Info Item Team Update Thread - Latest Updates, Rebalance Changelogs & More - Update 28/6

Screams air defense to me

I guess maybe?

I'll give brainwash, resistance, breakdown, and (maybe lunar spine and caesura?)

Point stands though, many of those items are interesting specifically because they break archetypes

EDIT: realized that resistance should have thunder def if it really was to name

 

Is this thread the correct place to ask questions about item design?

Anyway I was thinking more about the Silkweb changes and about the idea of raw damage in general and just wondering raw damage as a whole

For one, it affects different classes differently. Mage is arguably the best class overall for raw damage (weakest base melee attack, highest single hit spell multiplier) and archer the worst (strongest and lowest damage potential, arguably, melee attack, lowest single hit spell mult). Maybe this is intentional but it comes off as kinda weird to me.

Second, its the asymptotically speaking weakest kind of boost in the end game. Intel, mana regen/steal, and tier stacking are all multiplicative boosts (@Lament ), meaning that adding more of said stats increases damage output exponentially. Simpler %boosts are linear boosts based off your weapon's base damage; with high enough base damage, these can stack up. However, raw boosts don't care about your weapon's base stats; any weapon from catac to depressing daggers will get the same boost from raw damage boost. They're strangely better for use with weak weapons that stronger weapons (provided appropriate %boost gear is available).

Honestly raw spell seems pretty balanced as it is right now (+300 raw is usually ~ 20-30% dmg boost on end game gear, depending on class), but raw melee just can't compete with tierstacking, even ignoring mythic items.

EDIT: As I'm typing this I'm realizing that raw damage is an excellent way to close the gap between non-mythics and mythics so maybe that was the intent of raw damage?

idk I guess I just want to understand the reasoning behind designing items with raw vs %boosts and the such

 

A correction, mana and intel are only multiplicative with each other, not with themselves.

(Warning - Number Spam Ahead)
I also have my own complaint about mana regen and how it is given to items. Base mana regen is 5/4, meaning that an item like Aquarius increases mana production by as much as 140%, which means that on its own it can amplify damage from spells by that amount. How much of your damage is formed from spells? Let's use arrow bomb as an example. 250% spell damage for 6.4 seconds of mana, meaning that before id boosts come into play, using solely arrow bomb will give about 39% of your melee dps. However, intelligence reduces its mana cost, to a minimum of 2. If you had 129 int, suddenly your damage output from arrow bomb becomes 156% that of melee dps. (actually slightly less because of spell costs increasing from spam). Add mana regen/mana steal to the mix, and we have builds that are freakishly strong.

That is why I think that mana on items should be more carefully used. Items like memento and capricorn which not only greatly increase the amount of spells that can be cast, but also increase the spell damage itself, are inherently too powerful. Just as well, placing 1 mana on an item as if it were a minor boost leads to spell builds dominating because mana regen, which is so abundant, has such a profound effect on intelligence based builds.

 

For the first point, raw damages between classes actually have fewer differences overall than people made it be. Mage have 400% spell multiplier on meteor and an extra 100% for the burning ground, if you only look at the numbers then sure it is impressive, but for a whole meteor to land and then the burning ground to proc, it takes like what, 2-3 seconds in total, discounting the burning ground it is still a solid second or two. Meanwhile, Warrior's uppercut does 375% spell multi with slightly less time to cast the whole spell, both Assassin and Archer have a smaller spell multiplier but their spells are much more spammable... Note that you need to wait for the spell to finish completely to recast another spell otherwise, the spells will get cut off midway (for longer spells like meteors and uppercut) so its not smashing buttons, but it IS smashing buttons for spins and bombs.

Secondly, raw damages are indeed designed to close gaps between weapon type, this allows for more dynamic build types and interactions instead of "use the best high-level gear of choice". You pointed out raw melee is really off balance compared to raw spell, which is entirely accurate. If you check out the "latest update" section of the main thread, you will see a small explanation about why raw values have been wrong ever since gavel, and how the IM team has been slowly fixing them one by one, started with raw spell a year ago, health regen some time ago and we have completed poison, lifesteal and moving in with raw melee at last.

 

So any net mana (thats how we call it I guess) increases damage by breaking damage cap by increasing frequency between attacks, kinda like +tier. Depends on spells, classes, and the amount of intel invested, the figures vary by a lot. So it's not as simple as transferring it to %damage and then do maths with that percentage (I know that's not entirely what you are doing but this is more so for anyone else reading this).

Intelligence dominance in the meta builds have always been something that have been plaguing everyone that cares about items in general, and you're not entirely wrong, but with a little bit of something missing. If we limit mana supply on items it would create an inverse effect where items with mana will actually get used more, so the other way to do it would be making mana more accessible, which you can see in some of the newer design items like Unravel, Conduit of Spirit and Gaze from the Snowbank, none of them has anything to do with intel has have mana effect. That's just something the IMs have been experimenting for a while but we're not entirely sure how it would swing the meta, if at all, added the fact that item crafting will very soon be a thing where people can customise their builds with mana and other stuff, it is hard to "predict" how everything will turn out for the meta and intel dominance.

Not entirely sure if I threw in the right ideas on the subject, but oh well, that's my two cents.

 

I really like the idea of no mana regen being used on gear without intel requirements :)
Good to know that raw melee is getting another rework, so maybe we will see some air earth in the near future (soontm?)

Issue with crafting: The vast majority of mana regen is slapped together with intel req still (except for eye of the beast and maybe lost spirit, but those are limited to accessories and bows/wands respectively). Not sure if that was intentional or not, or maybe theres some secret brainwash-ifying item that hasn't been discovered yet

Really love the design on the new dungeon rewards in general, thanks again :)

 

Ah yeh, earth/air and earth/fire will see some good reworks hopefully coming in the near future if it doesn't fall off the to-do list :( We definitely want mana regen to be more accessible with crafting but don't expect it to be everywhere tho. Ingredients in general will see a fair bit of rebalancing when we get around to them.

 

No mana regen on gear without Int requirements just means Brainwash is next to useless.

 

Thanks for replying! It's definitely true that the inclusion of mana regen on non-intel items has resulted in an increase of diversity of viable elements. However, I think that there are many flaws within the game that are exacerbated by this decision, that my proposal addresses. I've thought about this more, and I feel that if mana regen were changed as my post above details, players would not seek more mana regen, but more intelligence. Intelligence, just as well as mana regen, increases the capacity to use spells, but players would not have to sacrifice other ids to have that extra spellcasting power. This would make intel the most valuable stat once again, but I'll touch on that again later.

Spells are a great source of damage, but they also have other effects. Being able to spam them trivializes the game with effects such as constant stun and knockback, and by adding mana regen to items any build is encouraged to do so. Build diversity is reduced because no build is quite as powerful offensively and defensively. I have played through the game a few times with and without intelligence/mana based builds and I must say that the times I chose not to use them, I enjoyed the game much more using unique playstyles, and the difficulty seemed more as it should be. I'm sorry if this isn't the right place for this, but I feel that if mana regen on items is more controlled, and perhaps a penalty for using multiple spells in a row is added (reducing power of higher int builds), that it could fix the major issues with difficulty and build diversity at once.

 

My brainwash warrior would like a word with you ;)
No intel makes PVP next to impossible but makes a more than viable PVE spell build.

 

What's your build?

 

preach it!

now give paradox its 2 mr 2 ms back tnx

 

Well if we're talking about spell effects or how intelligence and mana regen fundamentally functions in their effects on the overall game balance, the IMs unfortunately do not have control over that part of the system... Our jurisdiction has more to do with statistic balancing for items, ingredients and other calculation based mechanics, while we also sometimes give ideas for the larger mechanic problems as you mentioned in mana and spells, we don't have the authority to change them.

But yeh, I do agree that the way spell and mana regen is currently designed and interacted is a very large cause in making how things are currently are, which is, like you said, probably can't be solved by what the IMs are trying to do with making net mana more accessible, but instead would benefit more from a systematic change. That said, there might also be the possibility that something obvious that the IMs can do but we're missing if anyone can think of anything, let us know. You have an excellent point of view on the topic, tho for now maybe we can only hope together that something, not sure what, how, or when, is to be done with that part of the problem :<

 

Look at you all knowing how the intricacies of the item system work! I just slap whatever works on my character and hope for the best tbh. It'd be nice if there was some in-game tutorial on what each ID is and how they work with other IDs, but I know the CT is busy enough as is these days...

(Also, such a quest would probably break the 4th wall but since when has that been an issue)

 

i think it would be cool if you guys made a list of people who would like to get mentioned (for example) when new changes are announced

 

i used it in a build too

 

I'm very fine thank you! How are you?

 

When are we going to talk about the problem with agility? It's something everyone seems to acknowledge, and yet there is no nerf in sight. Currently agility is significantly better than defense, it's skill point effects are better than defense by a wide margin, because of the defense skill point inability to cancel out elemental damage in any way, shape, or form makes agility much more preferable element. Assuming you have 115 in your respective stat, which isn't too far fetched, as most builds that focus around the fire or air element will most likely have, mathematically I'm almost certain that agility will always win over defense, the ability to dodge 100% of all damage 70% amount of the time, will always overrule the ability to negate only 70% of neutral damage 100% of the time. Although I'm using an extreme example, the basic rule is clear, agility is a much better defensive skill point than defense, even at lower percents, like 50 which is very easy to achieve, the rule still applies. Because of this rule many builds that don't utilize armor that needs investment in the defense SP, you'll see agility used as the defensive stat.

So in conclusion I think we need either an agility nerf, or a defense buff. Either proposition will need much rebalancing, which is why I would suggest the latter, as I think it would require the lesser time to put out. Defense should be buffed, it doesn't have to be major, I'm not talking about changing it to mitigate all damages, but maybe amplify your elemental defenses by some amount as well as neutral defenses, of course it would have to be smaller than the amount that alleviates neutral but it has to be large enough to have an effect or else the buff is useless. I was thinking it could be around half the percentage of the current defense stat would be reduced for elements, this would make big investment warrant a really fine boost, while smaller investment still offers reward. Maybe this idea would be too overpowered I'm not really sure, I can't test for myself in a server like the GM's and Item team can, I wouldn't know, but making debate for a buff is all I'm aiming for.

 

There's a thread in General Suggestions by @JaydonTheWarrior that deals with this (link).