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What Is The Point Of The Nether?

Discussion in 'Wynncraft' started by Dr Zed, Nov 21, 2019.

?

Does the Nether Have a Point?

  1. Yes

    16 vote(s)
    27.6%
  2. No

    39 vote(s)
    67.2%
  3. Sorta..

    3 vote(s)
    5.2%
  1. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Likes girls of large sizes. HERO

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    Personally think that a normal questing area would be cool, but it should have PvP on, just to show how chaotic it is.
    The difference in between items in Wynn and the nethier would allow you to balance specifically towards PvP.
     
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  2. Sg_Voltage

    Sg_Voltage I want to /kill myself HERO

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    But nobody is denying that it exists? There's clearly loads of lore, but it's constantly tripping over itself. When you look at any one piece of lore, especially the new stuff, it's generally good (Qira lore is awesome imo) but there are way too many random disconnected parts of the lore for the lore as a whole to be good. I think the devs thought it would be important for each level area to have at least one or two points of interest beyond the city (which makes things fun, not complaining about that) but it leads to a lot of dumb stuff.

    The problem is most stuff isn't developed in favor of having more stuff. Take SST's lore and Wynnexcavation A's lore for instance. They're almost the same. One has a wizard unsealing a tomb and the other has a super evil mining company (Spoilers?) unsealing a tomb and woah, shockers! evil corruption exists in both tombs and that's it. Sure, the evil guy in SST has some lore of his own, but the evil guy in Wynn A has literally no reason to exist beyond the quest. So many other quests share the same problem where there's a ton of characters or a boss at the end with no significance at all. Why do you fight death at the top of TOA? Why does Santa have an island when he has a workshop in the north pole? Why are the craftmas quests still in the game? These are all really important lore questions that just don't really have an answer beyond "It's cool" and that isn't a sign of good writing in my opinion.

    Edit: I just realized what the biggest problem is with Wynns lore; there isn't really a well developed central idea. Sure, corruption exists, but it isn't developed consistently at all. After playing all the quests, I should know exactly what the corruption is and how it works, I should know a lot about the ruler of the nether who goes by like 18 different names based on who you ask in game and I should know how the central idea connects to everything.

    In something like LOTR, the central idea is around the 19 rings of power. Almost every race, empire and conflict is clearly connected to them in some way and every story told in that universe is related to the rings. Wynns problem is we don't have the 19 rings, instead we have like 8 dungeons, 9 cities, a whole shit ton of mages, a fountain of youth? like 18 different gems, 4 crystals, a heavenly realm, a light realm, deaths realm, at least two other realms from the dungeon quests, a hell realm, a nether realm, two Santas? and probably more. That's too much stuff. Now if the Santas were cut, there's an argument to be made for the lore being okay, but until then the lore is just going to stay the spaghetti tangle that it is.

    ________________________________
    The issue with balance is that Wynn has a really massive power scale. In a game like Destiny, the difference between 750 and 950 is basically nothing. The gear you have makes you a little better, sure, but a 750 can still easily kill a 950 in PVP. In Wynn, if you're level 100 and fight a level 30 or even a level 40 you can win just by punching them. To get PVP to be fair, it would need to be in teams with pre-set builds for each class and no level requirement. Of course, I don't think a lot of people want to play that, but I agree that the popularity of any new features is entirely based on the rewards. As long as the reward is some sort of useful consumable item I would totally play wynn team deathmatch.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  3. Dr Zed

    Dr Zed Famous Adventurer HERO

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    It’s not so much that the Nether should have been expanded upon and more so why they choose to replace the Nether with Dern and leave the Nether unexplained. I don't really mind if they never touch the Nether again; Wynncraft could be considered finished content-wise at this point since there is now a final boss in the game and a final endgame quest (A Hunter's Calling). Sure, Wynncraft still isn't perfect, and there are other mysteries such as Fruma, the beast behind the eye, and all of the Gavel dungeons. But there's already enough content to level up from 1 to 103 and there's no more level gaps anymore. So they're going to have to start cutting or revamping mid to higher level content like that did for low level quests to avoid having too many quests within a level range, which might be counter intuitive for what Wynncraft really needs. One could argue that Wynncraft should focus more on guilds or features that keep people who have already beaten the game around.

    So I don't have a good answer for what the next step of Wynncraft should be.
     
  4. Dr Zed

    Dr Zed Famous Adventurer HERO

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    I think the main problem with Wynncraft is not that it doesn't focus on it's main conflict most of the time and more so that doesn't ever resolve it.

    Wynncraft's story is basically a bunch of episodic stories. And it'll probably still that way since each quest is handled by a different person on the CT. Hence why a lot of the quests are disconnected from each other and have conflicting lore or lore that goes nowhere.

    And there's nothing wrong with that per se; a lot of shows do it such as Samurai Jack. The main plot is that Samurai Jack has to stop Aku by travelling back in time (who is basically the ultimate evil monster of the universe), but a lot of episodes are only tangentially related to Aku and feature widely different characters, races, creatures, and settings with little to no explanation for why or how they got there just like Wynncraft does with little continuity (such as the talking archaeologist dogs, a giant mecha robot underwater, dragons, a Scotsman with sword enscribed with runes, you name it).

    However, unlike Wynncraft, Samurai Jack does accomplish his goal and saves everyone. Whereas with the player, he/she forgets that the Nether and the Portal exist and never returns to it. Hence why the story of Wynncraft doesn't feel satisfactory since it drops its main conflict more than mid-way through the game. Heck, even Samurai Jack had payoff from most of its random side stories in the finale.
     
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  5. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Likes girls of large sizes. HERO

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    But, again, it does..
    First off, I do know what the nether is, its what happens when light and dark reject one and another.
    Second off, there is no evil ruler of the nether, period.
    Third off, it again, does have a central idea, I'm not sure how many times I have to say this, but the lore has been building up to the eye for a very long time.

    ___
    As for the rest of what you said, I never disagreed. I'm not sure why you think I am. I said, twice, that weather or not they have an over arching evil, weather or not the story as a central idea, it doesn't mean its written well.

    Your comment, seems, feels, and looks like a pointless rant of a guy who assumes that if I'm saying something 'exist' then I think its good.

    ---
    Also people are denying it exist, read like the first 5 comments and your own.
    Most people think its badly written, and I can accept that. But no one was initially saying it was, they all proclaimed that it didn't have an over arching evil, or so on.
    ________________________________
    We probably will.
    Noting that the 'thing' in dern is cussing most issues, including the curroption and decay, its argueable that after we kill him, it all ends.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  6. Dr Zed

    Dr Zed Famous Adventurer HERO

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    But corruption being a mix or battle between Light and Darkness is a meaningless word salad. If I open my curtains in my room to let light in, am I creating corruption? They never properly define Light and Darkness; sometimes they're elements, sometimes they're entire dimensions, other times they're beings like Orphion of the Realm of Light. Plus there's no real practical difference between the corruption or the darkness or the Decay; all mutate and turn things evil in unspecific ways, except one turns the landscape red, one turns it purple and black, and another just kills trees.

    The second one is wrong; we know from Garoth (Studying the Corrupt) and Theorick (Fate of the Fallen) that there is a being of immense power in the Nether. To quote the wiki page of Studying the Corrupt, "Garoth's Note: Briefly.. I saw beyond. I do not have the words to describe... Cold yet searing. Land plagued by war and disease, and then I saw... it." Not to mention that Bak'al entered the Portal as well (from Fate of the Fallen) and he serves the beast behind the Eye. Though the contradiction is that the beast behind the Eye resides in Dern, not the Nether. The beast (or Dark Master) goes so far as to rip one of its eyes out than to leave Dern to spy on the Silent Expanse. Given that the Nether and Dern are treated as two different dimensions, there is no way the Dark Master could be in both places.

    And for your third point, it's kinda mute because after Temple of Legends, the Portal and the Nether are never mentioned again and the player does nothing about it. While the Eye has been teased before, there was little to no information about it compared to the Nether Portal. Bob's sealed letters could've been referring to the Eye or the beast behind the Eye or something else entirely (they may not even by canon anymore). Like sure, you could say there's some vague central theme like greed is bad or perseverance always wins or something, but that doesn't resolve the story of the game.

    That's probably what they're going for. Which is fine, again I don't care which ever way they do, I just don't get why they went this way when the Nether was already setup as the source of ultimate evil since the beginning.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  7. ParkourTNT

    ParkourTNT Wynncraft will have houses one day HERO

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    Btw, how did the nether become a thing? If I remember correctly it was because the light realm and the dark realm (Dern realm) got into contact and it created the corruption which is the nether.
     
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  8. Sg_Voltage

    Sg_Voltage I want to /kill myself HERO

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    Okay, I've done every quest at least twice and not once have I heard about a giant floating evil eye. I could be missing something so please, please tell me where the eye is talked about anywhere in the pre 1.19 lore, because I had literally no idea of its existence.
    ________________________________
    Wait what? I thought Dern was a fully corrupted Provence, not a realm... And if the dark realm isn't Dern or the nether, what is it?
    ________________________________
    Actually, yeah you're completely right, but I think my point still kinda stands, just for a different reason. The core conflict is developed, but maybe it's actually over-developed, not under-developed like I assumed. There's too much surface stuff and not enough depth to make for good lore.
    ________________________________
    I really want gavel dungeons and Fruma, but then again, dungeons and the large open world are my favorite part of Wynn so of course I would want more of those things. That being said, even though I don't personally care, I think the concept of guild wars and guild territory could use some refreshing to make things a little more tactical and strategic.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  9. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Likes girls of large sizes. HERO

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    For, like the 6th time, I never said it was well written, just that it exist. Your arguement here is '"well yeah it exist but its bad." And what I said was "yeah it exist." Yours doesn't combat mine, it doesn't even disagree with mine. I'm not sure what the point in saying this even was.

    I'm not sure what lies beyond that nether portal. However "it" is probably some kind of demon, of which we have a few in the lore. It itself isn't responsable for the curroption, its just kinda there.

    -----

    I'm kinda going to pick apart your next point.

    I'm not exactly sure what this has to do with the game having a central idea.
    The nether, as I've said many times, is caused by dern. The nether will probably be sorted out when we take care of dern.
    Still though, this has nothing to do with weather or not it has a central idea.


    We have a lot of info on the eye. Its very hidden, but that's on purposes. For those of you who don't know, Wynncraft, or at the very least, the Eye (Beast) is very much inspired by H.p. Lovecraft. Much like his works, there's an over arcing eldritch god, whos very hidden. Most anyone who knows of it is driven insane, dies, or kills themselves. Now I could go on for a long time on how the Eye is inspired by Lovecraft, however what you need to know in short is that the lore, and the role it plays is hidden on purpose.

    It is talking about the Eye (or rather the thing who put the eye there) and yes, they are still cannon. Both confirmed by salted like half a year ago.

    So wynncraft does have a ton of mortality in it, but it doesn't have a theme and message. Generally speaking its about the battle of good vs evil inside ones self actually. This is pretty obvious in some ways, like the light realm is super generic good, and dern is the worst thing they could think of, which is a Lovecraftin cosmic god. However, its also reflected in each province, each one having some form of evil or another revolving around curroption. In Wynn its a litteral curroption, in gavel its a curroption of greed, in corkus its a curroption of manufacturing, in fruma its a curroption of government. Even the light realm faces curroption.

    Even more so all of this is reflected in how individuals deal with these issues mentally. In Wynn, you quite litteraly have your soul taken over, therick for example, he gets taken over by the curroption, and you litteraly see him battle against good and evil inside themselves. Now most bosses in the province of wynn are like that, for the most part anyways. Gavel, and corkus both do something similar, I be it, I don't think they do it as well as Wynn.

    All of this is again, not to say that what wynncraft writes is good, but it undoubtedly has the elements you guys seem to think it lacks. The writing itself is fundamentally basic, rarely deep, simply poorly constructed and so on, that is not to say however that it doesn't have the central ideas that writing should have.
     
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  10. Dr Zed

    Dr Zed Famous Adventurer HERO

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    Maybe? It’s never really explained; we don’t have an explanation for how Light or Dark became to be either. I think we just have to assume they’re eternal or something...
    ________________________________
    Yeah, that's what I mean; I do like quests and especially discoveries, but I know that for some veterans who have already beaten the game 10 times over they'd prefer more competitive features such as guilds and PvP. You can only do a quest or discovery once before you defeat the mystery behind it; whereas you can do endless events such as tournaments and wars for PvP and guilds respectively. And as Wynncraft gets older, you're going to have more and more veterans in the latter who are looking for something to do in the endgame beyond just quests or dungeons. So maybe at this point after 5 years of Wynncraft's development, it'd be better to start focusing on those sort of things to keep its player around.

    Idk.
     
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  11. Sg_Voltage

    Sg_Voltage I want to /kill myself HERO

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    I think what everyone is complaining about is the fact that Wynn lore is like a 25 piece puzzle where there are 1000 pieces that just don't fit together. Sure there are central ideas, but there are so many central ideas to the point where none of them are all that central anymore. It's just the same stuff with slightly different names over and over again.

    Picture this; three realms, light, dark and the mortal realm (where we the main map is, idk what it would be called). Dark realm and light realm are fighting over the mortal realm and the result is corruption (mixing of the two). Dern in this case would be a territory in the mortal realm completely overtaken by darkness and most of Gavel is overtaken by the light realm. The portals to the dark realm take the form of nether portals and the portals to the light realm are whatever the portal to the current light realm is. Stuff like Deaths realm, Garoths realm, the corrupt dungeons and the nether would just be layers of the dark realm, and stuff like the heavenly realm and the top of the tower of ascension would just be a place in the light realm. There would be a ruler of the dark realm, the beast beyond the eye I guess, and there would be some ruler of the light realm; maybe a god or a group of gods or maybe something a little more creative like a beast beyond the other eye idk (hell, you could have a crazy meta twist where the two eyes are those of the player and each realm reflects the duality of man). With a base like that, you can fit everything into it; Why is bobs reincarnation in the heavenly realm? Maybe a spirit from the light realm found him to be a suitable host for a being of light. What are the corrupted dungeons? Maybe the Forgery shows the player the future of Wynn where corruption takes over the entire provence/world. The point is, every idea should be building on this really central and clear idea.

    My problem with Wynn lore is that it is built from the top down rather than from the bottom up. It is painfully clear that the lore wasn't built around the corruption, rather the idea of corruption was built to fit the stories they wanted to make. The role of corruption has always been to fit into any story the devs want to tell, so even though you said you know what the corruption is, your idea of what it is could be drastically changed by a single quest, which is really dumb. Even though there's a lot of lore about the corruption, it's all really, really vague so they can keep using it for any quest in Wynn that needs some sort of evil in it. If you want proof of this, look at the wiki page for corruption. The central idea of Wynncraft should really have more than a few short paragraphs explaining what it is.
    ________________________________
    Honestly, if it were up to me I think I would make 1.20 include all of Dern and have it be the last major update. I've been saying this for at least a few years now, but I would rather the team focus on more frequent seasonal content with special drops/events/challanges and develop the existing world rather than have yearly nuclear releases where a ton of stuff gets changed and added all at once.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  12. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Likes girls of large sizes. HERO

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    That's because its not often explored in quest, and it is its very vague.
    The lore of the eye is mostly explored with very secret areas, like the site D basement, though very secret items like the sealed letters, and if it is in a quest, its never directly stated, for example memory paranoia speaks of it very vaguely.
     
  13. Dr Zed

    Dr Zed Famous Adventurer HERO

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    Oh, did he mention that they'll reincorporate them into the world? Like in a quest or discovery or something? I haven't done the Nessak discoveries on the Hero Beta so maybe they might've put them there (or at the least information contained by them)?

    I understand that there is a good vs. evil element and that this is represented in different ways across each province. I'm not trying to talk about whether the game has a central idea or not, so I apologize if I was getting off track and misinterpreting what you were saying.

    What I'm trying to ask is why are they're supposedly 2 different supreme evils in the world when having one of them would do?

    Well that's what I mean; why is "it" there if it's not the beast behind the Eye? What's the whole point of having 2 Satans in a Good vs. Evil story? Whatever "it" is, it corrupted Bak'al, Theorick, and Garoth and its stated explicitly multiple times over the story that the Nether Portal is causing the corruption. So it definitely has the ability to corrupt or at least it's extremely associated with corruption.

    They've never said in-game that the Nether was created or caused by Dern, and I've never heard Grian say it either. Again, I don't see how Light + Darkness = Corruption explains it either because it doesn't mean anything as I said before. It just creates 2 dimensions that serve the same purpose of being the source of ultimate evil. Even IF the beast of the Eye created the Nether for some reason and put some other powerful demon there, what is the point of that? I don't see how thematically or storywise having 2 Satans and 2 Hells serves any purpose in a simple story about Good vs. Evil.

    Imagine if Lord of the Rings dropped Sauron midway through the story and had Frodo and Co. defeat Melkor instead at the very end. Yes, Melkor caused Sauron, but no, that doesn't make any sense why the story would end like that.
     
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  14. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Likes girls of large sizes. HERO

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    Hey man, I never said it was good, in fact I actively said it was bad over and over again. Just act like it exist please, kinda like you just acted like it exist.

    If we are aware of what its attempting to do, then we can talk about how to fix it, however if we act as it has nothing, then all you guys will end up doing is creating something from scratch in your own image.
    ________________________________
    It does a couple of times, specifically in the light realm quest line and in memory paranoria.

    I agree with this to an extent. Again, I'm not trying to defend the lore, but rather correct you guys on what it does do.

    I do think the nether is repetitive, and poorly written. I however disagree with your lord of the rings thing, because its not unreasonable.

    The issue with taking out the curroption is that you can't. Maybe you can close the portal, but its going to reopen due to the clashing of light and dark. Due to how this works, taking out the dark WILL take out the curroption, so it does fundamentally make sense to focus on it.

    Even more so because it actually has a root in something that can die, were as the nether is a kind of force of nature.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  15. Sg_Voltage

    Sg_Voltage I want to /kill myself HERO

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    I strong believe know exactly what my point is, yet you keep arguing something completely different. I have not once said that the lore doesn't exist, in fact, my first post and all subsequent posts have been about how it makes no sense. I'm really confused about why you are telling me to act like it exists when the whole time I've been complaining about how bad it is. I wouldn't complain about something I thought didn't exist in the first place.

    I'm glad we're on the same page about of how confusing and vague the Wynn lore is and I get the feeling we're on the same page about the problem with creating lore in our own image, so I guess there isn't really any point in continuing this back and forth.
     
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  16. Yuno F Gasai

    Yuno F Gasai Forum God, FW, former leader of Imp and Valk

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    Iirc it's canon that when the light and dark realms touched it created the nether which spread madness through the portal (which is why players go mad in the nether and attack each other).
     
  17. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Likes girls of large sizes. HERO

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    This is what I was correcting, you seemed to think the province

    And it almost feels like your trying to ignore that you said this.
    Which, again it does, I've been trying to explain the that for the last half hour.

    Most of your actually arguments are fine, and I haven't been trying to pick them apart, I was simply trying to take the bits of misunderstanding you have a fix them.
     
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  18. Sg_Voltage

    Sg_Voltage I want to /kill myself HERO

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    You literally quoted the first thing I said, where to be crystal clear, I said that the lore sucks and I'm sad about it. I can not for the life of me figure out how you're twisted that into believing that I don't think lore exists. I literally have no idea how to communicate to you that the existing lore is bad if you can't understand what "Honestly, Wynns lore is actually terrible and that sucks" means.

    In the next quote I'm addressing a bunch of stuff in Wynn to clarify the first point where I said there were a ton of evil beings that weren't remotely connected. I don't know where you got the idea that I don't think they each have lore, but the context of the first post made it clear that wasn't the point.

    In the third quote I think you missed the part where I said well developed and consistently developed. I'm clearly not claiming there isn't any lore or else I wouldn't have said that either of those things. Just to be clear, I didn't say that it wasn't developed, I say it wasn't developed well or consistently.
     
  19. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Likes girls of large sizes. HERO

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    I wasn't trying to claim you thought there was no lore, I was specifically argueing against the idea that theres no real centeral villan, threat, or idea.


    Your kind of ignoring a word that changes what your saying alot.


    Thats what I'm arguing against.
    Wynncraft DOES have a central idea, that's what you are acting like doesn't exist.
    Note that I haven't said you didn't think there was lore.

    I mean, read it yourself, I state over and over again what I'm attempting to say.

    Any time I mention something not existing, I'm specifically refering back to the idea that wynn doesn't have a centeral idea.
    It DOES have a single root for all of its issues, it DOES have a theme, AND IT DOES have a centeral idea.
     
  20. ParkourTNT

    ParkourTNT Wynncraft will have houses one day HERO

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    Dern is a realm but we also can call it a province because of the size and importance it will be.
    Here’s an official answer from salted to not confuse anyone:
    “It is indeed the road to Dern, but its actual name is Silent Expanse. You wouldn't call the Nesaak thundra the "road to troms" even if it is.
    As for Dern, it is a realm but often called a province because of its size and importance.