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Lets Fix Defense. [now In Game.]

Discussion in 'General Suggestions' started by JaydonTheWarrior, Nov 20, 2018.

?

What suggestions do you support.

All of them

120 vote(s)

89.6%
Just section 1

2 vote(s)

1.5%
Just section 2

4 vote(s)

3.0%
Both sections 1 and 2

3 vote(s)

2.2%
None of them

5 vote(s)

3.7%

Thread Status:: Not open for further replies.

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JaydonTheWarrior Nerf tanks, buff warrior. HERO

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PrimaNocta said: ↑

nani?
Click to expand...

You voted for just suggestion 2.
I was wondering why.

________________________________

@Epicness937 @Cooking Main

I was wondering why the support for only suggestion one.
Please if you could give a reason, and possibly feedback.

If you can't think of a reason, please consider changing your vote.

-=-=-=-

By the way, my issue with all of this is that I haven't heard even a single downside to any of the suggestions here. In fact, the only form of reason for voting negatively anyone has offered is "You sound full of yourself."

JaydonTheWarrior, Apr 5, 2019

#61

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JaydonTheWarrior said: ↑

You voted for just suggestion 2.
I was wondering why.

________________________________

@Epicness937 @Cooking Main

I was wondering why the support for only suggestion one.
Please if you could give a reason, and possibly feedback.

If you can't think of a reason, please consider changing your vote.

-=-=-=-

By the way, my issue with all of this is that I haven't heard even a single downside to any of the suggestions here. In fact, the only form of reason for voting negatively anyone has offered is "You sound full of yourself."
Click to expand...

Because I can't seem to think logically enough to realize it removes tier effects on tanks rather than changing how high speed weps work in pve...I was reading it way to late

however I'm not a fan of 3 because I personally think elemental defense works better as a stand alone stat and agility should be nerfed rather than non defense sp focused "rainbow tanks" not exist. assuming I'm understanding correctly

Epicness937, Apr 5, 2019

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JaydonTheWarrior Nerf tanks, buff warrior. HERO

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Epicness937 said: ↑

Because I can't seem to think logically enough to realize it removes tier effects on tanks rather than changing how high speed weps work in pve...I was reading it way to late

however I'm not a fan of 3 because I personally think elemental defense works better as a stand alone stat and agility should be nerfed rather than non defense sp focused "rainbow tanks" not exist. assuming I'm understanding correctly
Click to expand...

Tier affects on tanks? what?
I'm confused as to what you mean

Do you mean it affects how tier attack speed affects element defense?
Because no, it does not affect tier attack at all.

Here look, give me two builds.
I will tell you what one does to the other ok?

Last edited: Apr 5, 2019

JaydonTheWarrior, Apr 5, 2019

#63
Epicness937 Thesead water god. HERO

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JaydonTheWarrior said: ↑

Tier affects on tanks? what?
I'm confused as to what you mean

Do you mean it affects how tier attack speed affects element defense?
Because no, it does not affect tier attack at all.

Here look, give me two builds.
I will tell you what one does to the other ok?
Click to expand...

No i messed up my own understanding for the second one. I get what your saying and realise it's good. I thought it was a totally different thing. However regardless I'm sorta curious on this system cause I an really slow to follow it...

Epicness937, Apr 5, 2019

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Epicness937 said: ↑

No i messed up my own understanding for the second one. I get what your saying and realise it's good. I thought it was a totally different thing. However regardless I'm sorta curious on this system cause I an really slow to follow it...
Click to expand...

I put the formulas in the suggestion, but if you want to give me two builds I will tell you the max and min damage they can do to one and another.

JaydonTheWarrior, Apr 5, 2019

#65
Panyadas noah VIP+

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Hey man, great post?

Panyadas, Apr 5, 2019

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JaydonTheWarrior Nerf tanks, buff warrior. HERO

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Panyadas said: ↑

Hey man, great post?
Click to expand...

Great post with a question mark I see. XD

JaydonTheWarrior, Apr 8, 2019

#67
H0Y H0Y HERO

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JaydonTheWarrior said: ↑

Great post with a question mark I see. XD
Click to expand...

A reply with an XD i see.

H0Y, Apr 8, 2019

#68
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JaydonTheWarrior said: ↑

Great post with a question mark I see. XD
Click to expand...

I.... Ummmm.... er...... It was a great post! Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Panyadas, Apr 8, 2019

#69
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make tanking great again, fellas

Mettymagic, Apr 10, 2019

#70
Cladiator1321 Well-Known Adventurer

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Good idea guys

Cladiator1321, Apr 12, 2019

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JaydonTheWarrior said: ↑

Welcome, too, what may be the longest general suggestion you've ever read, so I'm dividing it into sections because that won't only make it easier to read, but this is also made up of many changes. Such a long thread and the number of changes are needed simply because of the straight up broken system we currently have is; It bearly functions, and when it does, it fails to work in an at all balanced way, so, let's get started.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Section one: The Defense Cap

Summary: Make defense multiple and not add.

Our current system has a cap to the damage reduction the defense stat can negate, that currently being 95%. While this is perfectly functional in balancing warrior's old ability to take no natural damage, there is a straight up a better way to do it, one in which it not only fixes that issue in a better way but also fixes a few other issues.

In order to make this easier to digest, I will be giving an example of how our current system works. At this exact moment, the base defense of a class ether reduces or increase the functionality of the defense stat, then resistance is added on top of it, then its capped at a 95% neutral damage reduction. The formal currently being, base defense + 80.8% (150 def points) + additional (war scream or vanish), then its capped at 95%. This means that both assassin and warrior cap at 95% neutral defense, mage caps at 60.8% neutral defense without war scream, and archer is 40.8% neutral defense without war scream.

The fix is simple, make the calculations multiplication instead. That means your second reduction is multiplied to the result of the first reduction. When calculated like this warrior will have at max neutral defense of 87.712%, an assassin will have 83.68% natural defense, a mage will have 76.96% neutral defense, and an archer will have 73.12% neutral defense. This not only removes the need for a defense cap but also fixes many issues, such as archers being nearly unusable as a tank, and warriors needing far too little defense to hit the cap.

Positives
-No need for defense cap
- Archers and mages can actually tank
-Warriors and Assassins no longer reach the 95% cap
-Warriors no longer only need 78 defense to get to 95% cap

Negatives
-None

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Section two: Element Defense

Summary: Put element defense at the end of the formula

Element defense is, to put it simply, an issue. Currently, the calculations bearly make sense much less function. The way they work somehow makes it simultaneous the only viable way to be a tank, and also far too useless when it doesn't work. It currently reduces the base damage you take, the base damage being an amalgamation of the actual base damage of your weapon or your enemies plus their skill points.

This is an issue because if your element defense doesn't reduce the damage to 0 by the time the rest of the calculations come threw, you end up taking a shit ton of damage, but there's another issue, it makes neglecting the damage of a high attack speed, or a high spell damage items all too easy. Something like Pure or Thrunda crack proves all to useless against an element tank or a mob with high element defense. At the same time, things like Stinger or Alkatraz do far too much, and the defense barely matters, keep in mind, this all applies to PvE as well, not just PvP. There's no in-between, it's either all or nothing, heads or tails.

While Salted or a few other gm's may point this out as a mistake they made on propose, in order to influence the use of slower attack speed weapons against element defense, and higher attack speed when something is weak to an element. Both he and the remaining members of the team need to realize it just doesn't work. It doesn't make players do what they wanted them to, and it breaks the balance of the game. Fix it.

The fix is again, simple. Moving the reduction to the end of the formula instead of somewhere near the front, then making the attack speed of the weapon multiply the amount of defense the enemy has. That's it, that's all that needs to be done. How it fixes the issues are best shown through an example; Let's say I hit a mob with 250 thunder defense with a Thrunda Crack, now my Thrunda crack just so happens to hit the lowest possible damage, so that's 250*4.2 being 1k, then 3700-1000 (3700 being Thrundacracks base uppercut damage.) so I dealt 2700 damage instead of none at all. Not only does this make element defense not the end all be all for tanking, but it also makes attack speed still matter when it comes to its effect on element weakness.

Positives
- Just overall more balanced
-Makes other forms of tanking just as viable
-Still makes attack speed effect damage done
-No more immortal warrior element tank
-Makes rainbow slap less effective

Negatives
-None

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Section three: Defense Stat

Summary: make defense stat affect element damage.

Some of the readers out there may have realized that if element defense is patched, then there is no viable form of tanking besides agility because the defense doesn't affect element damage taken. That's all this section is. When combined with sections 2 and sections 1, making defense affect element defense actual becomes a viable suggestion. It makes it just as effective as agility would be, as long as you calculate it after element defense, then make resistance only affect neutral.

As a summary, the calculations would be as follows.
The same situation as before but I'm now hitting a player with max defense with my Thrunda Crack. It would go as the following.
((All damage calculations)-(Element defense * attack speed))(1-Defense stat).
So (3700-1000)=2700*(1-.8) = 540 damage taken, Instead of the current no damage taken.
This not only fixes the issue of defense being the worst stat point per point, but also makes other forms of tanking besides element tanks viable, no longer will rainbow slap be the king, things like Leo, and Adamatite would actually be viable.

Positives
-Means defense is no longer the straight up the worst stat
-Means there's almost never a way to take 0 damage
-Makes items like Leo finally usable
-Means defense is exactly as viable as agility
-Fixes damage calculations

Negatives
- None when combined with Sections 1 and 2

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I would like to thank both @SilverMirror and @Major_Lue for there help on this suggestion. Both of them helped greatly, and I hope for there support on the idea.
I'm tempted to @ Salted to get to the heart of the issue, simply because I know his reluctant to fix what needs to be fixed, for the sake of it being the way he wants it to be. I'm hoping being such a simple list of fixes, and seeing the possible number of supporters will make him go through with what he doesn't feel like doing.

Note, none of these changes are meant to be the end all be all best solution to the issues we are facing, but all of them are very simple fixes that could fix our current system, something someone could go in and change in a day or two.
Better fixes then these would require an entirely new system, which we can all agree we need.
This thread is meant to point out some very basic changes salted could agree upon to fix his game in its current state, and I hope he's smart enough to realize his game needs them as well.

I would like to clarify something. People seem to think that me saying there are no negatives is some kind of praising of my own system. Allow me to clarify, its supposed to mean there are no negatives moving from what we have now to this. There are still negatives that this doesn't get to, but in order to change those we would need an entirely new system, one in which this thread isn't about. This is about optimizing our current system, without needing to change much more than a few lines of code.

If however, anyone can find negatives that this adds to the game (Not already existing ones, simply based off this being a very changed version of our current system, and not a new one)
Please inform me, and I will add them.

Click here for formulas as I don't think people realized they were here.

Warrior's DC: 1.2
Assassin's DC: 1
Mage's DC: .8
Archer's DC: .6

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Neutral defense:

variables:
Attack Damage Gross (AD)
Defense Stat (DS)
Defense Class (DC)
Defense Bonuses (DB)

AD*(1-DB)*(1-DS)*(2-DC)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Element defense formula:

Variables:
Attack Damage Gross (AD)
Attack Speed Modifier (AS)
Defense Elemental (DE)
Defense Stat (DS)
Defense Class (DC)

(AD - (AS*DE)) * (1 - DS) * (2 - DC)

Now comes with slightly salted support.
He has confirmed that the first and thrid suggestions are meant to be how this is all calculated.
(So no he didn't directly support them but close enough)
As for the 2nd one, salted has not yet spoken. We remain in silence.
Click to expand...

I can definitely say this is not the longest I have ever seen. Not even close.

3XTWISTEDTITAN, Apr 16, 2019

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JaydonTheWarrior Nerf tanks, buff warrior. HERO

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Shitposting 101 said: ↑

make tanking great again, fellas
Click to expand...

Actually makes most froms of tanking do less.

3XTWISTEDTITAN said: ↑

I can definitely say this is not the longest I have ever seen. Not even close.
Click to expand...

Ok cool? Sorry?

JaydonTheWarrior, Apr 16, 2019

#73
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10/10 would fix defense again

CanadianMacaroni, Apr 21, 2019

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JaydonTheWarrior said: ↑

Actually makes most froms of tanking do less.

Ok cool? Sorry?
Click to expand...

Nah it's fine. I fully support this.

3XTWISTEDTITAN, Apr 23, 2019

#75

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MacaroniMC said: ↑

10/10 would fix defense again
Click to expand...

Can't tell if this is sarcasm, but thank you if not?

Last edited: May 2, 2019

JaydonTheWarrior, Apr 23, 2019

#76
NicBOMB Maker of Builds | Lurks on Forums | 1 Mythic Found CHAMPION

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JaydonTheWarrior said: ↑

Welcome to possibly the longest general suggestion you've ever read. I'm dividing the thread into sections for easier reading and better organization of the many changes I discuss. Such a long thread is necessary because there are so many suggested changes to fix the broken Defense system we currently have, as it barely functions and isn't balanced.

For reference:
Class: Base Defense
Warrior: 1.2
Assassin: 1
Mage: .8
Archer: .6

Summary: Make Defense Multiplicative Not Additive

The current system has a cap to the damage reduction defense can negate, being 95%. While this is necessary to prevent warriors from negating all incoming neutral damage (100%), there is a better way to fix this without incurring the other issues that additive defense entails.

Variable names in order of appearance in formula followed by (corresponding symbol):
Base Damage (B)
Defense % (P)
Defense Points (D)
Defense Class (C)

B*(1-P)*(1-D)*(2-C)

To make this easier to follow, I will give an example of how the current system works and compare with my suggestion. Right now the base defense of a class either reduces or increases the effect of the defense stat, then resistance is added on top of it, and finally, its capped at 95% neutral damage reduction. The current formula is:
base defense + 80.8% (150 def points) + additional (war scream or vanish), then its capped at 95%.
This means both assassin and warrior cap at 95% neutral defense, while mage caps at 60.8% neutral defense without war scream, and archer caps at 40.8% neutral defense without war scream.

If we use multiplication for calculations instead, we can drop the cap entirely. That means our second reduction is multiplied to the result of the first reduction. When calculated with multiplication:
warriors max at 87.712%
assassin max at 83.68%
mage max at 76.96%
archer max at 73.12%
This not only removes the need for a defense cap but also fixes many issues like archers' inability to tank and warriors' low requirement for max defense.

Fixes
- No need for hard defense cap at 95%
- Archers and mages can spec for tanking
- Warriors and Assassins can no longer reach 95%
- Warriors now need more than 78 defense to reach max

Summary: Calculate Elemental Defense Last

Currently, the elemental defense calculations make little sense, much less function. Elemental defense is simultaneously the only viable way to tank damage and also useless. Elemental defense simply reduces the base damage of incoming attacks. Base damage is a combination of the base damage of your opponent's weapon plus their skill points.

This is an issue because elemental defense modifiers are applied after the base damage is calculated, which means when the base damage isn't reduced to 0 before modifiers are applied, then players take a shit ton of damage. But there's still another issue: it makes negating the damage of a high attack speed/low base damage item all too easy. Weapons like Pure and Thrunda crack can almost or entirely be negated by element tanks and mobs with high element defense. At the same time, weapons like Stinger and Alkatraz have far too much to effectively block making defense irrelevant. All these problems exist in PvE AND PvP. There's no in-between for defenses, it's either all or nothing. Receive all incoming damage or negate all incoming damage.

While Salted or a few other gm's point this out as a feature used to encourage the use of slower attack speed weapons against high elemental defense and higher attack speed weapons against opponents with weaknesses. Both he and the remaining members of the team need to realize that isn't the case. It doesn't make players do what they wanted and breaks the balance of the game. Fix it.

Variable names in order of appearance in formula followed by (corresponding symbol):
Base Damage (B)
Attack Speed Modifier (A)
Elemental Defense (E)
Defense Points (D)
Class Base Defense (C)

(B - (A*E)) * (1 - D) * (2 - C)

I suggest moving the defense reduction to the end of the formula instead of the front, then making the attack speed of the weapon multiply the elemental defenses of the enemy. The effects of the fix are best shown in an example:

Let's say I hit a mob with 250 thunder defense with a Thrundacrack. My Thrunda just so happens to hit the lowest possible damage of 250*4.2 resulting in 1050 damage. Now subtracting the new defense reduction from my damage at the end gets 3700-1050 (3700 being Thrunda's base uppercut damage.) means I dealt 2650 damage instead of none at all.

This fixes Elemental Defense which enables other forms of tanking, reduces the effect of elemental defense on low base damage weapons, and uses the attack speed multiplier to balance damage instead of base damage.

Fixes
- Overall more balanced
- Makes attack speed effect damage done
- No more immortal warrior element tank
- Makes rainbow slap less effective
- Rainbow can do some damage to armored targets rather than 0

Summary: Make Defense Reduce Incoming Elemental Damage

You may have realized if elemental defense is patched then only agility is able to mitigate incoming elemental damage because defense doesn't affect elemental damage taken. When combined with sections 1 and 2, including defense in the calculations makes sense as it balances defense with agility when calculated after elemental defense. Then it's making resistance affect neutral only will finish off those changes.

As a summary, the calculations would be as follows:

The same situation as before but I'm now hitting a player with max defense with my Thrundacrack.
((All damage calculations)-(Element defense * attack speed))(1-Defense stat)
So (3700-1050)=2650*(1-.8) = 530 damage inflicted
Up 530 from the current 0 damage.

This fixes the issue of defense being the worst stat point per point and prevents rainbow slap from being the king of damage reduction. Armor like Leo and Adamantite would actually be viable.

Fixes
- Defense is no longer the worst stat
- Almost never a way to negate all damage
- Items like Adamantite are usable
- Defense is exactly as effective as agility

I would like to thank both @SilverMirror and @Major_Lue for their help on this suggestion. Both of them helped greatly, and I hope for their support on the idea.
I'm tempted to @ Salted to get to the heart of the issue because I know he is reluctant to fix what needs to be fixed simply because he likes it the way it is. I'm hoping such a simple list of fixes and seeing the community's support will encourage him go to make necessary changes, even if they aren't exactly as I described.

Note: None of these changes are meant to be the end all be all best solution to the issues we are facing, but all of them are very simple ways to fix our current systems.
This thread is meant to describe basic changes we could agree on to fix the game. I hope salted is smart enough to realize his game and the community needs him as well.

Now comes with slightly Salted support.
Salted confirmed that the first and third suggestions are meant to be how this is all calculated.
(So no he didn't directly support them but very close)
As for the 2nd one, Salted has not yet spoken. We will wait.

I would like to clarify something. People seem to think that me saying there are no negatives is some kind of praising of my own system. Allow me to clarify, its supposed to mean there are no negatives moving from what we have now to this. There are still negatives that this doesn't get to, but in order to change those we would need an entirely new system, one in which this thread isn't about. This is about optimizing our current system, without needing to change much more than a few lines of code.

If however, anyone can find negatives that this adds to the game (Not already existing ones, simply based off this being a very changed version of our current system, and not a new one)
Please inform me, and I will add them.

Click here for formulas as I don't think people realized they were here.

Warrior's DC: 1.2
Assassin's DC: 1
Mage's DC: .8
Archer's DC: .6

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Neutral defense:

variables:
Attack Damage Gross (AD)
Defense Stat (DS)
Defense Class (DC)
Defense Bonuses (DB)

AD*(1-DB)*(1-DS)*(2-DC)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Element defense formula:

Variables:
Attack Damage Gross (AD)
Attack Speed Modifier (AS)
Defense Elemental (DE)
Defense Stat (DS)
Defense Class (DC)

(AD - (AS*DE)) * (1 - DS) * (2 - DC)

Click to expand...

Bump! My edits were added ;) Happy reading!

NicBOMB, May 2, 2019

#77
Druser ele defs don't matter HERO Featured Wynncraftian

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Per motoki, elemental defense is calculated after ID/sp boosts, so it wouldn't really have an undue effect on Pure.

Druser, May 2, 2019

#78
JaydonTheWarrior Nerf tanks, buff warrior. HERO

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Druser said: ↑

Per motoki, elemental defense is calculated after ID/sp boosts, so it wouldn't really have an undue effect on Pure.
Click to expand...

What do you mean?

JaydonTheWarrior, May 2, 2019

#79
Druser ele defs don't matter HERO Featured Wynncraftian

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JaydonTheWarrior said: ↑

What do you mean?
Click to expand...

You take Pure's damage, apply the +500% spell damage, armor damage boost IDs, skill points boost (Str/Dex and also elemental affinity boosts), and then subtract the elemental defense (and after that apply attack speed multiplier, which I actually like that mechanic because it allows for things like Quinque's weakness absue gimmick).

Druser, May 2, 2019

#80

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