Weekly Community Discussion (4/10/2019) - Set Item Changes

Others seem to have already gone to some lengths... I'll point out some other things:
- +100 raw and -35% is a net benefit, generally speaking, on Very Fast weapons, and Fast weapons outside of Bows (at-level). But I understand if it's still too strong, looking more carefully +30 raw would probably make more sense (this would keep it pretty solidly weaker than Breezehands for tierstack items, Slow and below).
- As others have mentioned, Black Catalyst is two items.
- Using Black Catalyst means you can't use Downfalls. This is pretty big, considering the loss of 200 raw, 20%, and (imo the biggest one) 32% walkspeed. (Incidentally, it would be nice if there were raw melee rings beyond Downfall, to provide a tradeoff against Downfall's walkspeed).
- "Unlike what it is right now" which is... not much of any value.
- Regarding Jiandan Handwraps, HV kind of covered it. If I were to fill out the rest of the slots, I'd probably take one or two Uriel/Meep and maybe Wolf Crest or something.

Also
- Worth noting that Dia Static Necklace's effective downside is the high req, it works pretty well imo.

And YY has long since shown that beating Qira or beating LI is not a method of proving a build is good.

 

Ok, here is some of the sets simplified for easy reading:
*Stat: (total) item1,item2,item3... [bonus1,bonus3,bonus2...]
*Item Order: helm,chest,leg,boot,ring1,ring2,brace,neck,weap
*The old stats are not included

Spoiler: Adventurer Set

Level: (29) 26,29,28,27
Health: (175) 135,165,153,147 [0,15,40,175]

AllSP: (4) 1,1,1,1 [0,0,0,0]
ManaR: (2) 0,0,0,0 [0,0,0,2]
Spell%: (25%) 0,0,0,0 [0,4,12,25]
Melee%: (25%) 0,0,0,0 [0,4,12,25]
XP: (50%) 0,0,0,0 [0,10,20,50]
Loot: (30%) 0,0,0,0 [0,5,10,30]
WalkS: (15%) 0,0,0,0 [0,2,5,15]

Spoiler: Ascension Set

Level: (75) 75,75,75,75
Health: (7000) 1750,1750,1750,1750 [0,0,0,0]

ManaR: (3) 0,0,0,0 [0,0,0,3]
ManaS: (3) 0,0,0,0 [0,0,0,3]
Spell%: (30%) [0,0,0,30]
Melee%: (30%) [0,0,0,30]
SpellR: (325) [0,0,0,325]
MeleeR: (255) [0,0,0,255]
XP: (40%) 10,10,0,20 [0,0,0,0]
Loot: (40%) 10,10,20,0 [0,0,0,0]
WalkS: (20%) 0,0,0,0 [0,0,0,20]

Spoiler: Black Catalyst Set

Level: (83) 83,83
Health: (25) -150,-150 [0,325]

Mana Regen: (1) 0,0 [0,1]
Spell%: (10%) 0,0 [0,10]
SpellR: (90) 0,0 [0,90]
XP: (20%) -5,-5 (-5, 30)
Exploding: (10%) 0,0 [0,10]
SPRegen: (0) -5,-5 [0,10]

Spoiler: Cosmic Set

Level: (80) 80,80,80,80
Health: (8000) 1800,2200,2100,1900 [0,0,0,0]

ManaR: (1) 1,0,0,0 [0,0,0,0]
Regen%: (8%/33%) 0,25,0,0 [0,0,0,0]
Spell%: (3%/13%) 0,0,10,0 [0,0,0,0]
SpellR: (30/130)0,0,0,100 [0,0,0,0]
EleDef: (30%) 0,0,0,0 [0,10,20,30]
XP: (74%/150%) 19,19,19,19 [0,15,35,50]
Loot: (56%/75%) 0,19,0,0 [0,15,35,50]
WalkS: (3%/14%) 0,0,0,11 [0,0,0,0]
SPRegen: (56%/75%) 0,0,19,0 [0,115,35,50]
Refl: (35%/50%) 15,0,0,0 [0,5,15,30]

Spoiler: Nii Set

Level: (78) 70,74,78
TDefR: (-175) -50,-75,-50
WDefR: (150) 50,100,0
FDefR: (150) 50,0,100
IntR: (65) 50,65,0
DefR: (65) 50,0,65
Health: (7050) 1650,1625,2275 [0,0,1500]

Intel: (25) 0,10,0 [0,3,15]
Def: (25) 0,0,10[0,3,15]
ManaR: (5) 1,0,0 [0,0,4]
RegenR: (270) 0,0,0 [0,60,270]
Regen%: (30%) 30,0,0 [0,0,0]
WDam%: (20%) 0,20,0 [0,0,0]
FDam%: (20%) 0,0,20 [0,0,0]
WDef%: (85%) 15,10,0 [0,0,60]
FDef%: (85%) 15,0,10 [0,0,60]

Spoiler: Uth Set

Level: (90) 82,86,90
WDefR: (-210) -60,-70,-80
FDefR: (225) 0,150,75
ADefR: (225) 150,0,75
IntR: (85) 75,0,85
DefR: (85) 0,75,85
Health: (8125) 2375,2350,3400 [0,0,0]

Agil: (25) 10,0,0 [0,3,15]
Def: (25) 0,10,0 [0,3,15]
LifeS: (375) 0,0,0 [0,125,375]
FDam%: (15%) 0,15,0 [0,0,75]
ADam%: (15%) 15,0,0 [0,0,75]
FDef%: (100%) 0,25,0 [0,0,75]
ADef%: (100%) 0,25,0 [0,0,75]
WalkS: (50%) 20,0,30 [0,0,0]
Thor: (90%) 0,0,20 [0,0,70]
Refl: (90%) 0,0,20 [0,0,70]

Spoiler: Snail Set

Level: (97) 93,97,95,94
EDefR: (280) 45,75,65,55
FDefR: (325) 60,100,90,75
StrR: (65) 50,65,60,55
DefR: (90) 60,90,80,70
Health: (19500) 3125,3950,3575,3350 [0,1100,2675,5500]

Str: (21) 0,0,0,0 [0,7,14,21]
Def: (6/27) 7,0,7,7 [0,0,0,0]
Agil: (-28/-22) 0,-10,0,0 [0,-5,-10,-15]
RegenR: (616/796) 170,0,0,0 [0,125,275,575]
Regen%: (18%/78%) 0,20,20,20 [0,0,0,0]
EDef%: (6%/25%) 10,9,0,0 [0,0,0,0]
FDef%: (6%/25%) 0,9,0,10 [0,0,0,0]
Thor: (50%/80%) 0,15,15,0 [0,10,20,40]
WalkS: (-42%/-30%) -7,0,-7,-7 [0,-5,-10,-15]
Pois: (5500) 0,0,0,0 [0,880,2650,5500]

 

I genuinely hope that no one expects these set revamps to make these sets better or more popular, the only viable build you can make with the new thanos set is with a super fast weapon (or very fast if you want to make the most out of it) that also happens to be melee based for whatever reason. I know I probably have a higher standard for builds than the people that think a super slow melee weapon with no tier stack could be considered remotely viable, but if you want to make a set more popular you need to make it good. The only item out of the thanos set that was ever used was the thanos plate was because it was useful, the set itself was useless and this won't change it. If people didn't use the full thanos set enough and only used on part of it, again, that means the set is poorly designed. The new morph set is actually probably worse than the old one I think because of the lack of sp freedom, you can't get your intel anywhere near the point where it would be considered viable for a spell spam weapon/build and it barely works with a hybrid weapon. And if you use the new morph set in a melee build... I'm just at a loss of words lol

________________________________

The way I see it, thanos plate was ruined to make a virtually unusable armor set.

________________________________

Why is attack speed tier considered "one of the strongest IDs in the game" melee is easily the worst play style in the game behind hybrid and spell, just because you have higher survivability and don't need to rely on mana doesn't make it good, I have no idea what the obsession is with considering attack speed tier to be OP. Most melee builds are barely considered viable compared to hybrid and spell builds at super fast and I'm talking about apoc and alkatraz, if you've ever seen a very fast diaminar build or ignition build you'll see why attack speed tier is needed in more items and why builds that can't reach super fast attack speed other than mythics are utter trash even for melee builds.

 

Honestly, having played a tanky endgame melee Assassin build, I'm tempted to agree. Outside of Mage's Heal, melee is kind of mediocre.

Attack speed tier being considered one of the strongest IDs in the game is fair though, compare 1 tier attack speed to even 1 mana regen and it's pretty clear which is the bigger damage multiplier.

Random thought: Thanos Set isn't particularly tanky in theory, however the lack of good raw melee items means if you're not running Thanos Set in the low 80s for fast raw-based melee, you're probably wearing armor averaging 10 levels under, so you'll have unusually low health - so in practice, it does turn out to be pretty tanky.

 

It's usable, and that's what they're trying to do to it. Of course it's a joke build in comparison to viable endgame builds, but as a player who uses the set to exclusively level up classes I'm quite sure that the new set will still function well for its intended purpose. No more beating Legendary Island on 7-piece Morph I suppose but that's a compromise I'm okay with making. But if you want to criticise the item team for this decision in the first place, then by all means have at them.

 

Gonna disagree with you here.

While the goal of removing partial morph at endgame has certainly been accomplished, one could argue that Full Morph was also made weaker for a few reasons:

1. Armor SP was straight up removed and the reqs were made higher. This makes it so the final reqs are all 75/75/75/75/75 regardless of your choice. A lot of the power of Old Morph came from being able to specifically target Intelligence and Agility, so this hurts a lot. That said, I don't think that this by itself is an unreasonable design change because it makes sense in the context of making Morph into more of a Hyper-Generalist Set. The problem is that the only piece that really got compensated for this loss of sp was really Morph Stardust and maybe Morph-Iron.

2. The 6 mana regen it had was turned into 4 mana regen and 4 mana steal. This is a design direction that doesn't make sense at all for a generalist set when you consider that mana steal's relative value for a Spell Build varies quite a bit by attack speed. It would make much more sense to have all mana regen.

 

I don't think ppl can afford to buy these things at level either.. they're just gonna lv up anyways and skip right by them

 

well I meant more for warrior, Assassin has good spells, warrior needs to use melee just because of how awful the spells are. And mage honestly isn't much better, your dps with spell mage is just your meteor damage as you can cast one per second, although if it was spammable it'd be a better class than archer, but I can cast 4 spells per second (there was a myth about a spell cap, that was debunked by my friend Goden and I) with no Wynntils buttons or hotkeys or anything like that so Assassin and Archer are MUCH better options for spell, archer melee sucks outside of stinger and Assassin is just a well rounded class, not as good as archer, but it can make a killer spell or hybrid build, and kind of a killer melee build for a melee build with Flameshot, which woooww needs tier stack with items like the thanos plate which is getting nerfed because "tier stack is OP and set items are used too much out of their sets" Sets are kinda poorly designed in my opinion because Morph and Thanos are only viable outside of their sets with Morph Aquarius and Thanos plate, but if the item team makes it so they HAVE to be used in a set they're useless items, if someone wants to be able to use items in a set they should be able to, if they don't they shouldn't be forced into it, all this set item update is doing is ruining perfectly good items just like the awful ele revamp update that was going to destroy fire tier stack even though it's OBJECTIVELY worse than spell and hybrid builds. The ONLY amazing fire tier stack weapon in the game is apoc and it's a mythic so it SHOULD be considered balanced, Cata was nerfed to the point where its not even worth the damage to have no sp freedom AND required to build around the -HP. Divzer on the other hand has build freedom, it's way better than cata and it just loses agility.

________________________________

I'm so sick of people having skewed views on builds, not everything is OP or broken just because it's good. My god. Also ruining set items because they're not used exactly as you want them to be used is just a sorry excuse to make an item bad.

 

please calm down

(at least speak in coherent sentences)

 

I get frustrated when arguing with people that make unnecessary changes for the worse.

 

Are you in the right thread?

 

I think you should be in "buff hive bow" meme thread

 

Oof sorry XD

 

Alright, for now let's pack up on the tier discussions; we've gotten a good ways off topic from what the thread is supposed to be about(though we can definitely pick this up at another point, both are good discussions to have it's just right now the thread is about one and not the other.)

So, the main thing I'm getting is that full four-piece set items are considered a generally bad idea because it's just a "free build" so to speak, and some of the set item changes aren't that great of a buff. Is that about the gist of it, or am I misunderstanding?

 

IMO, I don't necessarily think four-piece armor sets are inherently a bad thing, but I do think two/three piece sets are more interesting, conceptually speaking.

 

I've yet to give my thoughts on the set changes themselves, and i probably won't until tomorrow to see how the discussion evolves and wrap up everything in one semi-comprehensive post, But i just wanted to point out this post from Selvut, because i feel its really important.

I personally feel the main reason the sets are so underused is because of their rarity, by the time you've grinded enough of the mobs to feasibly have a full set of that gear, you're already many levels ahead of where that set would have been useful to you. I think ideally EVERY set should be as common as the adventurer's set, if not slightly moreso to alleviate them only coming from a single type of mob.

I can also agree to the notion that full sets are more "boring" and more partial sets would be really cool (looking at you dark vexations), but that doesn't necessarily mean having full sets in the game is a bad thing, in the case of morph it serves as the baseline for which to compare builds with, but for other sets they fill very niche parts of the overall meta and they're an important part of it

 

I think you are taking away the wrong lesson here, personally.

The lesson here should be that depending on the number of pieces in a set, the set interacts with the base sandbox of the game in different ways, so the design of sets should reflect those differences. Let me elaborate:

• 2 piece sets like the Bovine Set are basically comprised of 2 items that happen to have the ability to directly synergize with each other. This means that they may not be as strong as their competitors normally when used on their own. However, if a person's build happens to be using the other item in the set, these items can become much more potent, allowing for interesting dynamics when creating a build. Additionally, a set like Black Catalyst can be used to give an item type access to a power that it normally couldn't be able to use by binding it to the set bonus (1 tier attack speed on most accessories for example).
• 4-9 piece sets serve a completely different purpose. As 4-9 piece sets effectively determine the direction of a build, they do not fulfill the same role of helping each other compete for slots in a build. Instead, they allow the designer to adequately reward a playstyle that would normally not be considered viable for a player working under the basic item system. The best example of this (so far in the game itself) is easily Visceral Set (which is why it's my 2nd favorite set; you probably know my favorite set). Visceral Set's playstyle is that of extremely low health with extremely high health regeneration. Normally, players try to balance health and health regen in a standard regeneration build; however, the set bonus of Visceral Set allows it to force this playstyle on whoever is using these items and adequately reward said playstyle.
• 3 piece sets like Spider Set are interesting. They are still intended to mingle with the base sandbox; however, they are closer to a full build. I personally, do not like 3-piece sets because they are in an awkward area between 2-piece and 4-piece sets; however, others apparently do like them, so there's that.

So then you might ask why people like @Druser and @Chronozilla see 2/3 piece sets as more conceptually interesting. Allow me to explain.

Most set items in the base game are designed in a way that makes them very similar to regular items but just put into a set. This works well for 2-piece sets (some would argue 3-piece sets as well, but I disagree) because they are intended to be used with the base sandbox of the game and therefore benefit from having similar designs to items in the base sandbox of the game. However, this poses a severe problem for 4-9 piece sets because 4-9 piece sets are only interesting when their design is that of a playstyle that could not exist within the confines of the base sandbox like that of Visceral Set (and my favorite set).

As a result of this, I'd argue, most players are biased by what they see in the existing sandbox - the 2-piece sets that happen to perform well within the way individual set items are currently designed.

P.S.: Do not let GMs add sets purely for the sake of giving a quest or mob a reward unless they have a specific plan for making it actually interesting.

Also can you please not close threads once the week is over? It's kind of a pain if you can't get a full post in before the week is over.

 

Alright! It's Friday again so we're going to be locking this thread and moving onto a new topic. You'll still be able to view this thread, its content and its replies by following the link on our main thread here where we'll keep a list updated with every weekly discussion thread. We appreciate all of the responses and discussions this week and hope to see you guys on this week's thread here.

Cheers =)
/locked