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World Aoe Burn Tank Item

Discussion in 'General Suggestions' started by Alyrezec, May 17, 2020.

?

Add the item into the game?

  1. Yeah!

  2. No.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Alyrezec

    Alyrezec Travelled Adventurer

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    Hi this idea is inspired by a League of Legends item called Sunfire Cape. For those of you who don't know what this is, it's basically a tank item that does AOE burn damage per second to nearby enemies. I came up with this idea because going tank in the end game makes you tanky but severely cuts off the damage you can do. Players who build full tank and tackle something solo like The Eye for example will take them ages to kill it solo due to the insane amount of HP it has. As for tougher end game enemies who have HP regen... killing them will prove to be quite difficult. Building tank usually revolves around having a team that can make up for the damage you don't have, but I wanted to make an item that makes it possible to clear end game content solo without having a team and without having to take hours just to kill a single enemy. That's why I wanted to present to you the scuffed version of Sunfire Cape called Molten Heart.

    Molten Heart

    AOE.png

    Scorch

    The unique effect of this armor piece is Scorch. This effect burns enemies in a 5 block radius based on your current % HP. However, you also take damage every second for wearing this armor.
    • 10% of current HP
    • Burn Damage is fire; goes well with defense stat and other tank items and can be amplified by % Fire Damage
    • Enemy resistances also apply
    Ex. 30,000 HP x .1 = 3,000/1s
    Adding % Fire Damage (46% for example)
    3,000 x .46 = 1380
    3,000 + 1380 = 4380 Fire Damage per second
    Adding Resistances (Enemy negates 20% fire damage for example)
    4380 - (4380 x .20) = 3504 fire damage per second

    • You take 5% of your Max HP as fire damage every second
    • Your own resistances also apply
    • You don't stagger as if you were on fire, the self damage acts like negative HP regen
    Ex. 30,000 HP x .05 = 1500/2s
    80% Damage negative from defense stats
    1500 - (1500 x .8) = 300 self fire damage per second



    This allows tanks to consistently dish out damage every second while they tank hits. This makes up for the lack of damage that tanks produce. This armor piece mainly revolves around the Warrior class as they are known to be tanky, but it can be used with any other class that wants to go tank. In addition, the Warrior class is pretty meh right now compared to other classes so this can be a positive boost. I also did some research and noticed that there isn't really a tanky chestplate around the levels 90-100 that revolves around defense unlike other armor pieces such as Cancer, Greaves of the Veneer, or Crusade Sabatons. I made it so that the chestplate does damage based on your current HP because it acts like the fire in your soul. The more defeated you are, the less the fire burns. You also take damage because your literally wearing burning armor. I imagined that this chestplate was forged in the heart of the volcanoes in Molten Heights which is how I got the name.

    Stats

    Negatives


    Negative Mana Regen - This is due to the fact that the chestplate is suppose to be heavy and hot and that you get tired over time from wearing it

    Negative walk speed - The chestplate is suppose to be heavy and most tanks aren't suppose to be mobile

    Negative Water Defense - Water puts out fires and is suppose to be a weakness to this chestplate

    Positives

    Health/ Health Regen - This is suppose to add additional tankiness to your build and because regen and health complements with the chestplate's unique effect. In addition, the heart pumps blood and keeps you alive so it also goes well with the name of the chestplate

    Defence - Most defence oriented tank items give additional defence such as Cancer which gives +20


    Thorns - For ranged enemies this adds a little redirection damage if they are not in range of the unique effect

    Exploding - Fires or sparks are usually needed to ignite something, and exploding complements the AOE damage of the unique effect by adding more AOE damage when enemies die. I also imagined that it would be satisfying if multiple enemies died from the AOE and exploded killing more nearby enemies... basically a chain reaction

    Elemental Defenses - Adding tankiness against various elements besides water

    Fire Damage - Complements the passive and tank weapons such as Guardian which has meh base damage


    TL;DR - AOE Fire Damage (per second) mythic chestplate. This gives tanks a damage boost so they can solo end game content without taking forever to kill the enemies and without having to party with a team. Also adds a tanky chestplate to levels 90-100 that focuses around defence.

    That's basically the item... if you have any suggestions or comments please post them below!



     
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  2. Yraw

    Yraw i hate stepping on lego

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    This item would either be super op, or super bad. You have 8k + 5k hp with no real downsides. You can just put a memento or something and cancel out the -mr, plus the ele defs don't really matter in general. You can also do a damage per second build by just doing a poison build, it would basically be the same thing. Plus tanks don't really suffer in the eye, a tank is supposed to take a long time to kill something but kill them at the end. In fights such as dr.legendary, it's mostly just because it's bad boss design. You also have a ton of hpr, which would be super op. There's just not really a point to the chestplate because you can just use poison and an AoE spell and have the same effect. This is basically a chestplate with poison damage, and -hpr.
     
  3. Jeremoiderper

    Jeremoiderper Well-Known Adventurer

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    nice it's op as fuck and has no balancing at all :D
     
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  4. StormDragon4

    StormDragon4 Well-Known Adventurer

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    Please don't write in dark colors. It kills me to read this in dark mode.
     
  5. Saya

    Saya soul points+ can fix most of the game's problems VIP+

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    A better version of this suggestion would be a Major ID that does constant damage to enemies in a certain radius that applies poison, then making tank items designed with poison. This would have an interesting tradeoff since reapplying poison would be pointless and so building completely towards poison would be weak, but building some poison would be helpful. It would also have more depth in implementation, since afk builds are heavily discouraged (afk farming being banned)

    Currently, the item lacks any sort of balance whatsoever. 13k HP in one item? With no downsides? With a broken ability? wtf?
     
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  6. Melkor

    Melkor The dark enemy of the world HERO

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    *cries in dark theme*
    That offers nearly as much health as my (reasonably tanky) mage has total, along with some of the highest damage boosts in the game, utterly insane health regen, thorns, elemental defenses (fight me) and no real downsides. That's not even factoring in the major ID, which would be countered by the insane positive health regen of this while offering massive passive damage. Also, hetusol is a tanky endgame chestplate that revolves around defence.
     
  7. I_Liek_Turtlez

    I_Liek_Turtlez Professional troglodyte HERO

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    AAAAAAAAAH MY EYES I CANT READ THIS ITS SO UNFRIENDLY TOWARDS DARK-THEME USERS
     
  8. Incred Bear

    Incred Bear Well-Known Adventurer

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    This would need some serious debuffs for a item like this.

    I swear you can make an afk almost unkillable build with this.
    Problem 1. The recoil can be reduced to almost nothing with your skill points needed already shortening the amount of health taken thus making the recoil system useless in a sense that the chest plate might already heal more then you take dmg

    Problem 2. I agree with most ppl on the negative mr.
    You can pair this with Greeves of the Vaneer which is paired with most hp sets and I’m pretty sure has a 1/4 mr stat added.

    Problem 3. The negative stats are really low compared to other items. Statue which I’m pretty sure has 13-14 max health is paired with -100+ we to compensate for its insane amount of health for 1 item.

    Also tanks are not meant to deal much damage due to the fact that they can’t die easily unlike other builds where high damage output means you are glassy.
     
  9. Qzphs

    Qzphs i make wfa builds

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    figured i'd give specific comments

    split into spoilers cos i ramble on a lot

    mythic chestplates aren't in the game because it wouldn't be balanced if players could use multiple mythic armors. imagine if you could use this in conjunction with resurgence, for instance. also come on no offense but making ur idea mythic just cos u like it is cringe
    5% of current hp would be better imo, granted not every tank is gonna have 30k hp but adding a few thousand to dps still feels a bit too strong
    easier to just cut this part out of major id and add a huge -hpr stat, it's simpler to understand
    as many ppl have said previously, -1mr max roll is too lenient of a downside. the -mr needs to be harsher
    it's logical but also contradictory with the major id idea you had. as i mentioned in the other section i think it's better to just make hpr negative to represent the recoil ur taking
    30 is pretty extreme imo (i mean it would be reasonable if it were mythic but i'm writing this entire post on the assumption that it shouldn't be)
    don't think it's appropriate. ur supposed to counter threats like that through decisions in combat (eg. closing the distance so that they are in range), not by deleting the weakness from the item directly. that's like saying archers should get +100def to compensate for their glassiness.
    yeah i get that but you're adding too many stats onto one item. firstly it makes the tooltip really cluttered (if you were around before ele revamp happened, think freedom changes). secondly it makes obtaining a good version of the item rlly hard in practice.
    that's an unrelated issue which needs to be resolved otherwise, not with the introduction of new items. giving tanks a new damage source is still a cool idea tho.

    hetusol would like to know your location

    with all that said here's my attempt at reworking your concept (with the major id as well obviously)

    don't feel bad that i criticised so many things btw, if i didn't talk about something then it means it was good. the concept is creative and it's good that you shared it.
     
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  10. Melkor

    Melkor The dark enemy of the world HERO

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    Since my original comment was quite negative and was pretty much just me attacking the item, let me go back and try to be more constructive.

    The other people are right, the health and health regen would make this insane. An item that drains your health shouldn't have some of the highest health regen in the game. I think that giving it negative health regen would balance this out a lot more and fit more with the idea of the item. I'd also halve the health it gives because even that would be a huge amount.

    I'd also remove some of the defenses, just because they clutter it up more than anything else. The water defense is the only one I'd leave, but I'd increase both the I'd and base value, so that it would actually hurt (that's right, elemental defenses can be used effectively). I'm talking major negative values here.

    While we're on the topic of negatives, the negative walkspeed is nice, though I'd increase it pretty drastically as well.

    I'd also ditch the thorns and exploding, as neither really is necessary; free thorns on a tank item is just more damage, and that isn't really necessary here. Exploding probably isn't necessary either, and frankly it just doesn't need more buffs.

    The fire damage is actually one of the biggest issues for me; it offers a damage boost comparable to many damage oriented pieces as a tank piece. In fact, the only items to top it are the sanctuaries (0 health), conflagrate (-1800 health) and earth breaker, which lowers attack speed by 4 or more. I'd cut this entirely or nearly entirely, because a tank piece shouldn't really get a 48% damage boost.

    I'd cut the skill points as well, because with the requirement, you can max defense with just this and a few accessories. That's kinda nuts. (I'd also make it a legendary, but that's purely rarity based).

    The major ID needs to be balanced, but overall I quite like. Honestly, that's why this post is long; even if item itself is flawed, I really like the idea of a tank piece that helps compensate for poor dps with a passive AoE that hurts you as well. You'd have to either stack regen or lifesteal in order to survive, which I like because it allows the player to build around something other than their weapon or poison, which is something I think this game really needs.
     
  11. Qzphs

    Qzphs i make wfa builds

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    Searching wynndata (80-130 armors, sorted ascendingly for ws) suggests that the walkspeed is kind of in line with other negative walkspeed items, if only a little on the lenient side. I could understand if you wanted to nerf it to the same level as The Golem, for instance, but a drastic change isn't necessary. The overall strength of the item is better toned down by considering other downsides.

    also if gma gets to get away with -6% base walkspeed then why shouldn't this tbh

    The buffs aren't so numerous anymore after you take out some of the worst offenders. While I was designing my CI in this thread I felt that removing these two IDs on top of everything else would make for quite a barren final design, stat-wise.

    Another wynndata search (80-130 armors, sorted for req defense then fire damage) shows that defensive items with fire damage are existent, so it's not unreasonable for Molten Heart to carry it too. I get that 48% max is too much (hence to why I dropped it to 26% in my CI). However, I think that having an offensive stat like this one on the item complements Scorch, as well as setting it apart from Hetusol. Not all defensive items need to be fully invested into defense, and this concept isn't really on the end of the spectrum.

    30 defense looked like a lot on his item design, but with such a high def req it's impractical to capitalise on it. A fire mythic alone would likely diminish the utility of the skill points, let alone a full build. You can try building using his CI if you want to get a feel for it. There's nothing really wrong with maxing out defense anyway; maxing it alone is usually reasonable, and with an item like that you're going to have a tough time incorporating the agility as well.

    Lifesteal is more attractive than regen because the item has neutral lifesteal and you're going to want to be in close quarters with enemies anyway. Regen looks great on his original concept but it's unlikely to work as effectively after implementing your suggestions.
     
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  12. Melkor

    Melkor The dark enemy of the world HERO

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    I agree on the fire damage, I was comparing it a bit too much to hetusol, without regard for the fact that hetusol is kind of going for the opposite thing. Honestly, this would be better as an offensive fire chestplate, since that's kinda already what it is. Leave the high damage, give it lifesteal, and cut the health to like 1/4. That would make it still defensive, but very much a strong offensive option for a fire melee (or even spellsteal) build. I'd almost give it skill points in dex or strength (I'd go with dex so it fits with cinderchain) to try to capitalize on that. There are very few truly offensive fire items, and honestly with this major ID this would work really well with that. Giving it lifesteal of its own might be a little too strong, but on the other hand, that would make it fit even better as an offensive fire item.
    ________________________________
    https://wynndata.tk/ci/132650357
    Maybe even something a little like this, which could go towards with heavy melee or spell steal.
    ________________________________
    That's definitely too strong, but with some balancing might work.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  13. _Dazzle

    _Dazzle Todd Howard of class building, 5 Mythics found

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    @Qzphs and @Melkor have definitely made good points, your suggestion is busted.

    This is my take on the item:
    moltenheart.png
    What this means is that you're basically going to burn away 4% of your max HP every second, which can be balanced out with items like Boreal and Cancer. Also forgot to mention on the item segment that:
    1. Burn damage is not amplified by Fire Damage%
    2. The major ID is turned off in "Safe" areas like Detlas so you don't scorch yourself to oblivion, or by shift-right clicking with an empty hand (first toggleable Major ID?)
    3. The damage is Neutral damage, but does not respect Defense so you're going to lose 4% of your health, flat, every second
    4. Fire and Air defenses can be reduced (along with health) if it's too powerful
    This is just one iteration, which serves the role of Mega Tank (note that you can get away with building WFA and still countering the downsides of this item very easily), the other two (three?) iterations are also worth checking out as they are possibly more balanced.

    EDIT: Might need to add additional -hpr (raw) because this is just one of many applications for this item
     
  14. Qzphs

    Qzphs i make wfa builds

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    yOuR sUgGeStIoN iS bUsTeD

    You just… brought out a fabled FA chestplate with 7k health. That beats everything in the game bar Statue and 2 mythics, notably beating both Hetusol and Rekkr by a margin of 2k, and beats Leo in the only stat it's good for.

    On top of that 99/99 is insane sp reqs, crucially more restrictive than the FA mythic itself but also outdoing every other mythic armor bar Discoverer.

    There was absolutely no reason to pull agility into this. Molten Heart, from the way Alyrezec portrayed it, is not ultratank. It's not even standard tank. Molten Heart intends to offer an additional damage option to the tank playstyle. So why force 228 defensive skill points? There's no other item in the game — not Statue, not Guardian, not Ignis, not Crusade Sabatons… none of them — that do this. Boreal comes closest but doesn't bother with skill points at all, instead focusing on regen utility at its core concept.

    And why strip all damage from this item? Why discard the fire damage? Why eliminate the major ID's interaction with fire damage? I think it's reasonable and justified by the item lore that it's an offensive-biased tank option, as I've pointed out already. Your CI feels fundamentally different from Alyrezec's aim — it's simply not the same item anymore.

    I also find it insulting that you've renamed his major ID. Scorch was fine as is.

    I've said this, but Mega Tank isn't the role of the concept at all.

    You can't get away with building any viable WFA on those reqs. You're just building FA. For instance, why would you ever counter the -mr on your CI? Could you feasibly do it? I doubt you could with 99/99 reqs. It would be like building offense on Boreal, but even harder, would it not? If you believe otherwise, prove it.

    The downsides aren't countered very easily. The downsides that were relevant to original idea were countered very easily. I'll reiterate again, 99/99 FA reqs are a nightmare to get around. You're going to find it even worse since losing the chestplate slot to this will entail losing Frontliner, so I wish you as much luck as you're going to get building for this without either going hard ultratank or sacrificing multiple items as sp slaves.


    I stand by my CI. I think I've done what I can to put it in line with existing items while conserving the original concept. But it's wrong to discard the identity of an item entirely in a vain attempt to "balance" it, which is what I'm seeing here.
     
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  15. _Dazzle

    _Dazzle Todd Howard of class building, 5 Mythics found

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    To each, their own item suggestion. The argument here is my take on it, not a "the definitive" rebalance. If it feels imbalanced, I can easily diminish almost everything the item has and reduce it to bare bones, if that's what you're trying to say.

    Also worth noting that I called the initial suggestion "busted", not the rebalancing efforts. It's a visual mess, and the IDs are dime a dozen, making it too versatile, IDs wise.

    I will post an "Iteration 2" soon, albeit not here.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020 at 12:16 PM
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  16. Qzphs

    Qzphs i make wfa builds

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    The rebalancing efforts aren't relevant here. I didn't say anything about the other rebalancing efforts. I'm also not claiming that you're wrongfully proposing a "definitive" rebalance. I'm telling you that your take on the item is invalid because it strays too far away from the identity of the concept. As I said,

    This is a narrow-minded way of thinking. Supposedly, if your proposed stats are invalid, we should remove them, and thus "reduce the item to bare bones" since deleting a majority of your additions would indeed result in a nearly featureless item design. This isn't sound reasoning. It's not only about the stats you've brought up. Like I said, this isn't a minor problem like "oh this ID is a bit too high on the CI". You've taken the item concept into another direction entirely.

    Fire damage is easily integrated back into the item, for instance, among a number of other candidates which Melkor and I recognised prior to your contribution. You've tagged both of us acknowledging our posts, so I expect that you've actually read what we had to say.
    We didn't write 4 posts just to tell Alyrezec that his item design was busted. We both made substantial efforts to firstly offer alternatives to improve the details of the design, and secondly to discuss each other's opinions on the item. In our posts, I've already raised several points which you've simply ignored without any clear reasoning:

    Yes? Okay. I hope that the second iteration you post is made with all relevant considerations in mind.
     
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