Discussion in 'Nemract's Bar' started by Dr Zed, May 11, 2022.
I don't understand why Mojang removes features they already added...
They simply gave up on the concept of fireflies, frogs not being able to eat them irl has nothing to do with it.
What raises more awareness, having frogs and fireflies co-exist while frogs avoid eating them, or having no fireflies at all? Maybe I'm just missing something.
Lately Mojang has been going around with this whole awareness theme, probably because of Microsoft. And it's cool and all, I like it. But they are just using it as excuses.
"Oh, we can't add sharks or players will kill them!!" Then just don't make them aggressive. Give players a reason to keep them alive and not hurt them.
Anyways those are just my 2 cents, I'm gonna go now. I need to get ready my army of axolots (an endangered species) to use as cannon fodder against some guardians
I swear to God they spend 75% of their time in the office sitting on their asses and eating Doritos.
Can't believe people are getting up in arms about this. How dare Mojang remove one minor unreleased feature from the game???
I mean they announced like six features for the wild update, and two of those were originally planned for 1.17. It's a little weird that they're then choosing to remove two more features from 1.19, especially since (to my knowledge) they've never just outright refused to add an announced feature before. Like, at this point the entire update is just an old biome vote being added in and finishing up the rest of Caves and Cliffs.
I'm not mad about the situation but I do think it's more than a little strange.
It's not even like the fireflies would be very hard to code, its just a big box entity with a particle effect
It’s what Mystic said and also about updates in general. It just feels that they’re skimping out on this update and their reasoning is weird. Like all of sudden Mojang cares about realism in Minecraft out of all games and uses it to justify removing a feature.
Tl;DR: A moderate ammount of "hate" is 100% healthy. Imo their standards are way too high, sometimes quantity > quality.
If you see any discussion involving official Mojang members and the theme of "mods vs. vanilla", they will always talk about how it's different and they have really high standards there.
The big problem, atleast for me, is that it feels like they have someone supervisioning their every move, making sure everything has the highest standards possible, yet they just keep on delaying updates and removing features. Like, how do they check every step of the way, yet they have had to postpone the deep dark so many times? (Btw no hate to Mojang, I'll explain this later)
You know, I'm personally not that big of a fan of vanilla. Imo the best experiences you can have with minecraft are mods and servers. The game's vanilla premise just doesn't resonate with me anymore.
In the beginning I was really excited for the caves and cliffs update, and when they divided it into 2 parts everyone was sad, but they still accepted it fairly well.
The problem is, if there isn't criticism things don't really have much reason to change. These kind of talks are EXTREMELY healthy for game devolpment, as long as it isn't just pure, overwhelming hate.
I'll be honest man, I really wish they would let the devs "lower" their standards and actually get some work done. Sure, it might not come out stellar. I'm sure a big part of those standards are making sure everything is vanilla-like, but then there's features like the Warden which just looks like it came straight from a mod. And there's no problem with that! It just contributes to the creepiness, the Warden is supposed to feel unnatural, a freak of nature, even.
Hell, like I just said, I reasonably prefer modded over vanilla. Do you know how many people feel that way too?
Sure, let's not erase Minecraft entirely, the game has to keep its essence, and this is extremely imporant. But straying away from what is considered convencional is the key to innovation, is it not? :]
It’s less so about quantity over quality and more so that they are limited by what they can and have to do.
I’ve posted about this before about how Minecraft is the best selling game of all time by a long shot; only GTA 5 even breaks 100 million copies. And bc of this, Mojang doesn’t need to put much into the game to be profitable or take big risks in terms of costs. Pokémon has the same issue. So that’s how you have mods have ten-fold better performance like Sodium and Mojang have worse mod support than small indie games such as Don’t Starve.
Also bc Minecraft is such an iconic and large brand, Mojang can’t really pick a bold and new direction for the game to go in. It’s why people regard vanilla as more of an engine or base than a full game. Exploration? Just download Biomes O’ Plenty or Yang’s Better mods. Bosses? Go play Terraria. Technological progression? Just download a technic mod pack like Tekkit or Create: Above and Beyond. MMORPG? Just play Dungeon Re- I mean Wynncraft.
The point is, Minecraft can’t really go in a new direction without upsetting a large portion of the player base or it’s brand and that’s why Mojang relies on mods and servers to fill that gap. So instead of asking for quantity over quality, let’s just demand for a proper modding API and optimizations. There really is no excuse for those and it would benefit everyone regardless of their style.
I'm going to stop lurking again just for a bit to address this narrowminded and outdated viewpoint I see in many places. This is a silly decision on Mojang's part, but the usual MC player surface level, banal, kneejerk reaction to it has been mostly unhelpful. The paragraph about the pokemon comparison is incoherent. Where is Mojang slacking in quality? Hard to see where that is with the quality of recent updates. Performance? True, to an extent. But that's a reality of all games being more demanding for PCs. They've tried their hardest optimizing, but there is more to it than just asking them to implement Sodium into the game. Want more content? Performance worsens more. Want better performance? Less content.
Worse mod support? This cannot be more incorrect. It's 1 of the most active modding scenes, I am more than familiar with its community upsides and downsides.
As for that "modding API", I can tell you that's also incorrect... because it's an outdated viewpoint. The modding API does exist for Bedrock. It's how people can make addons. You may not like it. I don't like bedrock, but that's reality.
So why don't they make it for Java? Because they are fully aware that whatever they do, the community will do it better: Forge. They are fully aware that the community already has a satisfactory "modding API" and would not want to mess with that
And as a random tangent, I love modded more than vanilla too, but I am past the point of having a superiority complex over vanilla. Dealt with too many people like that. Modded players tend to be a bit silly about it
Lemme clarify a few things. Minecraft is a good game and a lot of people do and should think so too. But it is true that there are a lot of little things holding it back. And it's definitely not known for its polish.
Take for example it's combat. Minecraft barely has attack animations and the combat system is pretty barebones. Unlike others, however, I don't think that 1.9 ruined combat and it was still very much playable. But take something like the Epic Fight Mod. It drastically overhauls every aspect of combat and adds new features while still being easy and fun to use. The attack animations are my favorite because they are so smooth and unique; Endermen now use Kung-Fu instead of walking angrily at you.
But here's the thing; not everyone plays Minecraft for combat and I can imagine others being turned off by the system for being too different. That's completely fair to say so I would also understand why Mojang wouldn't add it even though I personally enjoy the mod better. Mojang could stop updating the game today in terms of content and I would still be content because Minecraft is still a full game in terms of content.
In terms of performance, that doesn't apply though because optimization should always be pursued and makes the game better for everyone. It's not always true that more content decreases performance because there's more to it than that. There are other factors that have nothing to do with content that severely hinder the game's performance. The biggest factor is that Minecraft only runs on a single core. This drastically reduces performance and is the reason why a lot of servers are practically capped at 200 players. SalC1 goes into it a bit more here. It's no secret that Minecraft wasn't initially optimized well; even the devs like Dinnerbone have criticized Notch for his poor coding. It's also why Bedrock generally runs better than Java because they recoded the game entirely in a different coding language.
It's these other factors that were fixed by modders such as the Sodium without changing a single piece of content and improved performance by up to 5-fold. The Distant Horizons mod fixes low rendering distance by simply rendering farther chunks in less detail. This isn't some unique trick either; lots of games such as the Witcher 3 do this. So it's not really that complicated or unfeasible; Mojang right now could hire these modders and fix these issues within a year or less. They've hired modders and rewritten huge parts of the game before for Java and entirely for Bedrock, so I would say it would definitely be worth it.
Forge is better than nothing, but it doesn't solve the issue. It can still take months for mods to update to newer versions of Minecraft, and it's a lot harder for modders to see what needs to be fixed than if they had an API. It's why mods like the Aether still haven't been updated beyond 1.12.2 despite being popular. Mod compatibility with other mods is also still a significant issue that wouldn't be nearly as significant under an API. Especially since other modding platforms like Fabric exist. So if you're playing with multiple mods or a modpack, you have to deal with some mods being compatible only with Forge and others only compatible with Fabric (i.e. Sodium is still incompatible for Fabric). An official modding API would also protect players from unsafe websites.
So my point wasn't that modded Minecraft is necessarily better than vanilla Minecraft because it's legitimate for people to have different preferences and how they want to play the game. What isn't legitimate though are people optimizing the game with a fraction of the resources and time drastically better than Mojang. And is this the end of the world? No, and at the end of the day it's still a decent game. Despite my comparison, I don't think Mojang is cynical or just keeps pumping out the same game with minimal effort like Pokemon or Call of Duty franchises. Nor do I want some Mojang employee to slave away like so many game devs in other studios. I just think they could just improve the performance and make modder's lives easier. That's all. Minecraft wouldn't even need another update.
Sorry for the length of the post, but I just wanted to clear up some misunderstandings (and I got nothing else to do :3).
MC combat is fine, it can be improved- mainly saturation being busted and shields, but the secret is to never ever listen to the pvp community. I hate pvp and its community. These days, I play pve mods in peace. That mod isn't a good example to me, adding animations and bunch of functions does not equate to better to me
I already know all those mods, so I will not address that part of the post
It's the other way around, Sodium is Fabric. Mods being "stuck" on an older version is an issue for those mods, not the mod loader. From what I can see, modding for Java is getting easier. Mods tend to stay behind because the modder gets inactive or for a silly and trivial reason. How would an API help with this? They already have MC's source and Forge. Making something that allows all mods to work on 1 version is a pipedream. A smart modder I know says a Mojang API would not help anything and would likely be something akin to Fabric/bedrock addons. It's not a golden goose, and will likely never exist. Forge is good enough, an official Mojang API would be inferior. I don't think you know what you're talking about, unfortunately. I already told you the modding API does exist: it's the Bedrock addons
My bad, I misspoke. As I said before, an API would help with this by making it easier to see what exactly breaks and making mods break less often with new updates and other mods. Grant it, modders would still have to fix their mods if it broke, but this would be less of an issue. Again with the Aether mod, it's not that the Aether modder is inactive, it's that without an API it's 10 times more difficult to update the mod to newer versions of the game even after years. Antvenom explains in better detail about it. I didn't mention Bedrock because I and other players play Java and because addons can only edit existing content. So you're more limited to what you can change than a mod. That's why added they added an experimental API in 2018 to Bedrock, only to remove it last January.
From the start, I stated that don't like bedrock, because I am already aware of the limitations. I mentioned bedrock because it has the best official API you're going to get. Whatever API they make will never be as good as community-made ones. We already have access to the source code, and have more than enough tools to do stuff like port to other versions.
That video is from 2017, and I doubt that the youtuber knows MC modding any better than some other misunderstood people I've seen. Did you read my post? You are again spewing incorrect info. Have the Aether devs specified that an API would make it 10x easier? 1. One of Aether's main devs is busy working on MC itself now, and 2. Aether should not be used as an example, its devs have been occupied with Aether 2, which is effective vaporware. Not a valid example. Again, porting issues aren't a modloader problem, but only a problem with individual mods. Doesn't help that Aether is a standard, decade-old mod.
A massive mod called AoA has been able to port in relatively short times because it has competent code: the port from 1.15-1.16 took a few months despite huge changes to vanilla stuff. The porting of the hundreds of mobs/items only took a couple weeks, while worldgen/structues- which needed to be modernized anyway, took up most of the time. But now that they're internally modernized, porting will take even less time unless Mojang makes internal changes again, which are rare.
This is the effect of having competent code. Most modern mods, including a newer large dimension mod like Blue skies have an easy time porting these days. Twilight forest also seems to not have much difficulty porting because of its more modernized(?) code. There are extreme cases like Betweenlands still being in 1.12, but that's because they never considered porting a priority from the start when coding, and I doubt a magic API would help with something so complex and foreign in the first place.
Meanwhile, you seem to still be stuck on the outdated and frankly false idea that the modding API is this magical thing that will fix everything, when 1. is effectively unnecessary at this point unless you're talking about old/poorly coded mods who should be solving their own problems anyway, and 2. already exists in Bedrock, and will simply never be better compared to community alternatives. Aether being used as an example isn't a good sign, it's a supbar mod by today's standards and everything about Aether 2 is pretty silly in the long run. I repeated myself on purpose
I would advise doing actual research on it, rather than old baseless claims. If you want, I can point you to the modder that has enlightened me on the farce that is this official modding API. They are helpful all around the modded community and is a great coder, so I would say that their claims have weight
I would then. I apologize if I misunderstood; I just haven't heard of this modder you're talking about.
The message was sent. Have a nice day !