Weekly Community Discussion (10/01/2020) - Mythic Boots

Wait.. Tf?
I'm really confused as to the negavtaive respetion of Boreal.
Which, I'm begining to believe as more so todo in part with the element combanation more then anything else.

The Wynn build community, even if it doesn't want to admit it, is heavly slanted against tank builds.
The tankyness and general survivablity could more then make up for the lack of overall damage, and I'm not sure anyone would actually care.
Most don't seem to care if your able todo everything any other build can, expect without any potions at all, a massive lack of affort and the ability to afk for 20 mintuies at a time.

I will say I think tank builds fail at being tanks, and by that I mean they don't tend to abusrb damage, or have the ability to agro like an actual tank should, but that more so has todo with the lack of game systems, and bad class design. (The last update toke some steps to fix this, but I don't think its enough yet.) Keeping in mind that normally in MMOs, the diffculty of playing a tank would normally come with these systems.

People don't seem to care as to how tanky something can be, they don't seem to care as to how much easier tanks are to play (With the current systems) They don't seem to care about anything other than dps. It isn't an issue with boreal then, its an issue with how the build community looks at builds. Something I've always said to people, a tank build allows you to make more mistakes without it being the end of the world, and for people who aren't very skiled, or have terrible internet connection (Why I got into tanking) thats very important.

Nothing is wrong with Boreal, it is more then good for what it does. It doesn't even have bad damage, the damn thing doesn't have any negative damage stats, and has 3 fucking mana regen, thats pretty damn decent for full tank item.

 

Psst hey!
Just go with it let's get it buffed.

 

(When you don't want game balance, you just want to feel op.)

 

rev nerf? oh shid, when is it coming?

also Revenant > Scale of Seiryu, even tho there's no 52% ws rev yet...

 

man i can't believe they're doing a Statue x The Forsaken crossover right now

 

“but my power fantasy!”

 

Well, I do happen to like melee tanks, actually. I find that spell tank usually just can't get the damage it really needs to get through bosses, outside of using mythic weapons- and I don't think double mythic builds should influence opinions about them.

Boreal is put so low on my tier list because, well, you can't really deny that tank is worse than offensive, so most other boots already have a big lead on the more defensive ones. Although you could argue that some are also very offensive, the defensive boots are Resurgence, Moontower, Boreal and Crusade Sabatons, in my opinion. Let's go down all they have to offer compared to Boreal.

Resurgence is essentially a mana regen god now. Base 7 mr, 25 int, massive health (not far off of Boreal), enough health regen to also rival Boreal. While you may argue that the defense req is holding it back (honestly the only thing keeping it more or less acceptable), I think this pretty obviously outclasses Boreal.
Moontower is an odd one, and not really comparable to Boreal in any way; however, Moontower allows you to meet any int/agi reqs. And that's really it. I'm honestly not too sure about its placement, but it definitely has uses.
Crusade Sabatons has more health than Boreal, and can very solidly go for melee tank. The skill points are so useful you could even go for a master hive quad build, and the more I look at it the more I feel like it should actually be in a higher tier than I placed it.

Now for Boreal. What it has to offer is fairly unique, yes, but compared to the other mythic boots, it's really not that much. High health, walk speed, some mana regen, high hpr and good elemental defenses. Really just what you'd expect from a defensive pair of boots. However, it also has 75/75 requirements, health regen is very ineffective (even the amount Boreal brings isn't too useful) and elemental defenses are neat but when you need to fight something outside of those you're less happy. Boreal mostly suffers from not being able to do its intended use: tank spell. The requirements are too high to really get good high intelligence (unless you use Anam, at which point the build really isn't that tanky anymore), and Resurgence/Moontower offer the exact thing that Boreal needs here. Then you could use it for melee tank in EFA.. except Crusade Sabatons outclasses it in every single way there.

So no, tank builds are cool with me, it's just Boreal that kinda blows, especially compared to the other mythic boots. It could use some lower requirements, maybe from 75 def 75 agi to something like 60 def 70 agi.

 

Tier list in my opinion now that i've had some time to mess around with them on wynndata.

S: Revenant. Even post nerf I personally think these are the strongest of the current mythic boots. The -melee damage in my opinion isn't to much of an issue and when built within the earth/water/air hybrid play style they can be NUTS. Weapons such as Nona, The End, Hero, Alka cometflinger, and even hybrid build Morrowind (yes that actually works) are insanely strong when using these. All the ids are very important which can be a bit of a problem but the boots themselves don't possess enough drawbacks to make them not the best option for this playstyle. The only reason i'd ever not use them in my builds using e/w/a is for the ls on ex nihilo or somthing ig. And don't get me started on e/t/a melee with these...

S: Resurgence with 9/4 mr max seems really op. People are forgetting though that you won't always get 9/4mr rolls. However the heavy damage drawbacks seem fair now and while they are really really powerful I personally don't think they are the strongest of the mythic boots and are infact balanced. Maybe...a slight nerf to the intel or a slight increase in intel req (imo the former) could be warranted.

S-/A+: Moontower. Personally I think the walkspeed nerf here was stupid and unwarranted but whatever these are just skillpoint boots. I mean you can get insanely high amounts of intel from these as well as max agility. I have yet to abuse them outside of messing with Hadal but I think they are very strong right now. I'm on the fence of saying they are top tier boots mainly because alot of the time the -dex can hurt you a bit when making air/water spell builds.

A: Boreal. Very situational in builds but when put in the right build are extremely powerful. The only reason I don't think these are the best boots are because they only are super good with warrior and require the standard hpr armor slap to be fully utilized. The item itself is perfectly balanced as a mythic pair of boots but just lacks the item support it needs to give it's usage more variety...and as much as I want an air damage booster on this that would be overpowered.

A: Stardew. Why the hell do people say this is mage only?? Idol and Thrunda are nuts with these and I've found myself messing around with them on wynndata all the time. Almost any thunder or water spell weapon can have its damage limits broken. I could seriously just list the amount of weapons that I've pushed to insane damage levels with these but I think the three strongest that come to mind are Idol, Lament, and Sitis. All three of these get insane damage and the latter two of which get their mana sustain buffed even further. The main reason I don't have these at "S" tier is because the -mana regen on alot of builds can become difficult to counter with weapons that don't have mana regen leading to the damage boost sometimes not actually being worth it because of how much you give up getting mana. One other note is that these boots don't exclusively work for thunder and water but work perfectly fine with other elements as well. overall VERY EPIC.

A: Dawnbreak. The changes this update seem to be a buff after the last nerf it took. All around these boots work really well in heavy melee tank builds and with the new buffs to it's sustainability they seem to be in good spot now.

A: Warchief. These seem to very very strong in melee builds and also I could see myself using them in hybrid builds as well. The changes here seem kinda odd but more hybrid leaning and seem to push galleon as the slower melee boots in my opinion.

B: Galleon. These new galleon changes seem really cool. Those requirements will allow you to use it with Pisces and not slap any extra sp on to use it allowing for them to work really well in w/e/t and w/e/a hybrid builds. The main reason I have them as a "B" tier pair of mythic boots is simply because they don't bring anything incredible to the table that non mythic boots can fill. I mean they are better than boots like ex nihilo, capri, or memetoes in most spell hybrid builds they just aren't amazing. Regardless though they are very good when the builds they fit in come around.

B: Crusade Sabatons. Heeeyyyy these are skill point boots with reqs that make sense now! The actually give as much skill points are moontower if you factor in the -sp but that doesn't make them really op or anything. Even with up to 8300hp I generally would pick mantle walkers over these. However with the lowered reqs and the new sp boots they now are a strong option for earth/fire tank builds. While I think they still are a bit weaker than they should be this is most certainly progress.

C: Slayer. What is this used for and why would i want it in my build? these changes seem like a buff all around but I still don't get the point of the boots. Can someone please tell me i'm missing something cause I want to like them.

________________________________

I'll pretend to agree just for a buff but when you run around doing 10k uppers and regenerating 7000hp every ten seconds you truly feel as though you are a god.

 

I can, and I will.

This is just wrong.
Hp regen is rather effective at tanking, if not currently the most effective way to tank.

Then your doing something wrong.
i can get through most bosses with blade of purity, much less ignition, or the legendary air spear.

 

To add to this
Tank on warrior is generally better than damage unless it's idol or thrunda...even then tank can still be better. I will agree that on other classes tank isn't always the best way to go.

Health Regen even without Boreal can be very strong. The trouble is the health Regen slap is needed which gives you the choice of three helms, one chestplate, and two pairs of pants. However without Boreal there are some hpr boots that can can get your builds to 5k hpr without giving up so much damage that you are no longer viable.

As for damage the damage you can deal over the course of the fight without dieing is more important. I find soloing li and eo with my 10k upper air build much easier that using my 20k+ upper Idol and Thrunda builds. Crafteds can fill the niche for low damage but non crafted Spears work perfectly fine.

 

Hmm...

Slayer: High mobility and 3rd spell cost reduction, quite effective for low int spell builds.
Also Slayer: +1 tier, tons of raw melee and mobility (aswell as stealing% if you want to use OKR), fairly good for melee.
Also also Slayer: Everything together above, quite effective no int hybrid

Seems like Slayer has no uses at all.

 

I would be interested in seeing some builds for it as I just never found them optimal in any of mine. No need to be sarcastic about it ;)

 

when it comes to slayer, your best options are undoubtedly hybrids. you can take these hybrids two different ways:
super slow hybrid: very good damage with shockingly high sustain, 1 mana bombs. has both agi and defense for good survivability
super fast hybrid: again, very good damage. melee dps is high enough to use without losing dps, and aura only costs 1 mana as well

 

These seem interesting and really good. I think when I was building with Slayer I focused more on getting dps through melee over spells. I'm still not entirely convinced they are really good but they are most certainly better than I had thought.

 

https://wynndata.tk/s/g75ze3 - Warchief's agile counterpart. Recommended to use Smoke Bomb for higher chance to drop an emerald (and some extra dps on top of it). It could take out some foes in a vanish. (Bad pun lol)

Edit: https://wynndata.tk/s/2hvdxb - Sunstar, featuring high melee dps and low cost high Aura dmg

 

I'm not sure that's right. Earth/Air isn't a staple such as.. Thunder/Water, maybe. But it isn't necessarily weak. It's a good combination when paired with another element as it usually lacks the centrepieces of other builds such as mana. The issue with revenant, as stated before, is that its health was not representative of E/A, even if its rollable.

That high of walk speed was not necessary. An item does not need to be used in pure walk speed builds (and therefore have the highest walk speed of that item type) for its walk speed to be deemed too high. Speed wasn't meant to be the focus of the item, but rather its skill points and defensive prowess, which was increased. W/A is quite elementally defensive, you're correct, and these boots simply play into and strengthens that.

I think slayer will remain a fairly niche item, but in its niches, it will be quite powerful. Boosting melee damage with an extreme affinity towards your class' main damaging spell alongside other things such as tier/melee damage should prove to be quite strong. It won't see much use in builds purely spec'd into either melee or spell, but it will have a place for things without max attack speed (say Fatal/Sunstar) that will benefit from its tier boost as well as its spell cost.

There wasn't a specific goal here, rather than just adjusting its out of place health amount. For the elements it's in, the health being as high as it was didn't make much sense. As for it being used for mage, it's because mage's meteor has the highest spell multiplier (500%) of any class so the raw spell amount is the strongest there. Rather than reducing that directly, we just opted to increase its % damages to be more worthwhile on things without such high spell multipliers (Archer/Shaman, for example).

Fire/Air is not a commonly used archetype, you're correct, but its survivability is unmatched. Many players enjoy the sustainability of it and the ease of use (as you aren't prone to dying compared to something such as E/T). Damage does reign supreme right now, but that's not necessarily an issue with the strength of the archetypes themselves but rather a player preference/game design issue.

About resurgence being better... I'd say they do somewhat different things. Boreal provides more of a defensive aspect to your build, superboosting your health sustain and profiting off building into raw health regen more than anything whereas resurgence allows you to focus on damage due to it being a mana battery with the intelligence boost and health regen allowing some synergies such as sizzling shawl. Their elements ensure they're used completely differently as well. You're not likely to see a build relying on boreal alone for mana sustain, for example.

Less wynn's build community, more of wynncraft itself, really. There are little situations in the game where building sustain is more beneficial than building damage. Building damage allows you to clear enemies and objectives much quicker, whereas building sustain is largely unnecessary. Especially so given the methods of sustain that exist without sacrificing damage (health potions, heal spells, lifesteal). I include lifesteal because its present on many offensive things and is readily available without sacrificing damage, unlike health regen.

People prefer the most optimal way of playing the game. Building tankiness/survivability is unecessary for the large majority of players because building tank doesn't have much of a purpose other than, like you mentioned, ease of use and the ability to correct mistakes. The main issue is that nothing in wynn (save for The Eye, which doesn't even benefit from tanking whatsoever, it's actually detrimental).

If that's the case then maybe you'd like to share and enlighten some folks rather than directly defy them and just telling them "they're doing something wrong." It's not a very productive way to have a discussion or to get anything changed.

 

I agree with you on that point. but compared to others strong combinaisons of elements, who wants to play E/A when you have some others builds far better ?
I tried to make some builds with weapons like nona, and I compared them with pure Earth and pure Air. And the statement it simple : Pure Air or Earth are generally better than a combinaison of both.
After there are some combinaisons like ETA or EWA that are really powerful, but it's not only E/A.

Boreal's intrinsic power is really strong in itself. But we have to put that into perspective. As previously saids (and I totally agree) :

1) the current game design incites players to use builds with more and more damages without take care of survivability. It is due to the hpr of mobs : if you can't do enough damages, you will never able to kill some boss, no matter how your survivability is strong.
But not only. Even if you do enough damages, fights will be long. It'a a rule that apply to every MMO's games : The more you'r tanky, The less you will do damages (and vice versa), for obvious reasons of game's balancing. "yeah, but that's not a problem in that case" you will tell me. In fact, that's not. But players do not have an illimited play time. So they will opt for builds which allow to end fights, quest, dongeon as quickly as possible, in order to optimize theire playtime.

2) The role of a tank is to absorb damages in order to protect it's allies. Allies who are supposed to deal damages. But 3 problems : if you're alone (and that's the case for many players ) it's a tactic less effectiv : you will absorb, yes, and who will do damages ?
It's hard to absord damages in places of your allies, due to the system of mob's aggo. It's the player who deals the most of damages (and generally the most glassy) who will take aggro. So if you're a tank, you're not supposed to take damages, and you can't take aggro. Except if you're a warrior with strobelight.
The other way is to use guardian to halve damages taken by allies. And again, it's for warrior only.

I will not continue to explain the defaults of the current game design and why dps a privilegied, that's not the topic. It's just to say ; Boreal is not bad in itself, but it's in a hard position alongside tankyness, regarding the current game design. And this is why I think Resurgence is better than boreal, even if they have very different use.
After a re-reading of your post, I realized that we reached an agreement about game design. But I think buff boreal will help make tank build more playable.
(you're post was very enlightening by the way)

 

This is really surprising considering how big of a buff it got to hybrid.
This is an insane example of how well slayer works for hybrid
https://wynndata.tk/s/hzgapn

Slayer can work really well for simple BPC/Slayer slap and just not needing to put any more intel (68 would be just enough since you want your other spells to be decreased too) for offensive gameplay.

That said, as I mentioned before Slayer Heavy spell (brainwash) is only for very offensive gameplay (ETA) and is in general not a good choice for non-hybrid usage for slayer.

 

Dude

E/A is super strong especially combined with either elysium or twilight plate. I’m not sure how you made your builds, but with prenerf and even post nerf revenant you can boost both your dps and tankiness by a huge amount.

Regarding tanks, hyper tanks atm are just not viable and we agree on that, however many people always look over Def agi Sp tanks with good-high dps. You don’t need to be pure tank to survive an insane amount of hits even from bosses like the eye. Especially with some specific classes going full dps is too clunky and sometimes difficult to stay alive with.

 

I agree. I'm just saying E/A is not as strong as some others combinaisons , making this archetype under used in comparaison.
For example, ETA or EWA are generally better than E/A alone.

Yeah, but looking for Def/agi sp do not mean that you use a "pure" F/A archetype. Plus, Boreal does not provide Def/agi sp bonus, so players looking for these sp will not use Boreal