Weekly Community Discussion (11/10/2019) - Tiers And Mana

so what about archer then? does mana/hp steal just have to suck it for archer?

 

If/when Archer gets the ability to AoE with its melee like other classes, this should improve.

 

Question, how many things would break if mana regen was every 6 seconds instead of every 4 seconds?

 

Well I guess for one thing, those that have 129 int and 11/4s mr won't even feel a difference unless they cast the same spell over and over again. For others that optimize their build to reduce mr/int for more damage in relation to spell cycling, they will have to rebuild their builds again for another 2-4 or something. For archers, it's not a big deal, but for mages, it's quite a big deal due to the already low dps.

This might be the bigger problem than fixing mana regen.

 

The biggest impact is on very high mana builds - essentially it's pulling the skill ceiling downward a lot, since the amount of skill required to use 18 or 19 mana regen is now a lot lower. Broadly speaking though, most builds would just stabilize around 14-16 mana regen instead. Mana items become more popular while damage items generally fall in popularity - the main reason people choose damage items over mana items is not because they have theoretical better dps, but because it requires exceptional skill to use a very high mana build with the optimal dps. I described this in a bit more detail in an earlier post on dps numbers for different classes and playstyles.

 

I still think stealing being RNG based does the stat no favors. Mana regen is consistent. Mana steal requires slightly more effort for spell users since they have to melee, lowering their DPS. I agree with @Druser here

When I put together my freedom build, I used Capricorn because it had plenty of mana AND spell damage. Requirements with rainbow builds are more like suggestions anyways, so finding items ripe for abuse is rainbow's best use. I think mana and damage can be done right, but mana and damage and intelligence is the same as mana and damage and more damage and more damage. Intelligence IS a replacement for water% AND mana regen.
Perspective: 20 MR at 0 INT (+0%) spell swaps just the same as 10 MR at 68 INT (+50%)

Spoiler: Hint:

except you want the +50%

Once you've got INT, just find items with spell % and mana regen and suddenly the damage ceiling explodes. Most of the weapons are not the problem (mythics are a different discussion). The real problem is mana regen vs intelligence and where you find it in combination. Those 2 stats are the most useful IDs, period. Mana steal is inconsistent (before even mentioning archers), melee is boring and/or requires glassy builds to compete with spells (before even mentioning archers), and the skill ceiling for stealing vs mana is massive (before even mentioning archers). Being accurate, lucky, and having good timing are key elements of stealing builds (mostly). Despite requiring more skill/time/coordination/etc, they still don't compete with regen builds' DPS, let alone a well rounded spell spam build's AGI and/or DEF and/or ele defs. I want mana steal reworked and intelligence reworked. I don't think mana regen should be changed. Spell spamming is fine and a valid playstyle. If archers wanna fly around, mages wanna swing their snakes, and assins wanna smoke weed, then all that's fine. However, I don't think RNG should determine an ID's worth beyond the identifier. Intelligence is overcooked and Mana/Life Steal are worthless. Let players decide how to use the ID, not RNG.

Spoiler

don't say you can roll a lucky chain lightning and get all your health/mana back, that's RNG too.

 

Mana Regen vs Mana Steal for DPS
With high enough mana regen and intelligence (and doing spell cycles correctly), you can constantly spell spams without ever having to stop (I know this from my own personal experience using spellspam builds). However with a mana steal build, no matter how quickly you gain mana from hitting a large crowd of mobs at once, you still have to spend time attacking enemies to gain the mana and only then can you cast the spells. This alone makes mana steal slower in dps because it's already one step below the constant rampage potential that mana regen + ws offers. To make things worse, in order to gain mana at rates that are on par with mana regen, you'd either need to consistently melee hit a large group of tightly packed mobs that aren't dangerous enough to kill you in an instant, or make your mana steal stat really high which would require massive sacrifices in either int, spell dmg, agility or ws (all of which contribute to dps in their own ways). The point I'm making is that the combination of the limitations of the current mana steal gameplay mechanics and the fact that it's way easier to stack high damage and mobility with mana regen than it is with mana steal to create a stable, consistent and agile damage powerhouse makes it futile to compare mana steal with mana regen for dps. This means that the only way for mana steal to be better than mana regen is for it to have superior survivability. I'm happy to present this as the objective truth because it's formed on the basis of the knowledge I've gained from my consistent personal experiences, rather than just a theoretical belief.

How About Survivability?
Not gonna lie, I just brainlessly use pots, agi and ws to survive with my mr spellspam build, but I'd also do the exact same thing if I was using a mana steal build. It's at this point where my experience is lacking so I don't think it's suitable for me to make a point / argument and to represent it as a fact that should be taken into account. If you did happen to read this far Druser, I'd love to hear your knowledge and other ppl's knowledge on mana steal builds that focus on high survivability and minimal dps.

________________________________

Yay somebody who agrees with me on mana steal being rubbish :D - just to clarify that's not an insult to those who support it, but an observation of the incredible difference between mana regen and mana steal.

 

Experience != Truth
I don't deny it, but I don't agree. Most stealing builds are more durable because they have ele defs and def % associated with them (paradox among others). I agree that you can't get the same sustained damage because of limited mana and spending time on building mana rather than casting, but their defenses are comparable or better.

 

ahh I see, as for the experience thingy I can understand if you're saying that experience doesn't equal truth because of the concept of "just because it applies to me that doesn't mean it applies to everybody" mindset, I actually agree with that way of thinking - but in this situation I was referring to the idea of finding out that with 17/4 mana regen and 129 intelligence, unless you spam your spell cycle(s) at a super duper duper fast speed, then the majority of players would be able to spam spells at a constant and consistent rate. Only the most skilled with along with a great internet connection would be able to spam spell cycles quickly enough to the point where they would have to wait for a brief moment for their mana to be restored with 17-20mr and 129 int. I hope that makes sense, if it doesn't lemme know.

 

I am surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but what if archer arrows could pierce an enemy or two? this way archers could still hit multiple mobs at once and thus make mana steal and lifesteal a lot more viable for archers.

 

Mages already do that. Not a bad idea, but it's an opportunity to try something new. I think they shouldn't just copy mages IMO.

 

I'm going to have to disagree. With Super Slow, even a player with medium skill loses only about 10-15% of spellcasting time - a really skilled player will lose closer to 5%. This isn't nothing, but it's not that big considering mana steal can proc multiple times if there's more than one mob.

 

So, as I guess no one knew this, again (Because no one but me plays warrior I suppose)
Warrior has the only spell in-game that activates melee hits in casting.
http://prntscr.com/pj9uns

Yeah, I guess people didn't know this?
Uppercut starts a melee hit if you're close enough to a mob, on top of the normal damage of uppercut.
It is possible to do both this, and uppercut canceling if you're good enough at spacing.

Oh and not to mention this means warrior has the only spell in the game that still activates mana steal. ;) (Note, for some odd reason it activates mana steal AFTER the spell cost, so you can effectively get back the mana you spent)

http://prntscr.com/pj9dt0

http://prntscr.com/pj9qsu

________________________________

Note true with warrior.

 

Uppercut ends with a left click, which starts your melee attack after the spell activates AND your melee attack is given back. The spell does not activate melee, only the action before casting. Same for warscream, multihit, and smokebomb. Landing a melee hit during casting doesn't make much difference, nor is it intended. Archers and mages have their melee disabled during casting, which is why their skills don't produce that effect. The effect probably depends on how long your character is in their melee frames after the spell is cast and melee is reactivated. Again, it's does not appear to be intended. Edit: ping/latency may also extend or shorten how long the server believes your character is completing one swing. testing with faster attack speed vs lower attack speed would help.

 

This is false.

An easily way to tell so is to look at the melee cooldown on the bar when casting spells.
The only one being, you guessed it, uppercut. Heres some pictures.

http://prntscr.com/pj9rf6

http://prntscr.com/pj9rcd

http://prntscr.com/pj9r74

http://prntscr.com/pj9qpt

---

Counterexample.

http://prntscr.com/pj9qsu

Moreover, none of this actually activates melee, none of them have any effect during casting, which is probably the biggest mistake on your part.
Uppercut does, in fact, do damage during casting. Not after, not before, during.
Attack speed doesn't matter and has no effect on whether or not a weapon counts as a melee during uppercut.
Lag also does not affect this, it is just uppercut, no other spell does it period. Not on assassin, nor on warrior.

@TurboStratus Just so you also know its incorrect.

If you don't believe me, test it yourself, both I and @Druser can enforce this claim by the way.

 

How exactly did you get those numbers? I wanna know. Although even if we assume that's true, there's still the serious consistency issues with mana steal, only having a %chance to activate along with all of the issues I mentioned in my last response that you haven't answered to. tbh I truly want to know how others feel confident relying on mana steal, taking into account all the limitations I mentioned in my last response because whenever I think about comparing mana steal and regen I always come to the same conclusion - being that mana steal is worse for combat, and inconsistent and unreliable due all the points I mentioned.

oof you respond too fast, meanwhile I've spent the past 30 minutes jumping between different thoughts xD I can't keep up with ya :/ maybe I'll respond later, I dunno

 

At medium skill, 0.6 seconds cast time -> 0.2 seconds per click, so you're spending about 0.4 seconds per 4 second cycle clicking. If you're more skilled you can push click time to around 0.08-0.1 seconds, hence the 5% number.

Mana Steal hitting multiple mobs is a big multiplier. It is inconsistent, but not nearly as inconsistent as a single-target probability distribution would make it look like.

 

Spoiler: image

No you're right, I just talk out of my ass for fun. Again, I don't think it's intended. It's not easily repeatable, nor do I care enough to continue. Agree to disagree, either way, nerf intelligence, fix mana/life steal, IDs should work for all classes.

 

You didn't answer my question (being "how did you get those numbers? I wanna know). Did you time it? Did you randomly think of those numbers off the top of your head? It feels like you dodged the question, or maybe you just misunderstood what I was trying to ask you. I don't wanna sound rude and if I do then I apologise. Either way, it's better to look at that 15%, 10% and 5% as a vauge estimate since not everybody will be casting spells at the exact same rate.

I also have another question about the mana steal with hitting multiple mobs (will use super slow 50% chance for example), I've always made the assumption that it's like if you do (for example) 1 melee hit on 5 mobs at once, then you'd have a 50% chance of getting X mana steal multiplied by the 5 mobs. Is that correct or is it like you do 1 melee hit on 5 mobs and each mob has a 50% chance of giving you x mana steal? If you don't know, don't worry about it though.

Also I forgot to ask the most important thing. Do you think mana steal should be buffed, nerfed, or kept the same?

PS: I like to like other ppl's replys to remind myself that it's a debate and not a personal argument, so if you see my liking your responses that's why, so feel free to enjoy all the likes from taking your time to respond to the stuff I'm saying :D

 

Since we're throwing out 10 mr builds left and right, I ran calcs to figure out how many spells a full cycle is for that, and it comes out to around 0.6 seconds (this matches with my own experience, where I can generally cast 7-8 spells in a 4-second cycle consistently, and sometimes more if I push it). I got the 0.3 seconds number from talking to some warrers.

As I understand it, each hit mob will proc independently (so, the latter).

I think the balance of mana steal relative to other stats is pretty much fine as is. I do think that more items should get mana steal though (in revamp, endgame items with mana steal went from the current ~40 to about 60-70).