1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
Dismiss Notice
Wynncraft, the Minecraft MMORPG. Play it now on your Minecraft client at (IP): play.wynncraft.com. No mods required! Click here for more info...

Media Yet Another The Eye Solo - Archer ( No Pot / No Hawkeye )

Discussion in 'Wynncraft' started by YYGAYMER, Dec 13, 2019.

?

What to do What to do

  1. Lunar Spine

    26.3%
  2. Aledar/Tasim no pot

    10.5%
  3. Pandemonium

    23.7%
  4. Heavy melee warrior (now buffed!)

    18.4%
  5. ETW....

    11.8%
  6. Forest Aconite

    7.9%
  7. Horse riding (with new fabled boots but rip money)

    26.3%
  8. wtf YY still not doing spider build

    55.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. seeksery

    seeksery Wybel Photographer HERO

    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    146
    Minecraft:
    Tfw I literally state this in my post and you choose to conveniently ignore it
    Perhaps try clicking the spoiler to reveal the text within
     
  2. NajimiChan

    NajimiChan Ya-Hooo ^o^ HERO

    Messages:
    965
    Likes Received:
    1,354
    Trophy Points:
    148
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    Thank you for being factual.
    Only replying to the thing that you find on my post that slightly disturbs you.

    Anyway. As I was saying:
    You are expecting a big portion of the playerbase to know how the game works, have decent builds and be skilled.
    But that is just not how the game works.

    In fact there are more level 100 and above players than you know about, and most of them actually play the game for fun and not to tryhard.

    Imagine this: A new player starts off his adventure.
    He gets to level 2.
    Quite fast. Barely the tutorial and some mobs and they are probably already there.

    They start to slowly make their adventure. Because of all the quests and grind spots, it takes the person barely 40 hours of ingame time to reach level 80.
    Now, after around 50 hours ingame, they are level 100. It really doesn't take that long to reach level 100 nowadays.

    And now what. They have the build consisting of the stuff they got so far. Maybe, though not that likely, they have found themselves a decent build. But all the bosses so far have been decently enough.
    So we have a player that has barely 50 hours of ingame experience now attempting the EO. With no endgame build made for bosses whatsoever.

    Guess how that will go? The player will slowly have to figure out the boss, during a period of dying and learning.
    You cannot call that an easy boss then, do you? No.


    Again, this game is about the majority of the people. And because you cannot be arsed to actually reply to my arguments, and instead only reply to the stuff I by accident did wrong and criticise me for it, I feel like not responding to you either. Have fun being overpowered and quite possibly shaming everyone that hasn't played as much and cannot solo the Eye. Because by saying it is too easy, you're doing exactly that.
     
    coolaccountname and CountBurn like this.
  3. seeksery

    seeksery Wybel Photographer HERO

    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    146
    Minecraft:
    Alright, then, factual time
    This doesn't "slightly disturb me", as one of the main basises of your argument is, in fact:
    By ignoring what I had said about lag, you had completely missed the point that lag is not a reasonable measure of difficulty, as it is likely not intended.
    After all, it's definitely certain that
    but the lack of connection, while making the fight itself difficult, does not make the boss by design difficult. It would seem that there has been a miscommunication: I am arguing that the boss by design is not difficult, while you are arguing that the fight is difficult.
    I am in complete agreement that the fight is way too difficult. I am arguing that the boss is way too easy.
    However, this is a rather specific distinction, so here's an explanation for your benefit:
    Any given fight requires the player to both win and not lose.
    This sounds odd, as winning and not losing are typically seen as the same thing, but they aren't always.
    For example, you can not lose but not win a fight by running away from the boss.
    A basic enemy in Wynncraft would have two components: damage dealt and damage it can take. When fighting it, therefore, there are two basic conditions that have to be fulfilled:
    Win: kill the enemy
    Not Lose: don't get hit
    Of course, with an enemy with hpr, this changes to:
    Win: outdamage the hpr
    Not Lose: don't get hit
    And with spells:
    Win: outdamage the hpr
    Not Lose: don't get hit, avoid spells
    But what distinguishes a difficult fight and a difficult boss? Here's an example of respectively a difficult boss with an easy fight and an easy boss with a difficult fight:
    Garoth
    Old Giant Rat
    Garoth has the following conditions:
    Win: outdamage creeper hpr, blow up floor, lure garoth
    Not lose: don't get hit, avoid spells, avoid lava
    Charon has three win conditions, which is much higher than the one found in earlier dungeons
    However, he is still not much of a challenge. Why? We'll get to that.
    Old Giant Rat
    Win: kill the rat
    Not lose: don't get hit
    However, at level, giant rat is one of the hardest fights in the game. The rat has ridiculous hp and will kill you in one hit.
    This is why:
    A difficult boss is one that has many conditions that need to be fulfilled.
    A difficult fight is one that makes the given conditions hard to fulfill.
    Once again, given lag, bad builds, etc, the eye is a difficult fight. I do not dispute this.
    However, in terms of actual design, the eye is underwhelming in difficulty. The following conditions are:
    Win: kill the boss (no hpr)
    Not Lose: recover from wretches, avoid spells, don't get hit from eyes, survive transitional phases
    While there is a high amount of conditions, there is only one win condition (compare to Garoth, who has 3). The difficulty of the fight comes front the almost impossibility of not losing.
    My argument is that the eye is not a difficult boss, as outside of its special attacks, it's just a massive hp wall that doesn't heal or regenerate, having no special win conditions.
    Tl;dr: the fight is difficult, but the boss is not
     
  4. btdmaster

    btdmaster Well-Known Adventurer

    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    54
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    Are you saying that the eye itself is easy, but the fact that there's other mobs beating you up, wretches spawning etc that AREN'T the boss itself, that makes the fight hard?
     
  5. NajimiChan

    NajimiChan Ya-Hooo ^o^ HERO

    Messages:
    965
    Likes Received:
    1,354
    Trophy Points:
    148
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    My main argument is still that the Majority of Players is not that good equipped and does not have that much skill.
    But thank you for once again completely ignoring that.

    Additionally, you are unable to argue that lag is not intended.
    Lag is always there, hence no one in their right mind would program a multiplayer game with need for perfect timing. Timing could therefor not be a way to make a boss harder.
    Which is why this boss has you look out for many things at once, unlike all other bosses. Most bosses barely have any other mechanics you have to look out for, but here you have a huge variety of spells and events happening at the same time. That is exactly what most people do not and will not expect in the boss fight and really have to adjust to.
    But yeah, completely disregard the majority thing.

    Anyway. You cannot separate Fight and Boss.
    The Win Conditions of the Fight are The Following, if you really take into account everything
    Kill the Eye, Survive the fight
    Whereas killing the Eye and Surviving the fight are tied together really closely. You have to get close to the eye to kill it, which therefor greatly increases the risk of not surviving the fight. To survive the fight you have to avoid dying.
    That does not mean you cannot be hit. That's wrong. But you have to outheal the damage you take. Which, in turn, is quite the serious deed considering all that is going on in the arena. You have to watch out for
    Eye spells, including Pull, Push, Meteor, Wave, Lazer, Mobs, Arrow Storm, Bite
    Arena spells, including the Sides of the Arena, the back, Wretches.
    You have to look out for around 11 (I may have forgotten something) things all the while staying alive and outhealing the damage you receive. In the long term, if you focus on surviving, you will run out of potions. You have to deal a fair amount of damage in order for that to not happen. Either that, or you focus too much on damage and die quicker.
    Both options end up in failure. Damage-focus, Defense-Focus. It is about the balance of those two that you can actually win by surviving and killing the boss.

    And that is the sole reason why most players are unlikely to find the fight easy. The boss is part of the fight. Without a boss, there would be no fight. The HP-wall is there to make the fight harder. And all that matters in EO, in that regard, is the fight. Hell, it is an eyeball that already is able to oversee an entire province, and use around 8 or so spells "at once". More than any other mob or boss in the entire game. If we really consider the arena and all the things happening in it to be the eyes doing, we can assume it uses around 12 or so spells and attacks, maybe even more. Technically speaking, it is the toughest non-rng boss, have you ever seen it that way? All that happens in the arena can be controlled to some degree. No Charge-stack. No Tp-spam (except for the last phase but it doesn't deal that much damage).


    Tl;Dr
    The Boss is part of the fight and makes the fight harder in this Dungeon. It has the most spells of any mob in the game, the fight is not RNG and controlable, yet only by focusing on many things at once. Winning Condition is set high with that. Hence, it is a hard fight for the majority of people that do not have much experience and an endgame-build.
     
  6. O C U L I S M

    O C U L I S M help they put me in the basment HERO

    Messages:
    1,886
    Likes Received:
    3,873
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    Actually, the CT has done things where timing is involved; such as the old flying part in Royal Trials.

    The main complaint wasn’t necessarily lag, but it was just a pain in the ass in terms of Minecraft’s mechanics. Timing is just a pain in the ass in general, especially when you have to take into consideration younger children who might play the game but don’t have good reaction time or timing itself due to their stage in brain development.
     
  7. seeksery

    seeksery Wybel Photographer HERO

    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    146
    Minecraft:
    When did I make this argument? My argument was not that perfect timing was necessary: it was that lag is not a reasonable measurement of difficulty. What I meant by "lag is probably not intended" was that nobody in their right mind would use lag as a gameplay feature. If it were, then one could reasonably rate the lag of the battle as a factor in difficulty. However, as the lag has no bearing on the design of the boss, the lag is an issue with the game itself, not the boss.
    Sorry if this sounds a tad rude, but did you even read what I wrote? The survival is necessarily an integral part of the fight, but perhaps I should've made the distinction a bit more clear:
    This is obviously true. The entire point I was trying to make is that while you can not separate the boss and its fight, you can individually rank the difficulty of both. A boss that is conceptually difficult does not have to be practically difficult, and a boss that is conceptually easy does not have to be practically easy. Since the example I gave with Garoth and the Giant rat seems to have fallen flat, I'll compare two classic video game bosses: Bundt from Super Mario RPG and Ozzie 1 from Chrono Trigger.
    As both are RPG elements, it goes without saying that the main factors are HP and damage. Bundt can take 6 hits, while Ozzie is technically invincible. Respectively, to beat Bundt, you need to attack more often than it does (as each of its attacks restores one of its hits), while in the case of Ozzie, you can't defeat him by normal means. Therefore, conceptually, Bundt is an easier boss than Ozzie, as Bundt is a generic whack-it-until-it-dies boss while Ozzie requires an out-of-the-box tactic.
    However, in practice, Bundt is much more difficult than Ozzie, as fulfilling the win condition of attacking more often than it does is made much harder by the fact that the player can take damage and die. However, in the case of Ozzie, despite being more complex to beat in theory, solving the puzzle instantly wins the battle.
    Of course, this example is rather obtuse, so I'll compare Garoth and The Eye:
    You seem to be selectively quoting what I had said. I had made a point of necessarily making "winning" and "not losing" distinct; of course they're closely related, as to win, you need to not lose. However, the ability to do both are intrinsically tied to specific skills, as you had correctly mentioned when you summarized:
    Focusing on damage positively contributes to the win condition, while focusing on defense positive contributes to not losing. Nowhere in my post did I claim that surviving the boss was easy, after all. Once again, I completely agree that the fight is challenging for newer players. However, the boss is not in terms of design:
    The reason for this, of course, is not the lack of difficulty in not losing (though individually classifying each spell as something you need to dodge is a bit audacious, though if you find it that difficult to avoid all of them, that is your perspective), but the fact that the Eye has the most generic win condition possible whereas a portion of the previous endgame dungeons were somewhat unique (eg, Garoth, Charon, Redbeard, Corrupted Garoth, Corrupted Charon, Corrupted Slykaar, Antikythera Supercomputer) in how you actually killed them. The fact that the strongest living being in Wynn is a generic stab-it-until-it-dies enemy is wasted potential. Thus, the lack of difficulty in the boss as a design comes from the fact that there is only one thing you need to do in order to defeat win (in this definition, again, distinct from not losing).
    By comparison, Garoth requires you to do three things in order to damage him: kill the creepers, blow up the floor, and lure him into the hole. Thus, he is conceptually a difficult boss, as the process of winning is a complex, multi-step process. However, this fight is not difficult, as it is very easy to accomplish these three things by comparison. In the case of the Eye, as you correctly pointed out, damaging him is difficult due to the absurd amounts of damage that he deals. Of course, this makes for a difficult fight practically. However, as the Eye remains a generic hit-and-dodge enemy, he is an easy boss conceptually. One thing that I agree with is that not losing the fight against the Eye is very difficult on your first attempt. However, that is definitely more of a problem with not losing and less of a problem with winning. For a boss to be difficult, it needs variety in both.
    (A rule of thumb that you can see is that the difficulty of a boss is more closely related to its win conditions, while the difficulty of a fight is more closely related to its not lose conditions. Of course, the two aren't mutually exclusive, but this is generally the case.)
    The boss is easy. The fight is not.
    There is, again, a difference between something that is conceptually hard and something that is practically hard. I never claimed in my latter post that the fight was easy; I claimed quite the opposite:
    I can't find the exact CT quote, so feel free to attack me or accuse me of lying on this point, but the Eye was not intended to be soloed. Making it too difficult for the average player is the intention of the fight, and Aledar even outright states it before he dies. The Eye was designed to be a group effort and impossible for the average player to solo. The fact that it can currently be soloed points to a systematic problem in its win condition. Its not lose condition is already quite difficult (perhaps too much so: it gets to the point where large parties are essentially impossible, and I'm all for nerfing the Eye's attacks): the problem is that its win condition is way too simple, and especially so given that the Eye does not regenerate HP. In order to make the Eye a difficult boss, the win condition needs to be revised to have a soft (or hard, though that would be a bit painful) requirement for multiple people: this can be as simple as HP regeneration or as difficult as a class-specific shield. The Eye has a difficult battle, but is conceptually an easy boss.
    Besides:
    Which effectively negates what is arguably the most powerful of the Eye's attacks: the Deathknell Wretch (I say arguably since the attack can't actually kill you, but that's a subject for another time). As long as you immediately use a potion after getting hit with the laser (assuming you can't kill the Wretch), unless you have zero defensive stats and/or are running directly into the center of the room and/or the circles, the attack that is supposed to encourage team play is completely nullified, even for the average player. Of course, having no defensive stats is a nonissue, as the average player is expected to use stat potions (overpowered as they might be).
    Actually, with the coming of Order of the Grook (for reasons I'll specify later) and the new Qira, the player is more than expected to either be in a party or have a functional build. The new Qira fight is absolutely brutal compared to how it was rather recently, and without a proper endgame build/a party/potions, she will completely obliterate your hp in a matter of seconds. Additionally, every previous boss of the Hive puts increasing emphasis on the new Spell Combo system (which is first properly used in the CoW battle, but technically is a major point of difficulty for every boss altar). Therefore, while players may not have directly prepared for the scale of the spells that the Eye uses, they would have been more than prepared for bosses with increased difficulty in terms of avoiding hits. The greatest example would be the Orange Wybel: assume the player paid attention to casual NPC dialogue, made some connections in The Passage and Reclaiming the House, and isn't color-blind (so they would chose the Wybel lesson in Order of the Grook), they would know the existence of a secret Wybel (assuming the odd Godly crate message in chat didn't tip them off). Assuming they actually found the thing (I concede that this is moderately unfeasible, as the Boss Altar is extremely well-hidden and unlabeled), they would be treated to an immensely difficult boss fight: an immensely difficult boss fight that was so difficult, the LI version is weaker in some respects (especially with the new Spell Combos). While the disintegrator cores can no longer kill you in one hit, they provide more than enough incentive to pay attention to your surroundings. If they weren't enough, the pressure plates that swarm you with now-difficult Rowdy Wybels certainly will.
    (Note: Wybel is stronger than Cybel in terms of spells and damage: Wybel has more damaging spell combos [from what I've noticed] and does more overall damage [from what the CT had confirmed]).
    At this point, assuming the player had been playing blind (this assumption is very important for reasons that I will discuss soon), they would've have their fair share of bosses that took scores of attempt to beat (Tribal Zombie Chief [or any Boss Altar that they stumble upon], most dungeons, all major quest bosses). They would be no stranger to a boss that kills them multiple times. While it's easier to make the argument that the bosses are difficult, it's simply much more true to say that the player is inexperienced. This is not an insult, nor is it a generalization; the player is hit with a difficulty curve that does not mark an isolated incident of difficult but a shift in the baseline for difficulty (though Boss Altars are an interesting case).
    The only partial exception would be Boss Altars, which follow their own difficulty curve. However, the Tribal Zombie Chief is balanced along the absolute minimum that this curve allows, and is the only Boss Altar required to progress the game. Thus, it provides a good introduction to the baseline difficulty of Boss Altars.
    I obviously am not doing that intentionally, as I have no idea what you have or have not done by accident.
    With the introduction of Spell Combos, RNG was essentially heavily reduced as a factor in bosses. Taking that into account, the Eye is merely the most difficult boss, which shouldn't be much of a problem. After all:
    Therefore,
    So I fail to see how:
    is logically sound. Do not misunderstand; my claim is not at all that the Eye is easy. My claim is that the Eye is conceptually an easy boss and soloing it is too easy, given that it was designed for multiple average-level players to defeat.
    But there is a point I brought above that I didn't acknowledge earlier, so here it is: the assumption that the player is playing blind.
    Some of the major points in your argument:
    are entirely based on the assumption that the player does not ask anybody for help, does not look at any Wynn-related content and similar forms of help, does not receive help, and ignores shouts asking for help. While this assumption is reasonable to make (though there's an argument to be made about ??? and Bob's Tomb), the fact of the matter is that it's much more likely that a majority of players will ask for help. Though expecting them to understand what a build is may be a bit presumptuous, expecting them to understand that some armor is better than others is not, unless they haven't played or seen any games with stats (including vanilla Minecraft), which is very unlikely. While the ever-dreaded question of "what is the best armor and weapon" brings dread to class builders across the globe, this usually results in the follow-up statement of something to the effect of "there is no best armor, it depends on your play style, what class, budget, what kind build are you looking for, etc". Should they actually be concerned about the gear that they're using, they'll likely legitimately and honestly answer the questions and in turn receive a passable build.
    Of course, expecting them to know that there is a discord and forums is a bit of a stretch -- or it would have been, if it was about a year ago. However, the help messages in chat helpfully point to the existence of both, and the King of Ragni's hint towards the Wynncraft Map all but guarantees it, since navigating from the map to the forums is one click; navigating from the forums to the discord is two clicks. Once again, there is argument to be made that some players may want to play the game blind, which is perfectly acceptable and understandable. However (and especially with the introduction of player ghosts), Wynncraft is increasingly trying to integrate new players with the community, probably for the very reason of providing them with help.
    I am not claiming that the Eye is easy. I am claiming that it's a conceptually easy boss and too easy to solo for something that is supposed to have a soft requirement of multiple people. There is, of course, a difference between the two, but you knew that already.
    Again, I agree that the damage that it does and the overall difficulty of the fight is completely absurd and likely needs to be polished. However, that is not what my claim was about.
     
  8. YYGAYMER

    YYGAYMER HICH gaming HIC Master HERO

    Messages:
    4,315
    Likes Received:
    11,566
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
  9. Shots

    Shots A Masochist of the Jungle HERO

    Messages:
    2,320
    Likes Received:
    5,651
    Trophy Points:
    209
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    So basically right this is the curse for using NONA LMAO NONA SUCKS LOL!
     
  10. DragonEngineer

    DragonEngineer Genetically Engineering a Dragon HERO

    Messages:
    1,822
    Likes Received:
    2,184
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Minecraft:
    Fight The Eye without pots and without killing wrench. Also no heal spell and health regen.
     
    YYGAYMER likes this.
  11. seeksery

    seeksery Wybel Photographer HERO

    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    146
    Minecraft:
    life steal/greed tank time
     
  12. rdrb1234

    rdrb1234 Well-Known Adventurer VIP+

    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Minecraft:
    Fight the eye with no armor or weapon.

    Do it coward.
     
  13. Oskhol1

    Oskhol1 Erevan Galanodel, 320-ish, Sorcerer/Warlock

    Messages:
    430
    Likes Received:
    431
    Trophy Points:
    85
    Minecraft:
    Then I'm afraid, I have to tell you, the Eye is easy

    But in all honesty it's not the most enjoyable fight to me, the most stressful thing that happened to me this week.
     
  14. CountBurn

    CountBurn Hackysack? HERO

    Messages:
    3,092
    Likes Received:
    1,800
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    So cybel and wybel can 1 shot you and there is no way to predict it, but eye is harder?
    I'm in trouble
    ________________________________
    No

    I was thinking of a clever "no" nona pun but alas I have failed, so appreciate the thought

    Also my godly nona with t6 powders got deleted I demand a refund
     
  15. HV_Metal

    HV_Metal Collapse will reign VIP

    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    597
    Trophy Points:
    85
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    EO with Spider build when?
     
  16. Bast

    Bast The Starseer HERO

    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    524
    Trophy Points:
    49
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    I can supply some keys for free if you want some
     
  17. CountBurn

    CountBurn Hackysack? HERO

    Messages:
    3,092
    Likes Received:
    1,800
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    Eo solo is actually easier than in a group yy exposed bad gamer

    But the real reason this boss is hard is the lag, even with every setting turned down I am unable to beat the boss because 1 lag spike means 1 death, I dont have trouble killing wretches or dealing damage it's just that if you lag you die
     
  18. brokenmotor

    brokenmotor Well-Known Adventurer HERO

    Messages:
    543
    Likes Received:
    771
    Trophy Points:
    91
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    bruh my man out here writing a novel on how the eye is easy
    wierd flex but respect bro
     
    Glazer and YYGAYMER like this.