage, so it's able to cover a lot of ground below. Acrobat arguably has some of the best survivability in the game since pairing Weightless with Jasmine Bloom means constant mana sustain, allowing the user to stay airborne and out of enemy range for a substantial amount of time, completely negating the requirement of needing to heal.

Summoner:
DMG: 4/5
DEF: 0/5
RANG: 4/5
AOE: 5/5
SURV: 2.5/5

Notes: Summoner is yet another powerful archetype, utilizing tons of summons to deal damage, giving it a high passive damage output, and with the addition of Spells, it deserves a 4/5 ranking. 0/5 Defense translates to 60% Resistance. Puppet range is actually pretty good, and Crimson Effigies can also get up close to damage opponents. Summoner has the best AoE in the game due to a whopping 3 Totems, giving it a massive amount of ground to cover. While the Totems give Summoner passive health regeneration, it usually isn't enough to offset any damage the user takes due to Shaman's low defense, giving it's Survivability a subpar ranking.

Ritualist:
DMG: 3/5 • 1.5/5 • 2.5/5
DEF: 0/5 • 3.5/5 • -1/5 (lol negative)
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 3.5/5
SURV: 1/5 • 3/5 • 2.5/5

Notes: You'll immediately notice I ranked Ritualist very differently, and that's because Ritualist has the unique ability to switch between an Offensive, Defensive, and Mobile state. None of those can actively be compared together, so they each needed their own ranking (Rankings from left to right are Lunatic, Fanatic, Coward). For starters, Mask of Lunatic unfortunately received a harsh nerf recently, which does hurt Ritualist's damage potential a lot, especially since base Ritualist doesn't receive Rebound or Shocking Aura. Fanatic also gives Ritualist a damage decrease, while Coward doesn't alter the damage. In terms of defense, Lunatic doesn't change anything, but Fanatic gives Ritualist a bonus +35% base resistance which is really good. Coward reduces Ritualist's resistance to a horrid 40%, putting it in the negatives based on the scale I used. As for range, Ritualist does alright considering it has a Totem, but it also loses Uproot, leaving the range at average at best. In terms of AoE, it also isn't too bad due to Totem, but base Ritualist only receives a single Totem, but Storm Dance does have some usefulness to it, and Better Totem adds a hefty +4 Blocks on the Totem range. Now for survivability: Lunatic gives negative walk speed which greatly hurts Ritualist's mobility, especially since Haul is sluggish, leaving the user as an open target waiting to get brutalized. Fanatic allows the user to actually tank attacks (especially with Chant of Fanatic) but the only thing that hurts its survivability besides Haul is Seeking Totem, since the Totems will actively be moving away from you, putting the user in danger if they want to passively restore health. Coward gives a truck load of mobility which helps offset the poor resistance, and Frog Dance can sometimes help the user avoid damage depending on the situation.

Acolyte:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 0/5
RANG: 3.5/5
AOE: 3.5/5
SURV: 2.5/5

Notes: Acolyte has proven to be a unique archetype that, unlike Light Bender, can heal and deal damage, and at a much faster rate too. Acolyte gets access to Shocking Aura, Rebound, and Vengeful Spirit, not to mention Sacrificial Shrine also boosting Aura damage, giving it big damage, especially when paired with Lunatic (which we are not looking at here), which can ultimately make it output more damage than Ritualist. Acolyte still retains the base 60% resistance. Acolyte can also get Better Totem to further the AoE range, and Blood Sorrow does give the user a ranged attack. Unlike Ritualist, Acolyte also has Uproot to play around with. Some may be surprised by the survivability ranking due to the large heal potential that Acolyte has (remember, base Acolyte gets 1 Totem). The user must sacrifice HP in order to heal themselves, and with Shaman's low defense, that puts them at risk of being killed more easily since they have low health. So while the heal reward is nice, the risk is also detrimental.

Not sure how long this took to write, couple hours, but that's my take on the whole situation. I feel as if I made accurate estimates due to my experience with each Archetype and their functionality but hey, maybe some numbers are off. Either way, I like the general idea that you were aiming for and I think with some adjustments it could turn out pretty well!

point_line · Nov 16, 2022

lemonalade said: ↑

Defense is regarding the base resistance of a class. Warrior has 100% (up to 110%) while Mage only has 80%. This isn't misleading at all, it's purely stating how much damage the class receives.

I personally don't believe warrior needs a buff. There's a reason why Fallen has been getting repeatedly nerfed, and that is due to the insane damage potential. And I won't even talk about Paladin because, well, TNA and other bosses. Tbh Warrior is probably the most balanced class out there right now regarding the mixture between all its archetypes. Also worth mentioning it has access to a Strength and Resistance buff that no other class has (Shaman sort of has it with masks but it has heavy restrictions).

Rally: allow me to introduce myself. In all seriousness though, all classes SHOULD NOT have some form of self healing. The whole point of a class is that it's unique and excels in some factors while struggling in others. If all classes could self heal, then it would just boil down to which class has more damage. Potions already exist, and arguably insanely overpowered, so every class already has survivability.

Shaman range a bit weird since their melee also has like a 30 block range or something, and also Summoner doesn't really need to worry about AoE but still has good range.

Ok now for my input (I promise I didn't comment just to bash on your stuff lol). Ultimately, yeah the class descriptions could stand for some updating, but it definitely needs to be archetype based. Light Bender cannot compare to Arcanist for multiple reasons: 1) Light Bender literally has no Crowd Control and 2) Arcanist has built in sustain. So I think giving mage a 3 on recovery is ultimately not gonna suffice if we're trying to aim for accuracy. Another example: Fallen has outstanding damage potential. Paladin is um... lackluster, at best. Wynncraft pre 2.0 had 5 classes. Wynncraft post 2.0 has 15. A class isn't really recognizable as a class anymore since archetypes basically replaced the base class ENTIRELY so every Archetype should be taken into account when trying to provide stats.

Here's personally what I believe the stats should be like:

DAMAGE: Pretty straight forward, how much damage an archetype can output, however this would really only focus on Spell Damage. Why? Sure, some archetypes (Shadestepper and Fallen) are better geared towards Melee compared to others (Acrobat and Paladin), but the archetypes that are better for Melee also coincidentally have high Spell Damage potential. That's why I think it's acceptable to mash both into one: 2.0 is designed with spells in mind. A Fallen build that gets 50k Melee attacks is still comparable to a Fallen Build with 30k Uppercuts, it's purely based on build. If we completely ignore builds and look at the base stats holding a Normal Tier Weapon, spells are more or less guaranteed to overpower melee damage.
TLDR: Archetypes that have melee viable options on average end up dishing out around the same amount of DPS as a spell based build

The Damage stat shouldn't take bosses or specific environments into account, just purely the damage the spells/melee deal. If we start taking specific situations into account, then it gets way too complicated and subjective since some classes (Archer) have way better DPS against bosses than others (Shaman), whereas in situations with large groups of enemies, the inverse is true. Seeing a spell deal 40k damage is enough to determine whether or not that is high or low damage, no matter what scenario the user is in.

DEFENSE: Base Resistance. Simple as that. How much damage does the Archetype receive DISREGARDING any form of healing. We'll come back to that later. For this I'm going to have 100% base resistance be equal to 4/5 and every 1/5 will equal a 10% increase or decrease.

RANGE: This one might be a bit confusion but for this I'm focused on how far the player needs to be from the mobs to actually damage them.

AoE: I do believe that AoE needs to be separate from Range, especially with how much archetypes change spells. Battle Monk has an ability that turns Uppercut into an attack that hits all around the user. That can't be compared to base Uppercut.

Survivability: Now this one is tricky. This is going to take into account base resistance along with healing capabilities built into the Archetype, as well as any other additional abilities.

You'll notice I got rid of some stats you added. Control was more or less turned into AoE. Where's Speed? Speed is entirely irrelevant. Why? Heavy spell vs Spell Spam. Heavy melee vs Tier Stack. Walk speed. Spell Macros. Everything is build and player based. One person may deal on average 50k DPS while another person with the exact same build could be much more skilled and deal 100k DPS. This stat has absolutely nothing to do with archetypes just due to the nature of how the game works, and therefore should not be considered.

Now that I laid those out, this is how I personally would rank each specific Archetype stat wise:

Fallen:
DMG: 4.5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 2/5
AOE: 2/5
SURV: 1/5

Notes: Fallen has high damage potential, which is why its given a 4.5 (Ragnarokkr too!). It's strong, but not the strongest. Warrior, having 100% base resistance, is ranked at a 4/5. Fallen doesn't have outstanding range and the only decent AoE is Massive Bash. Additionally, the survivability factor is low since you have to be at low health, but I did take into account Intoxicating Blood which is why it isn't a fat 0.

Battle Monk:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 2.5/5
SURV: 3/5

Notes: Battle Monk has decent damage due to its spell spam playstyle and Discombobulate. Once again, same base Warrior chunkiness. The range is slightly better on Battle Monk since it gets access to Half Moon Swipe and Whirlwind Strike, which improve Uppercut range. It also has decent AoE due to Thunderclap and Whirlwind Strike. The survivability is subjective, it's either a 3 or 3.5 because Battle Monk has a ton of movement, especially regarding flying Monk. Additionally, Counter can also provide additional survivability since Counter completely negates damage if it triggers, but that is entirely reliant on the build being used since it is Agility based.

Paladin:
DMG: 1.5/5
DEF: 5/5
RANG: 2/5
AOE: 1/5
SURV: 4/5

Notes: We already know Paladin's damage. Probably the worst in the game. Paladin easily has the best defense due to Mantle and the additional +10% base resistance. Paladin ultimately has the same range as Fallen, disregarding Massive Bash and Quad Bash, Provoke helps Paladin but doesn't increase its range. Paladin has 0 AOE abilities except Provoke, so it sits at a pitiful 1. Survivability is extremely high due to Mantle once again, with Rejuvenating Skin helping to mitigate some damage. Furthermore, Second Chance is also HUGE, giving the player free death immunity.

Boltslinger:
DMG: 4/5
DEF: 1/5
RANG: 4.5/5
AOE: 2/5
SURV: 1/5

Notes: Archer is always gonna be the DPS machine. Boltslinger may not be the best, but it can whip out some high numbers still. 1/5 Defense is just translated to 70% base resistance. Boltslinger has some good range on it, probably the second best in the game, but I didn't place it at 5/5 since Sharpshooter gets access to some stuff that improve its range (Also GA can only shoot so far). Boltslinger actually does have some AoE due to Arrow Storm spread and GA, but it's not a massive amount. The reason why Survivability isn't 0 is because of 2 things: Stormy Feet and Frenzy. That gives Archer enough mobility to effectively dodge whatever is coming their way

Sharpshooter:
DMG: 5/5
DEF: 1/5
RANG: 5/5
AOE: 1/5
SURV: 0.5/5

Notes: Sharpshooter is the only one worthy of a 5/5 damage ranking. Easily the highest damage potential in the entire game, there's no real competition. Defense was already discussed above. Now Range might be controversial since Sharpshooter needs to be close for Homing Shots, but let me explain my reasoning for 5/5: Shocking Bomb and Twain's Arc. If those were not in consideration, I'd rank Sharpshooter as a 4 probably. Sharpshooter has very minimal AoE, with the extent being Arrow Shield, Bomb Arrow and Fire Creep (this one mainly). Sharpshooter also has no survivability except "kill things before it kills you" but the only reason why it's not 0 is because of Crepuscular Ray since that lifts you into the air out of melee range (like I said, it's not enough of an excuse to warrant it as survivability but it still does technically help you survive)

Trapper:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 1/5
RANG: 4/5
AOE: 4/5
SURV: 0/5

Notes: Trapper is an interesting one. While realistically, the damage might be low, for these damage rankings I look at archetypes at their full power, so this means maximum Basaltic Traps that are fully charged. Having all of those go off can pack a punch, but I didn't rank it as 4/5 because realistically, you won't be able to hit your targets with all your Traps fully charged at once. Defense is the same as before. Now remember, Range is different from AoE, so Trapper can still plant traps from a distance. Regarding AoE, I didn't rank it a 5 because even though traps can be spread out, there are still a lot of gaps where mobs may be able to dodge damage, but overall having numerous traps with AoE give Trapper a lot of ground to cover (don't forget Call of the Hound!). And finally, while Trapper does get more Arrow Shields, base Trapper loses Escape and like Sharpshooter, also doesn't get Speed, leaving it extremely vulnerable which is why it has a 0/5 for survivability.

Riftwalker:
DMG: 4/5
DEF: 2/5
RANG: 3.5/5
AOE: 1.5/5
SURV: 3.5/5

Notes: Riftwalker, another strong archetype! Winded has gotten nerfed a couple times like Fallen due to the sheer damage potential, but it still has quite a lot, which is worthy of a 4/5 ranking. Defense, as stated with archer, is just a translation to 80% resistance. Riftwalker has decent range, due to Ice Snake and Meteor, and the extended melee attack. Mage has subpar AoE, but Riftwalker actually can make better use of it due to winded. Nonetheless, it still doesn't have much to work with. Riftwalker has good survivability, given that is has a Heal spell, and furthermore Devitalize can boost its survivability more

Light Bender:
DMG: 2/5
DEF: 2/5
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 0.5/5
SURV: 5/5

Notes: Light Bender is a fantastic option for those who want to be support. Unfortunately, like Paladin, Light Bender's damage is awful (unless you pair it with Winded but that's not what we're doing here), and Fortitude is only thing that gives Light Bender a slight edge over Paladin regarding Damage. Defense is self explanatory. Light Bender has decent range, with Ophanim being able to travel around 20 blocks. However, the AoE is non existent. Light Bender is single target damage and Light Weaver is hardly worthy of "AoE damage", but it still does exist so it'll net only 0.5 points. And naturally, Light Bender has an impressive 45% BASE max health Heal spell, giving it some of the best survivability in the game.

Arcanist:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 2/5
RANG: 4/5
AOE: 3/5
SURV: 0/5

Notes: Arcanist is actually a lot stronger than people give it credit for, gaining some big damage boosts for Meteor. Furthermore, the Mana Bank allows for frequent spell casting, allowing Arcanist to constantly dish out damage. Defense has been explained. I rated Arcanist with higher range than Riftwalker due to Psychokinesis since that has added range. Arcanist has decent AoE purely due to Snake Nest as well as Chaos Explosion, allowing multiple meteor strikes to create a large AoE. Unfortunately, Arcanist suffers compared to the other Mage archetypes due to the fact it loses its heal spell and doesn't have any abilities that increase its life steal.

Shadestepper:
DMG: 5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 1/5
AOE: 2/5
SURV: 2.5/5

Note: Shadestepper is the very definition of Assassin, being able to easily one-shot enemies which gives it an impressive 5/5 damage ranking, since typically you will be utilizing Satsujin and Marked to your full advantage. Just like Warrior, 4/5 Defense translates to 100% resistance. Shadestepper has very low range since you need to run up to enemies, and while it has access to Better Smoke Bomb, it still doesn't change the fact that Backstab/Melee is Shadestepper's main source of damage. Shadestepper gets some AoE due to Black Hole and Spin Attack, as well as Violent Vortex which is more useful than people may think it is. Now the survivability is weird on Shadestepper and very situational. On one hand, being able to constantly chain vanish allows the user to stay invisible for long periods of time, but sometimes they are unable to do that due to the long 5 second Vanish Cooldown (and also no healing while Vanished), which is ultimately why I placed the survivability at the halfway point.

Trickster:
DMG: 2.5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 4/5
SURV: 3.5/5

Notes: Trickster is a very unique archetype, being able to take on a damage role when paired with Shadestepper or a Support role on its own. The Clones do hurt the user's damage, but when all Clones are active, having 7 Spin Attacks go off can add up (assuming all hit). Despite that, realistically the user will not be in that situation so the damage nerf will be more detrimental than anything. Defense was discussed. Trickster has boosted Range and AoE due to the Clones, and Lured can help make things easier, similar to Provoke. Trickster has decent survivability due to the damage reduction of Clones, but like Shadestepper's situational flaw, it cannot chain Vanish.

Acrobat:
DMG: 3/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 3.5/5
AOE: 3.5/5
SURV: 4.5/5

Note: Acrobat surprisingly has some pretty high rankings, obtaining quite a few Multihit upgrades to boost its damage, but usually the user will probably not be using Multihit too often and relying primarily on Smoke Bomb and Jasmine Bloom for damage, which isn't too significant on its own. Defense was stated earlier. Acrobat has some pretty decent range, but unlike the other Archetypes, it's more vertical than horizontal, utilizing Shurikens and Jasmine Bloom, as well as Smoke Bomb. Because Acrobat utilizes range in a much different manner, I still decided to rank it high since typically the user will still be out of melee range. Regarding AoE, Jasmine Bloom and Triple Smoke Bomb give Acrobat a lot of passive damage, so it's able to cover a lot of ground below. Acrobat arguably has some of the best survivability in the game since pairing Weightless with Jasmine Bloom means constant mana sustain, allowing the user to stay airborne and out of enemy range for a substantial amount of time, completely negating the requirement of needing to heal.

Summoner:
DMG: 4/5
DEF: 0/5
RANG: 4/5
AOE: 5/5
SURV: 2.5/5

Notes: Summoner is yet another powerful archetype, utilizing tons of summons to deal damage, giving it a high passive damage output, and with the addition of Spells, it deserves a 4/5 ranking. 0/5 Defense translates to 60% Resistance. Puppet range is actually pretty good, and Crimson Effigies can also get up close to damage opponents. Summoner has the best AoE in the game due to a whopping 3 Totems, giving it a massive amount of ground to cover. While the Totems give Summoner passive health regeneration, it usually isn't enough to offset any damage the user takes due to Shaman's low defense, giving it's Survivability a subpar ranking.

Ritualist:
DMG: 3/5 • 1.5/5 • 2.5/5
DEF: 0/5 • 3.5/5 • -1/5 (lol negative)
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 3.5/5
SURV: 1/5 • 3/5 • 2.5/5

Notes: You'll immediately notice I ranked Ritualist very differently, and that's because Ritualist has the unique ability to switch between an Offensive, Defensive, and Mobile state. None of those can actively be compared together, so they each needed their own ranking (Rankings from left to right are Lunatic, Fanatic, Coward). For starters, Mask of Lunatic unfortunately received a harsh nerf recently, which does hurt Ritualist's damage potential a lot, especially since base Ritualist doesn't receive Rebound or Shocking Aura. Fanatic also gives Ritualist a damage decrease, while Coward doesn't alter the damage. In terms of defense, Lunatic doesn't change anything, but Fanatic gives Ritualist a bonus +35% base resistance which is really good. Coward reduces Ritualist's resistance to a horrid 40%, putting it in the negatives based on the scale I used. As for range, Ritualist does alright considering it has a Totem, but it also loses Uproot, leaving the range at average at best. In terms of AoE, it also isn't too bad due to Totem, but base Ritualist only receives a single Totem, but Storm Dance does have some usefulness to it, and Better Totem adds a hefty +4 Blocks on the Totem range. Now for survivability: Lunatic gives negative walk speed which greatly hurts Ritualist's mobility, especially since Haul is sluggish, leaving the user as an open target waiting to get brutalized. Fanatic allows the user to actually tank attacks (especially with Chant of Fanatic) but the only thing that hurts its survivability besides Haul is Seeking Totem, since the Totems will actively be moving away from you, putting the user in danger if they want to passively restore health. Coward gives a truck load of mobility which helps offset the poor resistance, and Frog Dance can sometimes help the user avoid damage depending on the situation.

Acolyte:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 0/5
RANG: 3.5/5
AOE: 3.5/5
SURV: 2.5/5

Notes: Acolyte has proven to be a unique archetype that, unlike Light Bender, can heal and deal damage, and at a much faster rate too. Acolyte gets access to Shocking Aura, Rebound, and Vengeful Spirit, not to mention Sacrificial Shrine also boosting Aura damage, giving it big damage, especially when paired with Lunatic (which we are not looking at here), which can ultimately make it output more damage than Ritualist. Acolyte still retains the base 60% resistance. Acolyte can also get Better Totem to further the AoE range, and Blood Sorrow does give the user a ranged attack. Unlike Ritualist, Acolyte also has Uproot to play around with. Some may be surprised by the survivability ranking due to the large heal potential that Acolyte has (remember, base Acolyte gets 1 Totem). The user must sacrifice HP in order to heal themselves, and with Shaman's low defense, that puts them at risk of being killed more easily since they have low health. So while the heal reward is nice, the risk is also detrimental.

Not sure how long this took to write, couple hours, but that's my take on the whole situation. I feel as if I made accurate estimates due to my experience with each Archetype and their functionality but hey, maybe some numbers are off. Either way, I like the general idea that you were aiming for and I think with some adjustments it could turn out pretty well!
Click to expand...

I think this was based on 1.20 values

lemonalade · Nov 16, 2022

point_line said: ↑

I think this was based on 1.20 values
Click to expand...

Yeah, my bad. I meant 120% regarding 5/5, thanks

AlanGreyson · Nov 16, 2022

I think this is a very good system to use for the classes data. I mean every class has 3 archetypes and some has completely different value than another like paladin and fallen.
This data is very good to represent the archetypes since they have more wide data variables but not so much on classes generally. Perhaps they could make an average data for the classes and show what is more "effective" for gameplay

Risk is definitely a good value to add. Dmg, def, speed, spell are alr somewhat implemented but healing however, Idk what to say about it since healing is more related to spells than ability.

However you did a great job writing this thread and I would give you 10/10 for both effort and great work (⁠｡⁠•̀⁠ᴗ⁠-⁠)⁠✧

chateaukey · Nov 16, 2022

in my personal opinion, haul isn't too bad. just throw, hold right click, reapeat

________________________________

personnally, shamans rec isn't too bad. all you have to do the use haul to get away, heal using pots of spells and then get back into battle. this worked with a few minor bosses for me.

shacers · Nov 16, 2022

1. warrior is fine as it is, just mayybe rework paladin.

2. assassin has more cc that you realize, have you used black hole, blade fury (no you havent ur only lvl 40 assassin), or wall of smoke + choke bomb? plus the whole point of trickster is tanking and crowd control.

3. ill stop critisizing for a moment, the risk factor is a good idea, it should replace difficulty because in reality id say archer or assassin has the most difficulty, not shaman

4. recovery.... ehhh its middle ground, like lemonalade said def is there for how much dmg a class takes, but recovery also makes sense because some classes have recovery abilities that people might want to know about.

5. i do agree with lowering shaman's range stat because its pretty close up.

also nothing to do with the suggestion but you mentioned how shaman struggles against bosses, now im not very experienced with shaman either but acolyte and summoner seem to be perfectly designed to shred bosses (less so for acolyte, more of outlive), summoner is capable of building an army (even without shepherd its still really strong) and targeting a single enemy for boosted dmg, plus it can heal decently well with triple totem regen. acolyte has fire tongue and heal from sacrificial shrine, plus shrine boosts dmg. and of course if you really want, you can factor in blood sorrow

AcadeeAlkana · Nov 17, 2022

lemonalade said: ↑

Defense is regarding the base resistance of a class. Warrior has 100% (up to 110%) HAD 120%* while Mage only has 80%. This isn't misleading at all, it's purely stating how much damage the class receives.

I personally don't believe warrior needs a buff. There's a reason why Fallen has been getting repeatedly nerfed, and that is due to the insane damage potential. And I won't even talk about Paladin because, well, TNA and other bosses. Tbh Warrior is probably the most balanced class out there right now regarding the mixture between all its archetypes. Also worth mentioning it has access to a Strength and Resistance buff that no other class has (Shaman sort of has it with masks but it has heavy restrictions).

Rally: allow me to introduce myself. In all seriousness though, all classes SHOULD NOT have some form of self healing. The whole point of a class is that it's unique and excels in some factors while struggling in others. If all classes could self heal, then it would just boil down to which class has more damage. Potions already exist, and arguably insanely overpowered, so every class already has survivability.

Shaman range a bit weird since their melee also has like a 30 block range or something, and also Summoner doesn't really need to worry about AoE but still has good range.

Ok now for my input (I promise I didn't comment just to bash on your stuff lol). Ultimately, yeah the class descriptions could stand for some updating, but it definitely needs to be archetype based. Light Bender cannot compare to Arcanist for multiple reasons: 1) Light Bender literally has no Crowd Control and 2) Arcanist has built in sustain. So I think giving mage a 3 on recovery is ultimately not gonna suffice if we're trying to aim for accuracy. Another example: Fallen has outstanding damage potential. Paladin is um... lackluster, at best. Wynncraft pre 2.0 had 5 classes. Wynncraft post 2.0 has 15. A class isn't really recognizable as a class anymore since archetypes basically replaced the base class ENTIRELY so every Archetype should be taken into account when trying to provide stats.

Here's personally what I believe the stats should be like:

DAMAGE: Pretty straight forward, how much damage an archetype can output, however this would really only focus on Spell Damage. Why? Sure, some archetypes (Shadestepper and Fallen) are better geared towards Melee compared to others (Acrobat and Paladin), but the archetypes that are better for Melee also coincidentally have high Spell Damage potential. That's why I think it's acceptable to mash both into one: 2.0 is designed with spells in mind. A Fallen build that gets 50k Melee attacks is still comparable to a Fallen Build with 30k Uppercuts, it's purely based on build. If we completely ignore builds and look at the base stats holding a Normal Tier Weapon, spells are more or less guaranteed to overpower melee damage.
TLDR: Archetypes that have melee viable options on average end up dishing out around the same amount of DPS as a spell based build

The Damage stat shouldn't take bosses or specific environments into account, just purely the damage the spells/melee deal. If we start taking specific situations into account, then it gets way too complicated and subjective since some classes (Archer) have way better DPS against bosses than others (Shaman), whereas in situations with large groups of enemies, the inverse is true. Seeing a spell deal 40k damage is enough to determine whether or not that is high or low damage, no matter what scenario the user is in.

DEFENSE: Base Resistance. Simple as that. How much damage does the Archetype receive DISREGARDING any form of healing. We'll come back to that later. For this I'm going to have 100% base resistance be equal to 4/5 and every 1/5 will equal a 10% increase or decrease.

RANGE: This one might be a bit confusion but for this I'm focused on how far the player needs to be from the mobs to actually damage them.

AoE: I do believe that AoE needs to be separate from Range, especially with how much archetypes change spells. Battle Monk has an ability that turns Uppercut into an attack that hits all around the user. That can't be compared to base Uppercut.

Survivability: Now this one is tricky. This is going to take into account base resistance along with healing capabilities built into the Archetype, as well as any other additional abilities.

You'll notice I got rid of some stats you added. Control was more or less turned into AoE. Where's Speed? Speed is entirely irrelevant. Why? Heavy spell vs Spell Spam. Heavy melee vs Tier Stack. Walk speed. Spell Macros. Everything is build and player based. One person may deal on average 50k DPS while another person with the exact same build could be much more skilled and deal 100k DPS. This stat has absolutely nothing to do with archetypes just due to the nature of how the game works, and therefore should not be considered.

Now that I laid those out, this is how I personally would rank each specific Archetype stat wise:

Fallen:
DMG: 4.5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 2/5
AOE: 2/5
SURV: 1/5

Notes: Fallen has high damage potential, which is why its given a 4.5 (Ragnarokkr too!). It's strong, but not the strongest. Warrior, having 100% base resistance, is ranked at a 4/5. Fallen doesn't have outstanding range and the only decent AoE is Massive Bash. Additionally, the survivability factor is low since you have to be at low health, but I did take into account Intoxicating Blood which is why it isn't a fat 0.

Battle Monk:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 2.5/5
SURV: 3/5

Notes: Battle Monk has decent damage due to its spell spam playstyle and Discombobulate. Once again, same base Warrior chunkiness. The range is slightly better on Battle Monk since it gets access to Half Moon Swipe and Whirlwind Strike, which improve Uppercut range. It also has decent AoE due to Thunderclap and Whirlwind Strike. The survivability is subjective, it's either a 3 or 3.5 because Battle Monk has a ton of movement, especially regarding flying Monk. Additionally, Counter can also provide additional survivability since Counter completely negates damage if it triggers, but that is entirely reliant on the build being used since it is Agility based.

Paladin:
DMG: 1.5/5
DEF: 5/5
RANG: 2/5
AOE: 1/5
SURV: 4/5

Notes: We already know Paladin's damage. Probably the worst in the game. Paladin easily has the best defense due to Mantle and the additional +10% base resistance. Paladin ultimately has the same range as Fallen, disregarding Massive Bash and Quad Bash, Provoke helps Paladin but doesn't increase its range. Paladin has 0 AOE abilities except Provoke, so it sits at a pitiful 1. Survivability is extremely high due to Mantle once again, with Rejuvenating Skin helping to mitigate some damage. Furthermore, Second Chance is also HUGE, giving the player free death immunity.

Boltslinger:
DMG: 4/5
DEF: 1/5
RANG: 4.5/5
AOE: 2/5
SURV: 1/5

Notes: Archer is always gonna be the DPS machine. Boltslinger may not be the best, but it can whip out some high numbers still. 1/5 Defense is just translated to 70% base resistance. Boltslinger has some good range on it, probably the second best in the game, but I didn't place it at 5/5 since Sharpshooter gets access to some stuff that improve its range (Also GA can only shoot so far). Boltslinger actually does have some AoE due to Arrow Storm spread and GA, but it's not a massive amount. The reason why Survivability isn't 0 is because of 2 things: Stormy Feet and Frenzy. That gives Archer enough mobility to effectively dodge whatever is coming their way

Sharpshooter:
DMG: 5/5
DEF: 1/5
RANG: 5/5
AOE: 1/5
SURV: 0.5/5

Notes: Sharpshooter is the only one worthy of a 5/5 damage ranking. Easily the highest damage potential in the entire game, there's no real competition. Defense was already discussed above. Now Range might be controversial since Sharpshooter needs to be close for Homing Shots, but let me explain my reasoning for 5/5: Shocking Bomb and Twain's Arc. If those were not in consideration, I'd rank Sharpshooter as a 4 probably. Sharpshooter has very minimal AoE, with the extent being Arrow Shield, Bomb Arrow and Fire Creep (this one mainly). Sharpshooter also has no survivability except "kill things before it kills you" but the only reason why it's not 0 is because of Crepuscular Ray since that lifts you into the air out of melee range (like I said, it's not enough of an excuse to warrant it as survivability but it still does technically help you survive)

Trapper:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 1/5
RANG: 4/5
AOE: 4/5
SURV: 0/5

Notes: Trapper is an interesting one. While realistically, the damage might be low, for these damage rankings I look at archetypes at their full power, so this means maximum Basaltic Traps that are fully charged. Having all of those go off can pack a punch, but I didn't rank it as 4/5 because realistically, you won't be able to hit your targets with all your Traps fully charged at once. Defense is the same as before. Now remember, Range is different from AoE, so Trapper can still plant traps from a distance. Regarding AoE, I didn't rank it a 5 because even though traps can be spread out, there are still a lot of gaps where mobs may be able to dodge damage, but overall having numerous traps with AoE give Trapper a lot of ground to cover (don't forget Call of the Hound!). And finally, while Trapper does get more Arrow Shields, base Trapper loses Escape and like Sharpshooter, also doesn't get Speed, leaving it extremely vulnerable which is why it has a 0/5 for survivability.

Riftwalker:
DMG: 4/5
DEF: 2/5
RANG: 3.5/5
AOE: 1.5/5
SURV: 3.5/5

Notes: Riftwalker, another strong archetype! Winded has gotten nerfed a couple times like Fallen due to the sheer damage potential, but it still has quite a lot, which is worthy of a 4/5 ranking. Defense, as stated with archer, is just a translation to 80% resistance. Riftwalker has decent range, due to Ice Snake and Meteor, and the extended melee attack. Mage has subpar AoE, but Riftwalker actually can make better use of it due to winded. Nonetheless, it still doesn't have much to work with. Riftwalker has good survivability, given that is has a Heal spell, and furthermore Devitalize can boost its survivability more

Light Bender:
DMG: 2/5
DEF: 2/5
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 0.5/5
SURV: 5/5

Notes: Light Bender is a fantastic option for those who want to be support. Unfortunately, like Paladin, Light Bender's damage is awful (unless you pair it with Winded but that's not what we're doing here), and Fortitude is only thing that gives Light Bender a slight edge over Paladin regarding Damage. Defense is self explanatory. Light Bender has decent range, with Ophanim being able to travel around 20 blocks. However, the AoE is non existent. Light Bender is single target damage and Light Weaver is hardly worthy of "AoE damage", but it still does exist so it'll net only 0.5 points. And naturally, Light Bender has an impressive 45% BASE max health Heal spell, giving it some of the best survivability in the game.

Arcanist:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 2/5
RANG: 4/5
AOE: 3/5
SURV: 0/5

Notes: Arcanist is actually a lot stronger than people give it credit for, gaining some big damage boosts for Meteor. Furthermore, the Mana Bank allows for frequent spell casting, allowing Arcanist to constantly dish out damage. Defense has been explained. I rated Arcanist with higher range than Riftwalker due to Psychokinesis since that has added range. Arcanist has decent AoE purely due to Snake Nest as well as Chaos Explosion, allowing multiple meteor strikes to create a large AoE. Unfortunately, Arcanist suffers compared to the other Mage archetypes due to the fact it loses its heal spell and doesn't have any abilities that increase its life steal.

Shadestepper:
DMG: 5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 1/5
AOE: 2/5
SURV: 2.5/5

Note: Shadestepper is the very definition of Assassin, being able to easily one-shot enemies which gives it an impressive 5/5 damage ranking, since typically you will be utilizing Satsujin and Marked to your full advantage. Just like Warrior, 4/5 Defense translates to 100% resistance. Shadestepper has very low range since you need to run up to enemies, and while it has access to Better Smoke Bomb, it still doesn't change the fact that Backstab/Melee is Shadestepper's main source of damage. Shadestepper gets some AoE due to Black Hole and Spin Attack, as well as Violent Vortex which is more useful than people may think it is. Now the survivability is weird on Shadestepper and very situational. On one hand, being able to constantly chain vanish allows the user to stay invisible for long periods of time, but sometimes they are unable to do that due to the long 5 second Vanish Cooldown (and also no healing while Vanished), which is ultimately why I placed the survivability at the halfway point.

Trickster:
DMG: 2.5/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 4/5
SURV: 3.5/5

Notes: Trickster is a very unique archetype, being able to take on a damage role when paired with Shadestepper or a Support role on its own. The Clones do hurt the user's damage, but when all Clones are active, having 7 Spin Attacks go off can add up (assuming all hit). Despite that, realistically the user will not be in that situation so the damage nerf will be more detrimental than anything. Defense was discussed. Trickster has boosted Range and AoE due to the Clones, and Lured can help make things easier, similar to Provoke. Trickster has decent survivability due to the damage reduction of Clones, but like Shadestepper's situational flaw, it cannot chain Vanish.

Acrobat:
DMG: 3/5
DEF: 4/5
RANG: 3.5/5
AOE: 3.5/5
SURV: 4.5/5

Note: Acrobat surprisingly has some pretty high rankings, obtaining quite a few Multihit upgrades to boost its damage, but usually the user will probably not be using Multihit too often and relying primarily on Smoke Bomb and Jasmine Bloom for damage, which isn't too significant on its own. Defense was stated earlier. Acrobat has some pretty decent range, but unlike the other Archetypes, it's more vertical than horizontal, utilizing Shurikens and Jasmine Bloom, as well as Smoke Bomb. Because Acrobat utilizes range in a much different manner, I still decided to rank it high since typically the user will still be out of melee range. Regarding AoE, Jasmine Bloom and Triple Smoke Bomb give Acrobat a lot of passive damage, so it's able to cover a lot of ground below. Acrobat arguably has some of the best survivability in the game since pairing Weightless with Jasmine Bloom means constant mana sustain, allowing the user to stay airborne and out of enemy range for a substantial amount of time, completely negating the requirement of needing to heal.

Summoner:
DMG: 4/5
DEF: 0/5
RANG: 4/5
AOE: 5/5
SURV: 2.5/5

Notes: Summoner is yet another powerful archetype, utilizing tons of summons to deal damage, giving it a high passive damage output, and with the addition of Spells, it deserves a 4/5 ranking. 0/5 Defense translates to 60% Resistance. Puppet range is actually pretty good, and Crimson Effigies can also get up close to damage opponents. Summoner has the best AoE in the game due to a whopping 3 Totems, giving it a massive amount of ground to cover. While the Totems give Summoner passive health regeneration, it usually isn't enough to offset any damage the user takes due to Shaman's low defense, giving it's Survivability a subpar ranking.

Ritualist:
DMG: 3/5 • 1.5/5 • 2.5/5
DEF: 0/5 • 3.5/5 • -1/5 (lol negative)
RANG: 3/5
AOE: 3.5/5
SURV: 1/5 • 3/5 • 2.5/5

Notes: You'll immediately notice I ranked Ritualist very differently, and that's because Ritualist has the unique ability to switch between an Offensive, Defensive, and Mobile state. None of those can actively be compared together, so they each needed their own ranking (Rankings from left to right are Lunatic, Fanatic, Coward). For starters, Mask of Lunatic unfortunately received a harsh nerf recently, which does hurt Ritualist's damage potential a lot, especially since base Ritualist doesn't receive Rebound or Shocking Aura. Fanatic also gives Ritualist a damage decrease, while Coward doesn't alter the damage. In terms of defense, Lunatic doesn't change anything, but Fanatic gives Ritualist a bonus +35% base resistance which is really good. Coward reduces Ritualist's resistance to a horrid 40%, putting it in the negatives based on the scale I used. As for range, Ritualist does alright considering it has a Totem, but it also loses Uproot, leaving the range at average at best. In terms of AoE, it also isn't too bad due to Totem, but base Ritualist only receives a single Totem, but Storm Dance does have some usefulness to it, and Better Totem adds a hefty +4 Blocks on the Totem range. Now for survivability: Lunatic gives negative walk speed which greatly hurts Ritualist's mobility, especially since Haul is sluggish, leaving the user as an open target waiting to get brutalized. Fanatic allows the user to actually tank attacks (especially with Chant of Fanatic) but the only thing that hurts its survivability besides Haul is Seeking Totem, since the Totems will actively be moving away from you, putting the user in danger if they want to passively restore health. Coward gives a truck load of mobility which helps offset the poor resistance, and Frog Dance can sometimes help the user avoid damage depending on the situation.

Acolyte:
DMG: 3.5/5
DEF: 0/5
RANG: 3.5/5
AOE: 3.5/5
SURV: 2.5/5

Notes: Acolyte has proven to be a unique archetype that, unlike Light Bender, can heal and deal damage, and at a much faster rate too. Acolyte gets access to Shocking Aura, Rebound, and Vengeful Spirit, not to mention Sacrificial Shrine also boosting Aura damage, giving it big damage, especially when paired with Lunatic (which we are not looking at here), which can ultimately make it output more damage than Ritualist. Acolyte still retains the base 60% resistance. Acolyte can also get Better Totem to further the AoE range, and Blood Sorrow does give the user a ranged attack. Unlike Ritualist, Acolyte also has Uproot to play around with. Some may be surprised by the survivability ranking due to the large heal potential that Acolyte has (remember, base Acolyte gets 1 Totem). The user must sacrifice HP in order to heal themselves, and with Shaman's low defense, that puts them at risk of being killed more easily since they have low health. So while the heal reward is nice, the risk is also detrimental.

Not sure how long this took to write, couple hours, but that's my take on the whole situation. I feel as if I made accurate estimates due to my experience with each Archetype and their functionality but hey, maybe some numbers are off. Either way, I like the general idea that you were aiming for and I think with some adjustments it could turn out pretty well!
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...Okay, wow, that's a long response! Thanks for the super-long response - I'll finish reading through/understanding it eventually! Something I'd like to say until then is that when writing this, I purposefully focused on the Base Classes without much consideration of Builds, Major IDs, or Archetypes due to all of those being locked behind progress throughout the entire game.

I believe that Wynncraft's balance is very "Late-Game first, everyone else later," so a lot of the veteran players never have to worry about the problems and disadvantages each Class starts with because of most Items having significantly beneficial effects. I imagine that the average veteran's stockpile of RNG-rewarded Items that are actually good is probably big enough to slap together a build focusing on any ID or Skill you want, mitigating the repetition of Levels being earned at a snail's pace so you don't get too powerful for the new content.

lemonalade said: ↑

In all seriousness though, all classes SHOULD NOT have some form of self healing. The whole point of a class is that it's unique and excels in some factors while struggling in others. If all classes could self heal, then it would just boil down to which class has more damage. Potions already exist, and arguably insanely overpowered, so every class already has survivability.
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I'm not arguing that every Class needs self-healing in their Spells, but Warrior's reliance on Potions from Levels 1-50 guzzles through Emeralds like no tomorrow and is inefficient when patching up smaller injuries...And how do you get new Items? By spending Emeralds, which I don't have from buying all of those overpowered Potions!

Bringing along lower-Tier Potions to heal back the scratches is no longer practical due to the new Potion Stacking (though it's very convenient for every other Class in the game), and "the ability to charge through a horde of enemies without getting scratched" implies that Warrior has significantly better healing than any other Class, since you'd need multiple times the HP of everyone else to accomplish such a feat without healing.

AlanGreyson said: ↑

Risk is definitely a good value to add. Dmg, def, speed, spell are alr somewhat implemented but healing however, Idk what to say about it since healing is more related to spells than ability.
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shacers said: ↑

3. ill stop critisizing for a moment, the risk factor is a good idea, it should replace difficulty because in reality id say archer or assassin has the most difficulty, not shaman
Click to expand...

Well, at least I got something here right!

AlanGreyson said: ↑

Dmg, def, speed, spell are alr somewhat implemented but healing however, Idk what to say about it since healing is more related to spells than ability.

However you did a great job writing this thread and I would give you 10/10 for both effort and great work (⁠｡⁠•̀⁠ᴗ⁠-⁠)⁠✧
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Thanks for the feedback! Always helps me justify the time I take to write these elaborate suggestions.

Recovery is more about resource recovery in the event that a player screws up, and players are typically human, so they can't stay out of trouble forever. How I envisioned the different resources which Recovery concerns is as follows:

HP and healing are the highest priority of REC, since most Early-to-Mid Game Builds need a surprising amount of it to not die to a single enemy in less than 5 seconds.

Mana is almost as important due to it almost always dictating DMG output and SPD. Spells are vital to escaping most enemy attacks or killing enemies before they even have the chance to attack you to begin with.

Positioning is third in terms of importance. With enough HP or Mana, you could technically survive going AFK in the middle of a crowd, though most EtM-Game Builds are too fragile for that. If a Class' Positioning goes wrong, that's when the Second Spells step in.

shacers said: ↑

1. warrior is fine as it is, just mayybe rework paladin.
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I can't really say the same from my Level 1-50 perspective. Battle Monk is the only reliable/fun one in my experience, since Corrupted is just too stressful (though in the rare event that I'm not scared to look away from the screen for 3 seconds, getting kills off of a single Main Attack is fun). Even with Battle Monk, though, I feel like it's trying to force me to abandon parts of what made Warrior fun before (Charging to escape, War Scream to blast away/CC enemies in all directions). I'm also not too satisfied that 1/3 of the Class' Archetypes is purely dedicated to a Perma-Damage, Glass Cannon playstyle which most casuals (like myself) will have a hard time enjoying.

chateaukey said: ↑

personnally, shamans rec isn't too bad. all you have to do the use haul to get away, heal using pots of spells and then get back into battle. this worked with a few minor bosses for me.
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Shaman's certainly not terrible at running away - I don't think a single Class has a bad Second Spell for escaping (when not being terrorized by Ranged Attacks, at least), but Haul takes the most effort and commitment out of any Class because it demands throwing the slow-flying Totem just to aim and use their mobility.

However, most competent Shamans (and most veteran Wynncrafters in general) focus on proactively positioning themselves with Spells and Sprinting so that they never need to spend Mana on escaping. Recovery is what they can do to react to any disadvantages they fall into, making corrections and getting back HP and Mana to keep their recent mistake(s) from being fatal.

shacers · Nov 17, 2022

right wait actually i take back the thing i said about warrior, it is not fine, its BORING AS HELL. my friend can vouch for me being a level 103 warrior, and i can also agree with this threads owner that level 50 under warrior is weak, ive died 50% more as warrior than as shaman

________________________________

might i say i was using paladin warrior, the one thats supposed to live, and acolyte shaman, the one that literally kills itself
early game needs a big buff

AcadeeAlkana · Nov 17, 2022

shacers said: ↑

right wait actually i take back the thing i said about warrior, it is not fine, its BORING AS HELL. my friend can vouch for me being a level 103 warrior, and i can also agree with this threads owner that level 50 under warrior is weak, ive died 50% more as warrior than as shaman

________________________________

might i say i was using paladin warrior, the one thats supposed to live, and acolyte shaman, the one that literally kills itself
early game needs a big buff
Click to expand...

A part of what makes Wynncraft's early-game more unique compared to other MMORPGs is that Wynncraft's melee enemies will not hesitate to kill you, regardless of Level. On one hand, that's fun to veterans, who always have a reason to keep their Class' buffs up and can still lose half their health in 3 seconds if they're careless.

...On the other hand, casuals exist, and the skill floor in terms of strategy and Items rivals that of TF2. Also doesn't help that there is no convenient in-game place to search up actually good Items, but taking minutes out of your day to find Items on Wynndata is good enough when you can die while AFK for more than 5 seconds right?

...There's a reason the "I" in "Operation A.N.V.I.L." stands for Items.

TL;DR: it's hard to be a low-damage Melee Class in a game which punishes you for not killing Melee Enemies before they can hit you.

shacers · Nov 18, 2022

AcadeeAlkana said: ↑

A part of what makes Wynncraft's early-game more unique compared to other MMORPGs is that Wynncraft's melee enemies will not hesitate to kill you, regardless of Level. On one hand, that's fun to veterans, who always have a reason to keep their Class' buffs up and can still lose half their health in 3 seconds if they're careless.

...On the other hand, casuals exist, and the skill floor in terms of strategy and Items rivals that of TF2. Also doesn't help that there is no convenient in-game place to search up actually good Items, but taking minutes out of your day to find Items on Wynndata is good enough when you can die while AFK for more than 5 seconds right?

...There's a reason the "I" in "Operation A.N.V.I.L." stands for Items.

TL;DR: it's hard to be a low-damage Melee Class in a game which punishes you for not killing Melee Enemies before they can hit you.
Click to expand...

well wynndata doesnt even have acccurate results now...

uh well i think... i was a casual. i got to lvl 105 pretty easily... but that was pre 2.0 and i was using assassin.

i think 2.0 made it harder to level for early game, and early game needs buffs and mobs need nerfs

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