Weekly Community Discussion (27/12/2019) - Shaman Mythics

Are you sure that the high damage is really a feature specific to hadal? Because this sounds more like a problem with concentration in general and not the weapon. Even though concentration should synergize with hadal's high costs, it still does enough for other weapons to be able to keep up in damage. Even right now on the life servers, an end game legendary relik like cryoseism with average rolls can reach up to 16k auras, compared to a hadal with average stats' 22k with fully stacked conc. Yes, this is more damage than cryo, only with the slight difference of cryo having 1 cost auras, while a very good hadal has a minimum of 3 aura cost (4 is more realistic though). The mana stat hardly matters, since almost every intelligence build has enough mana to constantly cast spells and keep your concentration stacked.

Now, what do you prefer: Extremely spammable 1 cost auras that each deal 16k damage, allowing you to basically never stop casting. Or auras that deal more damage than usual (and even that only if your hadal is good, since it's as you said, very roll-dependent) but each costing you 4 mana, and since you usually cancel aura with uproot, uproot's cost will also be higher than usual with hadal.

Cryo's spell cycle (aura aura aura uproot) costs 9 mana, while a above average rolls hadal's with cycle (aura aura uproot) costs 13 mana. So hadal's cycle is more expensive, has an aura less, but the auras each do a little bit more damage. Cryo's low intelligence requirement also makes it possible to use things like anima-infused cuirass and dragon's eye bracelet, lowering your aura cost even more, while using those items with hadal is very difficult without cutting too much damage.

As you can see, it is kind of hard to justify using hadal over cryoseism on the live servers already, so as I see it, there is absolutely no reason to ever use hadal over cryo once these changes go through. Maybe neither concentration nor hadal are the problems, but cryoseism is. I haven't tested any other endgame reliks, but nerfing hadal while leaving cryo untouched is very questionable. Maybe you could repeat your testing, but this time using cryoseism and tell me what you think.

 

Cryoseism is overrated. It's pretty good, but not as OP as people seem to think.

 

It's as OP as people seem to think it is

 

Yeah...it really is. I wouldn't say it's broken but it's almost certainly the best legendary relik

 

We are nerfing cryo’s damage output as well, so it shouldn’t be too much of a problem - we just have not posted that

 

Ooo some legendary rebalances. Hyyypeee
Pls don't nuke cryo tho...

 

I'm not sure if I can trust you with this
1. if 12k aura no totem for a mythic is strong enough to deserve a nerf, then what about nepta meteor being 16k, sitis multi being 14k and orange lily being 12k super spammable?
2. melee shaman easily reaching 16k dps without using any mythics nor totem (https://wynndata.tk/s/k3ye9p slapped this within 5 minutes)
3. aura is a slow-moving spell
4. aura spell multiplier is so low that it requires you being inside of totem to be barely viable (which makes melee shaman even more powerful i.e. 22k melee dps with the above the end build)

the future for spell shaman is very grim. all shaman's worth will be for melee if the nerfs continue to hit


IMO shaman spell should be balanced without counting in totem +35% damage buff just like melee. if balancing for melee also counts in +35% damage bonus, then all melee weapons need to be nerfed greatly.
i.e. the end earth dmg 420-444 -> 311-329, air dmg 394-400 -> 292-296, melee raw 520 -> 385
i.e. aftershock neutral 80-85 -> 59-63, earth dmg 1550-1850 -> 1148-1370
i.e. sunstar neutral 250-400 -> 185-296 , thunder dmg 500-700 -> 370-519 , melee raw 769 -> 570

now everything just looks ugly am I right?
tl:dr current spell shaman is shit and with even more nerfs, it will never become viable.

EDIT: and even better no fabled+ melee build: 17.5k melee dps without totem and you also have massive DEF + AGI skill points to be extremely defensive
now I dare you to tell me that melee is "balanced"

 

He’s quite literally in the item team

 

fixed
he doesn't have the item team banner so I was confused
my point still stands strongly that current spell shaman is not good

________________________________

https://wynndata.tk/s/95kpem gaia build
comparing to the end melee:
the end vs. gaia
0.265x vs. 0.497x damage received average
749 hp vs. 1133 hp per sec
23707 vs. 19778 dps

currently, no fabled+ melee shaman is as strong, if not, stronger than mythics for other classes
if this issue isn't addressed by putting down ALL melee shaman weapons base damage and melee raw id by 1.35x, all shaman will do is putting down a totem and start meleeing inside the totem radius for heals and damage boost. thus not promoting diversity in playstyle at all.

alternatively, boosting aura spell multiplier from 200% to 250% or 270%(1.35*200%) puts to offset the current extreme difference in power between melee and spell shaman.

 

none of this really matters since from what i was told you sort of have to suck the enemy's dick as shaman to hit all 3 rays, and tierstack (aftershock for example, and well in ur case the end) is pretty much ETA, no def and shaman's base def + getting close to an enemy = very big risk, and its not like ur able to get 130+ agi..

 

Shaman sacrifices damage and spam for amazing cc tools, so isn't it fine that it does less? That's why it feels weak against bosses that aren't affected.

Orang... Oh this is a shaman discussion :(
It'll get nerfed, right?

 

selvut already proved that wrong and that u can have moderate distance and still have 3 rays to hit, that's why I retracted my buff sunstar statement
and my 2nd the end build have 80+ DEF AGI and have 24k dps, your reasoning is invalid. my 2nd build can be found at the very bottom of my buff shaman spell post, if you are blind: https://wynndata.tk/s/1e9cbx

 

Regarding Cryoseism, the judgement of Cryo nerf would have to be made relative to similar items. Comparisons between spell shaman and melee shaman are a separate issue - if spell shaman is underpowered, the solution would be to buff spell shaman as a whole, not to avoid nerfing a single item within spell shaman.

 

Meteor has a 2, maybe 3 block radius and takes a whole second to land. Other than that there is nothing really special about it and it's not the most efficient spell neither. 14k Mulithit is so low for such a close range spell that barely covers anything it makes me cry. You should have included Vanish boost at least. Orange Lily perhaps needs a nerf if anything. Compared to Aura neither of these spells are anything special. Aura has an insane range and along with Uproot you can cover extremely huge areas. You can lock stronger units to your Totem and they can't do anything about it. And on top of that you said that aura deals 12k dmg without totem. So yea, with totem that 12k + some powder specials (like Concentration, which works very well with Cryoseism or Hadal, literally nuking their damage output) will result in some pretty high damage that covers the entire battlefield and in the end... Aura bounces back and deals the same damage on it's way.

The future of spell shaman? Only Hadal and Cryoseism got confirmed nerfs.

Melee nerfs sound good, Aftershock should be especially nuked.

shrug

 

Orange Lily really could use some change.

(spammable 1 mana bombs but no access to shield and +1 to storm? :P)

 

Cryo imo is the only legendary that is to strong. Its not as much the raw damage but rather the raw damage and the Mana and the -3rd spell cost that make it so good. It's really the only legendary relik that needs any kind of nerf in my opinion however hopefully along with this reliks like royal hydrogina and crimson, both of which are depressingly bad, get buffs as well as some such as inferna flamewreath and arbalest with have proven to just be subpar.

 

Everyone always ignores the +1 cost to Uproot, which is not insignificant.

 

I mean yeah that's fair but it's really not enough to be a truly harmful drawback with all it's other stats and crazy damage. plus if you build with any sort of earth/water or anima you can nullify that.

 

That's Cryoseism's damage. Not particularly crazy. Uproot cost cancels out about half of the Aura cost broadly speaking.

Judging Cryo based on the fact that spell costs on AIC and Grookwarts items are extremely powerful is probably not a good idea.

 

okay....hadal could hit 15k auras with no totem... 12k is kinda the target and with alot of mythic buffs and nerfs is now around what absolution, sunstar, fantasia, and hadal hit (buff Olympic pls). Cryo was able to be close to this without drawbacks that really impacted it enough to not be meta for spell. I personally would nerf the -spell costs on cryo instead of damage but a damage nerf seems fine as well I suppose. Weapons like nepta and sitis have more drawbacks than cryo (-health, -health regen, ect) and while are very strong aren't necessarily broken and in my opinion neither are the strongest legendary in their class.

Melee shaman has 3 beams that all must hit for that dps to actually be reached however I will agree it does seem very excessive.

Aura is a crowd control spell though and while in pvp it isnt amazing in pve it's very powerful all around as it can hit more targets at once than any other spell in the game.

I agree that aura has a low spell multiplier but 8-9k auras without being in totem isn't bad at all. multiply that by 1.35 and you got some nice damage. However spell shama does struggle with some of the weapons just being bad.

Cryo is very powerful for starters.
Conference call, loaded question, overdrive and procrastination are all very powerful as well.
The watched is weaker in damage but provides super good hp and heals. But the drawback is its rainbow.
And then there's Lower for a spammy play style if that's your thing as well.

Notice that three of these are thunder/thunder hybrid weapons which by nature should do alot of damage.
alot of weapons are somewhat lacking making shaman spell seem bad because alot of elemental builds are just bad. Crimson and royal hydrangea are utterly terrible so thats f/w and w/a gone.
Inferna is kinda bad conpaired to other options even with its -spell costs.
Salpinx is actually good imo but alot of people are turned off by that mana regen.
Arbalest doesn't have the most amazing of damage but still is somewhat viable...yet out classed by alot of other reliks.

Spell shaman just lacks options alot of classes have as the class is very new and needs some more balance changes to endgame reliks to make spell's future better. The nerfing of the most powerful spell relik doesn't mean spell shaman is gonna suck long term.

Again the three beams and crowd control playstyle however I will agree there are some melee builds I have seen that even when taking this into account are just to powerful.

That's not a particularly great way to show how good cryo is as that doesn't account for the 5-20% water damage and 9-39% spell damage correct?
also nice graph did you post it anywhere else :P