Discussion in 'Wynncraft' started by Selvut283, Jun 2, 2020.
They actually do. Visually they don't, but the compass actually shows degredation.
well damn, I don't think less than -4% loot bonus is gonna be viable for me.
Well great yet another thing supposedly fixed a year ago not fixed .-.
Give collapse more reliable damage, the weapon sucks at being a hybread
it sucks at being viable lmfao. I mean for real its pathetic and if i hear "collapse is balanced" one more time I'm gonna die inside.
Ill just go into detail on why its bad.
Firstly warrior problems make rng really a bad option for warrior. Archer hitting 2-20k bombs isn't bad because you are far enough away that a 2k won't lead to you getting killed. This isn't the case on warrior as rolling a 2k upper can fuck you over in a fight in pvp or pve.
Secondly the -defenses really hurt given it is on a TANK CLASS. Collapse should be doing alot more damage with that -defense tradeoff than it really does.
Thirdly is this weapon spell or melee? Because the damage for melee is utter trash and the damage for spell is good on paper but utterly shit ingame. I get the massive melee ID but rainbow lacks so much support right now it basically is the only melee boosting id it has.
Fourthly collapse is grossly outclassed by hero, idol, and thrunda, and hell even alka in spell. and in melee alka and apoc outclass it in dps and sustainability by a massive amount. On top of that hybrid rainbow items basically don't exist meaning you can't really build a strong hybrid collapse but rather a pure melee build (which sucks) or a pure spell build (which also sucks)
so yeah. buff the damn thing.
ok i'm not gonna try and disprove rng being bad for warrior even though i completely disagree
instead, i'm going to prove with even more facts and logic as to why rng isn't even an issue with collapse, even less so than what many already might think
average damage of a collapse uppercut with 3 E6s
the average maximum would be 21562, so the average maximum for each element would be about 4312
i then went to this website here to choose random numbers
and ran it a shit ton of times (100 times for 20 different totals)
each row simulates 1 single uppercut, so you can think of it like 20 uppercuts
Spoiler: the results
uppercut 1: 10795 damage
uppercut 2: 15037 damage
uppercut 3: 6066 damage
uppercut 4: 11672 damage
uppercut 5: 15831 damage
uppercut 6: 7595 damage
uppercut 7: 11612 damage
uppercut 8: 14601 damage
uppercut 9: 10541 damage
uppercut 10: 9729 damage
uppercut 11: 4764 damage
uppercut 12: 10887 damage
uppercut 13: 16013 damage
uppercut 14: 15931 damage
uppercut 15: 5541 damage
uppercut 16: 7493 damage
uppercut 17: 9932 damage
uppercut 18: 8571 damage
uppercut 19: 12317 damage
uppercut 20: 15682 damage
all things considered, collapse is surprisingly stable in terms of damage, and this doesn't even consider the fact that uppercut consists of 3 different hits. this means that it's even more stable than what these results suggest.
the main issue with collapse comes down to warrior and mana steal. the issue with this is that all of its spells easily have more range than its melee even going as far as knocking mobs that would normally be in melee range out of melee range. a suggestion i see often is increasing the melee range of warrior, which would actually deal with this issue quite nicely. i'd far prefer this over buffing a weapon that would otherwise be fine.
the issue with the -rainbow def% isn't as bad as it seems in actual gameplay due to collapse naturally having 40 defense and agi regardless of the build. realistically, this would only make around a difference of 300 damage or so at maximum in a well-balanced build.
For further info, statistically a Collapse build with, say, 15k uppercuts, has something like a 99% chance to be between 10k and 20k uppercuts. This is a more favorable distribution than e.g. Thrundacrack.
Yeah...I am aware of that. However for some reason this doesn't work in game. Me and many others who use collapse in game do not get these numbers for some reason or another. That's the very weird part. Go out and try collapse and record the damages and for some reason the numbers are far lower. On top of that also elemental defenses and weakness in pve and pvp also really fuck with it in a generally bad way but that's not the biggest problem. Have you by chance used collapse in game? Cause it is to me (and many others) one of those weird items that on paper looks so fucking powerful but ingame is utter trash.
Increase collapse's damage and make it very slow/super slow and give it life steal it will make the mana steal/ls more viable and a better hybread weapon.
A solid collapse build can easily hit 23-27k uppers (depending on if you want to spec into hp/damage or spell cost) (see example here: https://wynndata.tk/s/7x0ql1)
Because of this i don’t think a damage buff is neccessary and neither is an attack speed reduction since you have stuff like tenuto and atlas available.
I do think some ls would be really nice for collapse, tho idk if that’d be too close to nulli. Raw hpr could work too.
I find hybread collapse really hard to use, is more reliable to just spam spell. The build you made is too glassy for warrior with little to no sustain, and that's just a warrior problem not a collapse problem. But having hpr and/or life steal would really help out. Also having a lower attack speed is nice because it will pierce the elemental defense more, hence making the weapon more reliable.
is that actually how it works
i thought it depended on base damage (slower attack speed implicitly helps because slower = higher base)
well yes, elemental defenses are additive so a slower base speed (which should have higher base damage) would be more effective. What you said is correct but I think he meant that anyways because higher base is implied with lower speeds.
I don’t find this build too glassy, especially since the 40 def and agility spike up the ehp a lot. Though u
yet again, I do agree collapse could get some sustain buff.
as requested i have tried out collapse ingame
to be honest, i don't really see the issue with it. it seems easily consistent and damaging enough to deal with basically everything here, and has quite nice bulk due to defensive sp.
the only qualm i have with it is the mana steal (which i do admit i'm used to using), and even then it's more of a warrior problem rather than collapse
People have beaten this dungeon with no armor on
this doesn't change the fact that through my own experience i'm not really seeing or noticing any of the common issues people have with collapse other than mana steal on warrior. the damage is fine, the sustain is fine, and it's not inconsistent at all.
As though that in of itself doesn't take massive amounts of skill and luck? Just because it's possible to do doesn't mean that his point is suddenly invalid. We've heard complaints about Collapse before, and while we're keeping an eye on it, so far I don't really see anything wrong with it.
The damage is fine, the sustain (health) is none existence. I'm suggesting a change to a lower attack tier so the damage is more consistent with enemies with high elemental defense. Also making the mana steal more valuable.
Warrior sucks and rainbow sucks, you guys aren't fixing the root of the problem. I understand the cautious approach to not trying to bring the old rainbow meta back but still, the current state of rainbow is just pathetic.
Im pretty sure they have plans to fix rainbow as a whole