SPOILER Moral Ambiguity Doesn’t Work in Wynn

It would be cool if something with the light obelisks in the RoL itself having similar effects with the inhabitants of the realm was expanded upon, like if the light obelisks in RoL had the same effect as the lutho ones.

 

Wasn’t that whole stick about the residents of lutho having the choice to give up their soul in exchange to live in a different version of the town in bliss? Not sure what’s evil about that.

 

not sure whats evil about giving up your soul to live a lie?

have you like
ever consumed any media
ever

 

I was comparing it to a heaven more so. Because that’s basically what a heaven is; where a soul goes to live in bliss. Except in this case, their bodies are still alive in some sort of cationic state.

 

still sounds weird tho

 

It is, but hey what afterlife isn’t weird?

 

the "salvation" the obelisk provides is not a good thing. Orphion basically went "heres a thingy to heal you and keep darkness away in this horrible place you will be stuck living in your entire life, or you could go to this happy place and give me your soul" and while helping them is a good thing, including the second bit at all makes that a weird thing to do. I think Orphion sent that not as good will, but to get a foothold in SE. Its not clear why they need this but the soul part both gets their free will out of the picture while simultaneously keeping them alive forever allowing them to maybe maintain the town and the like. I doubt the light can actually control their forms but the fact that they still move around is notable, and I wouldn't be shocked if they could be used as pawns if the need arose. While the choice is technically a choice, keep in mind that the quest makes it harder to leave happier lutho than to stay there, needing incredible willpower to escape; willpower that a band of miners lost and afraid in a hopeless, terrible place would not have. I do not know how the light may control these souls, but this was definitely not an act of kindness.

 

In all honesty this doesnt really work for me due to some things ingame, mainly the way orphion mentions lari as "you have to save her" after completing the nexus of light, if he truly didnt care about lari he would focus on us entirely, since "our light is much stronger tha he thought" he wouldn't even think about Lari

leaving us, the player, as the ones who would choose to save her/leave her to die in the dark realm

 

You 'redeem' her and she becomes useful again

 

Additionally to this Lari does need some small tweaks tbh, as many have mentioned already she is only "worthless" to orphion because of her extreme stupidity, refusing to kill a degenerate monster because of her unexplained pacifism, it doesn't make orphion look bad as much as it makes lari look even worse, although yeah i agree its mostly because of setting, with the decay the parasite brought being all bad and light being all good, maybe it would work better when the setting does improve showing light as bad too

 

The problem with that is that we have already seen when the Light was more powerful, and everyone in Gavel was objectively better off. Which is the whole reason why we are fighting for the Light to begin with. The Light is just nowhere as destructive to the native habitants of the overworld as the Darkness and Corruption are. It would be contradictory then for the Light to start harming the overworld when it regains power when it never harmed the overworld when it was more powerful. Would it even be terrible if the Light took over Wynn, Corkus, Fruma, and the rest of the world?

 

One of the CT - possibly Mad - said at some point that the Lutho obelisk is the Light's answer to the Parasite. Clearly not a very effective one, but to be fair, the Expanse is very small anyways. It is able to keep Lutho safe, at the very least, and theoretically that's a chokepoint, although the SE is already fully Darkened/

 

"Just as the darkness infiltrated Gavel, the Light was able to protect the physical bodies of the miners in Lutho by erecting this Monolith."

The area around the obelisk is not fully darkened.

 

Well obviously. But the rest of the SE is Darkened, so the obelisk isn't really preventing the spread of Dark, just removing it in a small area.

 

This is why I headcanon that after dealing with the Dern Beast, Orphion is going to expand massively and we will have to fight him as well.

Question: Would you rather live in an illusion that's basically the best life you can get, or maybe live in an absolutely horrible conditions, with way too many options of excruciating death, which is unlikely to be the end for you, more that likely being infected and mutated by the Darkness? You are stuck in just another version of hell here, one you most likely can't escape. And that my body is used for the benefit of my savior? As long as I don't know about it, honestly, I'd call that a fair deal.

Now, I'll be honest here. As I am writing this from my comfy chair I would likely choose the truth, but I am really conscious about this kind of stuff. But if I was in that situation, I don't think either choice would be certain.

 

gimme that eternal bliss lmao no questions asked

 

honestly im fairly sure this was intended from the start, its just that the writing for the entirety of gavel is extremely subpar and theres not a single quest that shows this properly

the one true enemy has always been the corruption, rol and dern are just doing their own thing and coexisting
as far as we know the dern beast seems to be actively working with the corrupted (bakal) but even then thats not an inherently evil trait from dern either, it could be pure utilitarianism just like orphion choose us and lari

i dont think its fair to say that the light taking over would be better than the darkness taking over either, the only difference is that dern creatures look more alien to us but both gavel and the expanse are equally fucked up. like yeah dern has critters that dismember you and steal your liver but the dwarves have persecuted and tortured the doguns for centuries, the villagers are comitting more war crimes than you can count, 95% of the light creatures in gavel and rol are out to kill you, the elves have literally condemned the world to eternal suffering just for fun...
so overall i feel like light vs darkness is a law vs lawless thing, but the law is systemic racism, genocide and being stupid and lawlessness is a constant state of living in the purge movies

as of right now id even say the realm of light seems way worse from a completely neutral moral standpoint but thats only because we've seen most of what happens there and we've never seen dern. orphion is an incompetent little bitch who gaslit lari for centuries and procrastinated until we came along to fix his own damn problems and the beings from gavel are Fucked Up and i hate them

tldr fuck orphion and the dern beast, we should kill them both and take their place. lari is the only moral character in the game but the realm of light questline sucks so its more focused on making you hate her than realize orphions the real problem

 

1. can't kill orphion and dern, it's metaphysically impossible. they're immortal, irreconcilable, and there's no way to get them to stop.
2. i don't consider it very moral to attempt to reason with a mindless agent of torment instead of just. killing it. lari has made severe mistakes and is directly responsible for the state of northwest gavel.

yeah so it's basically a choice between nightmare hell and dreamlike hell. i know which one i would pick.

i mean like. what am i going to do, as a lutho citizen? in real!lutho, i'm surrounded by the toxic wastes on one side and the eyeball forest on the other, both of which are very dangerous and likely to kill me. (in fact the wastes have already managed to kill a large number of lutho citizens.) in fake!lutho, i can't really leave, the fake world doesn't extend past lutho, but there's other people there, it doesn't look horrendous, and i'm broadly safe.

wait, just had a thought.

if your movements in fake!lutho pilot your body in real!lutho, then...

...well, the gate out of happier lutho corresponds to the area of the toxic wastes. an area where there are several mutant lutho citizens.

did they try to escape, only to be ripped out of the dream and killed by the wastes? seems possible.

 

They can be stopped...? Orphion is effectively stopped by the Parasite, and while it doesn't keep him down forever, it certainly prevents him from doing much. You can totally intervene and put up roadblocks in their way to halt or slow them down.

 

??? I don’t know where you’re getting all of this and why you’re blaming those actions on Orphion. He wasn’t involved at all with the affairs of the dwarves, doguns, orcs, or villagers. The only exception was the elves, which didn’t cut down the tree for fun, but because they just misinterpreted a vision of Orphion telling the elves to do the literal opposite. And even if that was the reason the elves did so, Orphion certainly would have never approved of it. So the elves are just stupid, and it was never Orphion’s fault to begin with for any of those actions you described.

Orphion doesn’t make or enforce laws across Gavel like a central government would either. His influence mostly keeps the surrounding forests and lands healthy. The races of Gavel are still self-governing. Which is why the native inhabitants of Gavel can coexist and thrive with the Light. Whereas the only remaining inhabitants of the SE are there because the Light intervened there.

Idk how you can take away Lari’s actions from the game and pin it on Orphion. Lari and the elves were completely responsible for the Decay and the Corruption Portal opening. The game literally states she fucked up multiple times by refusing to kill a gross parasite monster that she knew would inflict massive suffering on Gavel. That’s not moral, that’s just straight stupidity. So how is Orphion an incompetent little bitch in that situation?

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Maybe? But the fact that he never got past the Gavel province after having thousands of years to do so kinda muffles that point. Would it even be a bad thing if the Light reached the rest of the Wynn province?

I don’t think so because again people can live and thrive under the Light, but not corruption or darkness.