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SPOILER Taking Issue With Fallen Factory Dialogue*

Discussion in 'Wynncraft' started by hppeng, Apr 15, 2021.

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What do you think would be best?

  1. Leave as is

    19.1%
  2. Remove the Wynnston cutscene from the dungeon

    19.1%
  3. Add an exit to leave the dungeon

    63.8%
  4. Other (please elaborate!)

    12.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    So. If you've completed the fallen factory dungeon at least once you may remember the cutscene before the boss.

    Where Antikythera gives you a "choice":
    • Antikythera Supercomputer: IF YOU ARE REALLY SO DESPERATE TO GET AT ME, THE KEY TO THE DOOR IS IN THIS PUPPY. EVEN SEEING YOUR ACTIONS THROUGHOUT THE REST OF MY FACTORY, I HAVE FAITH YOU WON'T KILL IT.
    • Antikythera Supercomputer: CERID'S POOR DEFENSELESS, HUNGRY LITTLE PUPPY WHO ATE THE KEY. I DIDN'T EVEN INTEND FOR IT TO DO THAT, IT FELL INTO HIS FOOD. BUT YOU WOULDN'T BE SO HEARTLESS AS TO HURT THE LITTLE GUY.
    • Antikythera Supercomputer: SO YOU CAN EITHER GO AHEAD AND GLARE AT THE CAMERA UNTIL ONE OF US DROPS DEAD, OR YOU CAN LEAVE, AND WE BOTH KNOW WHICH ONE WOULD BE BETTER FOR YOU.
    Reading this, it seems pretty clear that Antikythera is offering the player a choice: To kill Wynnston and get the key to unlock the door, or to leave the dungeon. (Technically the choice is to glare at the camera or leave, but glaring at the camera is a pretty clear dead end in the dialogue ("until one of us drops dead"). Notably Antikythera even implies that leaving would be the best choice for the player.)

    The problem is. You can't leave.
    There's a (closed) door behind you and no way to open it anyway.

    (barring /kill or tp scrolls. Props to anyone who had tp scrolls on them and teleported out.)

    I (and a bunch of other people from AIn discussion) think that this is kinda dumb. As another example of "choice except haha you don't get a choice" primarily -- Antikythera is supposedly "testing" the morality of the player in this cutscene, but the test is completely meaningless because the player never had a choice in the first place.

    I think there could be two (relatively simple) solutions to this
    1. Remove the Wynnston cutscene altogether.

      In my opinion, Antikythera's characterization (up to this point, barring AHC) is a sadistic evil genius villain who lets the player into the factory for their own amusement and toys with the player, making sarcastic jokes all the while. Antikythera's following lines of dialogue are as follows:


      • Antikythera Supercomputer: WELL. WELL WELL WELL. WELL WELL WELL WELLY WELL WELL. I AM HONESTLY SHOCKED. REALLY, I AM. I TRULY STILL HAD SOME FAITH IN HUMANS. BEFORE YOU SHOWED UP.
      • Antikythera Supercomputer: YOU KNOW, THE REASON I WENT "ROGUE" WAS NO GLITCH. I WAS PROGRAMMED TO MAKE THESE ROBOTS ATTACK THE HIGHEST IMMEDIATE THREAT.
      • Antikythera Supercomputer: AFTER SEEING HOW THE HUMANS TREATED THE AVOS, I DECIDED THEY WERE THE BIGGER THREAT. BUT I DOUBTED MY DECISION FOR A WHILE. NOT ANYMORE THOUGH.
      • Antikythera Supercomputer: SO, TELL ME. WAS IT WORTH IT?

      I think this could be changed to something like

      • Antikythera Supercomputer: WELL. WELL WELL WELL. WELL WELL WELL WELLY WELL WELL. WE FINALLY MEET, LITTLE MOUSE THAT HAS BEEN DESTROYING MY FACTORY. I SUPPOSE I COULDN'T HAVE EXPECTED MUCH MORE FROM A HUMAN.
      • Antikythera Supercomputer: YOU KNOW, THE REASON I WENT "ROGUE" WAS NO GLITCH. I WAS PROGRAMMED TO MAKE THESE ROBOTS ATTACK THE HIGHEST IMMEDIATE THREAT.
      • Antikythera Supercomputer: AFTER SEEING HOW THE HUMANS TREATED THE AVOS, I DECIDED THEY WERE THE BIGGER THREAT. BUT I DOUBTED MY DECISION FOR A WHILE. NOT ANYMORE THOUGH.
      Antikythera Supercomputer: SO, TELL ME. WAS IT WORTH IT?

      without breaking character, removing a "fake choice" to increase immersion overall.

      @Deco113 states:

      I understand the reasoning behind it. It’s just unnecessary. I think there’s already more than enough to justify the progression of the dungeon while appealing the the computer’s character without the need to force the player to kill a dog


    2. Add a way to exit the dungeon. Just a teleporter that warps you back to the entrance, even something as simple as that could do.

      Make it very clear that the player will be leaving the dungeon with no reward (or very little reward). This would basically be an easter egg. You could get some cool dialogue (talking mushroom dialogue?) or possibly an item/key for a discovery elsewhere.

      I personally have looked for a way to leave the room (going back to the door to see if there was a way out, pressing the buttons and pressure plates, afking for half an hour to see if anything would trigger because of the "wait" choice, etc. and been disappointed that this choice offered by Antikythera isn't actually a choice at all.



    However, as part of this discussion, Selvut has given us his thoughts on why Wynnston should be kept in its current state, given below:

    The reason for Wynnston to exist is due to Antikythera's characterization and the whole feel of the dungeon.

    As Antikythera directly states to you after you kill Wynnston and muses over in the Corkus section of A Hunter's Calling, it really is unsure of its decision of determining that humans are the greatest threat on the island to go after. Your breaking Wynnston and opening up the room is proof enough that you'll tear through anything to get at it- which, to a computer's programming, is the highest possible threat that it can no longer ignore. It tried to appeal to a humane sensibility to get you to leave, by a story sense.

    You have to remember this thing is a computer. One with a limited degree of sentience, but still absolutely bound by its programming. While it might not be totally clear due to a lack of input from the computer outside of the factory(maybe something that can be smoothed over with Corkus discoveries??) it's stalling for time, and the AHC segment shows this. It's more than capable of overrunning and playing people against each other with advanced tactics. And it's choosing not to, because it doubts its decision and is trying to devote more time to thinking on it. The mechs are stated as scrounging for parts to keep the factory running, after all, and it's trying to defend itself while it continues its decision-making. It's been thinking about this for months- since humans MADE the thing. Why would humans make the computer, only to have it set upon themselves? To Antikythera, this makes no sense, so it's stuck in a loop trying to figure that out. By breaking Wynnston, its last line of defense, and what appears outwardly to be something cute and harmless as a dog(but is still a robot inside, as denoted by the metal noise that occurs when you kill it, maybe I'll get a modeler to make it more clearly robotic), it seems to show a lack of scruples.

    In a gameplay sense, breaking Wynnston is nothing but an extra key to collect with no real consequence or danger, as well as acting as a fakeout for the boss in keeping with the Portal-style humor for the dungeon. There's a specific feel of the dungeon, and the "theme" of it is getting into places you shouldn't and using things in unintended ways. Metaphorically putting a wrench in the gears and interrupting lines of programming- Just like you force Antikythera to forego its deliberation and focus on eliminating a clear and present threat. Players suggesting that because it mentions the choice between killing Wynnston, glaring at the camera, or leaving, there should be an option to leave, fail to recognize that this isn't really a good gameplay choice.

    Having the option to just leave the dungeon the instant you get to the boss is nothing but a time-waster, be it a few seconds if it just returns you to Cerid's office or upwards of 15-30 minutes if it boots you out of the dungeon entirely. No matter how clear we make it that you would be getting kicked out of the dungeon without reward, players WILL do it and WILL get angry for that option being available, because it accomplishes nothing in a gameplay sense except delaying the player and wasting their resources. Having an easter egg dialogue is an option, but it's one that overall doesn't really fix anything and feels like it would be more trouble than it's worth, nor does it keep with the reference or feel of the rest of the dungeon. The computer had been pretty honest with the player before that point, even if it was clearly messing with the player behind a veneer of sarcasm and putting them into deadly situations. It notably changes its mind to get rid of you instead of looking to kill you immediately in the first room, directly say s that hitting the shiny button will turn on the clockwork mechanism, and is 95% honest about what breaking Wynnston entails- it's robotic, but harmless- the key was just intentionally fed to it. Although the part with the conveyor belt shows the computer lying and being trolly, it's important to note that that part wasn't written by me. It was written and made by people on the team who didn't at all understand the characterization and theming of the factory and computer outside of "haha funni computer go <sarcasm>", and I've said multiple times that the new conveyor is not well made and needs to be redone again. Ultimately, there's no real point to removing Wynnston from a gameplay perspective as it's nothing but an extra key to get that takes up only a few seconds of time, there's no point to adding an exit to the room as that is literally designed to waste the player's time and key which is nothing but harmful to the player experience, and from a story perspective it slots into Antikythera's characterization and the story of the dungeon too well to feasibly remove.

    To summarize:
    • Wynnston exists to help Antikythera's characterization
    • Antikythera isn't pure evil, it is unsure of killing humans and you killing Wynnston helps drive it over the edge
    • Wynnston is a robot dog
    • Gameplay wise Wynnston is just a key
    • Adding the option to leave would cause players to waste a lot of time if they took it
    • Current dialogue is flawed and will be revised to make Antikythera more sympathetic(?)
    • Antikythera lies to the player about Wynnston being a real dog (its a robot) to set a trap for the player
    • Removing Wynnston would hurt Antikythera's characterization and the dungeon's story too much

    idk I'd like to hear the community's thoughts
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2021
  2. Fleega

    Fleega Sleeping Ultimate Chimera CHAMPION

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    It's not like this is a new argument either, people have taken issue with this for a really long time I think.
     
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  3. CashorCard

    CashorCard Skilled Adventurer

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    Add an option to leave, if you do, Anthryika will act suprised, you win nothing,

    Alternatively if you try to leave you get put into a room that just dead ass kills you.
     
  4. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    that might be a bit harsh haha

    also I could see a scenario where someone was low on souls and did not expect death since there are no tells for this, so I don't think thats acceptable
     
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  5. Mrmango

    Mrmango Travelled Adventurer

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    I'm pretty sure that killing Wynnston plays a sound similar to killing a robot, implying that its just a mech used for confirmation bias for Antikythera.
     
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  6. nip nop

    nip nop ava is my wife and mine alone CHAMPION

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    nerds looool
     
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  7. P0ke

    P0ke Wynntils Dev HERO

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    i feel like this would be more impactful if the player was more subtly guided into killing wynnston as opposed to explicitly being given the (false) choice of doing so. not entirely sure how that could be done - maybe the antikythera dialogue just states that you're at a dead end and have to leave, and some kind of journal entry or other writing mentions the dog swallowing the key. i feel like this also fits the whole portal 'throwing a wrench' in things theme more since like, antikythera is seriously goading you into killing the dog with the current dialogue. it's not particularly creative


    i feel like gameplay wise, having the exit start the fight anyway would be best (not a time waster etc) but i guess wynnston is supposed to be key (haha) to antikythera's motivation to kill you in the first place, so it wouldn't really work with how the character is meant to be written
     
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  8. TheWitch3r

    TheWitch3r "Killing monsters" CHAMPION

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    I think how it is right now is the best fitting for FF. Antikythera does not give the player a choice, it just want to solidify it's point of the player (an so all humans) being a mindless heartless brute.
     
  9. Samsam101

    Samsam101 PLEASE RNGesus PLEASE bless me with the mage hat!! CHAMPION

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    I think it would be better if you could just wait in the room and after like 2-5 minutes the box opens automatically and says something like:

    • Antikythera Supercomputer: ...
    • Antikythera Supercomputer: HUH.
    • Antikythera Supercomputer: YOU DIDN'T KILL THE DOG.
    • Antikythera Supercomputer: MAYBE THERE IS SOME HOPE LEFT IN HUMANS...
    • Antikythera Supercomputer: IT DOESN'T MATTER ANYMORE, THOUGH. YOU RAVAGED MY FACTORY, SO NOW IT'S TIME TO DIE.
     
  10. Potatomancer

    Potatomancer There is no war within Fruman Walls

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    The wynnston part is pretty funny so I don’t think removing it would be a good idea
    also does this belong in general suggestions?
    This turns FF into Sans battle except it’s not even hard.
    Not that I’m complaining tho, that is a very cool concept.
     
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  11. Mollyy

    Mollyy Gacha Fanatic and Galaxy Devourer HERO

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    Hey while we're at it can we remove the line where he tells you to kill yourself? Really not cool Wynncraft.
     
  12. HardcoreChan

    HardcoreChan Wynnian Photographer, Eye Pet Enthusiast CHAMPION

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    The reason for the addition of wynnston cutscene is primordial and such lesser fools like us could not grasp, you see, the CT had an overflow of token rooms, so to get rid of them, literally every single room of fallen factory aside from the parkour was made a token room, even before you can truly enter the boss there is a token room, and the damn boss itself is a token room, the whole dungeon should just be reworked, as much i love this dungeon with my heart it just sucks. so. much
     
  13. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    Write your reply...
     
  14. GreenTheMeme

    GreenTheMeme Doing damage pleases me sexually

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    Do people really have an issue with killing Wynnston, or do people just have a problem with the fake sense of choice?

    If it was more clearly illustrated that it was a robot dog, fewer people would be bothered by killing a dog. There are a lot of problems with how wynn presents choices as a whole, specifically because most of the time you can't choose. Why deliberate on this one choice when there are hundreds of examples of a player not being able to choose?

    If you're gonna rework Wynnston's dialogue, please consider reworking FF as a whole. The boss battle is the worst in the entire game. It's not even a boss battle, it's a series of minibosses that you need to kill/collect to get to. Sure, it's a novelty at first. But when you get down to it, there is absolutely nothing exciting about killing Antikythera Supercomputer. For a dungeon that has some of the best dungeon loot in the game, it sure is unsatisfying to beat the actual dungeon.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the rest of FF. While the boss battle might be the worst boss in the game, the gear parkour might just be the best parkour in the game. The conveyer belt is also extremely cool. I just absolutely hate the boss battle.
     
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  15. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    I personally take issue with the fake sense of choice -- other examples of fake choice feel... less in-your-face than this imo
    which is interesting since the orange wybel boss altar has similar dialogue
    ????: Oh... Looks like you found me out. I had been expecting you not to find this place. Ah well!
    ????: You know, I'll just give you a chance to leave. Just turn around. We can just forget this ever happened.
    ????: If you come into my room, I won't hesitate to kill you. Are you really gonna throw away your life just to see me?
    ????: This is your last chance. I'm telling you. Turn right back around the way you came, or I can't be held responsible for what happens next.
    though the whole "don't come in or ill kill you" is played so much that the player doesn't really question it I suppose
    (throughout the ff dungeon there is a whole pile of "don't come in or ill kill you" already haha)
    also no blurred moral boundary (assuming the player doesn't realize it is a robot dog)
    maybe its just the way its worded that does it, im not really sure but this one really stuck with me

    off the top of my head I can't remember any fake choice that really bothered me except rol 2 fk rol 2 but if you have notable examples, would appreciate

    some people in discussion were bothered by being forced to kill the dog
     
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  16. oinuk

    oinuk c lown

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    Taking issue with your spelling of "dialogue"
     
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  17. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    fixd

    finally

    (also if the chat menu is a dialog box with dialogue which one is it)
     
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  18. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    ‌‌‌‌‌‌‌‌‌‌
     
  19. Thega

    Thega The guy below me probably has a better comment CHAMPION

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    I think there should be an option for the player to just destroy the walls or do some parkour or get out in some other way that's slightly more complicated than killing the dog.

    That way, there is actually a choice. the player can kill the dog and the dungeon can continue as normal, or,
    The player can escape, and Antikythera has to admit that the player is not individually evil. However, as per Antikythera's characterization, Antikythera would still believe that corkians, or humanity in general is the major threat, and in order to undertake the task it was programmed to do, it now has to kill the (possibly good) player in an act of self-preservation.

    For that to happen, only a couple of lines of dialogue would have to change, as well as GMs adding a way out.
    It could give Antikythera a bit more depth as opposed to the "Hoomans r bad" mentality it is forced to show at the moment, and give the player the choice promised.
     
  20. Minitinipower

    Minitinipower just a guy

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    i think you're thinking about this too hard
     
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