Info Item Team Thread - Item/ingredient/major Id Changes, Updates & More

Also worth pointing out too both of you that I'm replying to this qoute, so.

That being said, I don't disagree with Sevlut, it is, if not basically immortality, litteral immortality.

 

I guess people have fun in different ways :P

Didn’t someone die on an hich class with over one million ehp

 

Running logs have been filed away into their respective changelogs.

 

Again, immortality is mainly gotten through health regen.

 

I don't see how this in any way disproves what I said, or is relevant in any way, really.

 

ONE. MILLION. EHP.

 

Yes, and? First of all, a person dying once doesn't prove anything. I really don't understand what you're trying to prove. Since your original post is advocating for buffing tanks, I'll assume that you're trying to argue that. If that's the case, even if tanks are buffed, a build with one million EHP will still be just as effective. Sure the same build will now have more EHP and it will be easier to reach one million EHP, but since the only thing your post mentions is the figure of one million EHP. You haven't specified a build, so there's not really much to go off in terms of arguing for a buff of tanks. In fact, you're referring to a HICH class, which can only use crafted items and is as such largely irrelevant to the discussion of item balance.

If you mean to say that one million EHP is such a high number, and yet still not enough to tackle raids - using one person dying once as an example is really poor reasoning, but I digress - then you're proving that what I've said is true. If even builds that are deliberately made insanely tanky can't handle the damage of raids, that tells you that raid damage is the problem, not that tanks need to be buffed. If these hyper tanks didn't exist, there wouldn't be a need to balance raids around such ridiculous amounts of EHP. The whole reason why raids need to deal such high damage is because they need to be able to kill even the tankiest builds but has inadvertently sacrificed all other types of build as collateral damage. While this approach has evidently worked to nerf tank builds, the game is currently designed in such a way that making any attempts to nerf them screws over non-tank builds.

Besides, if a build with

cannot reasonably tackle raids then what hope is there for builds with a measly ten thousand EHP, or even twenty or thirty thousand?

TL;DR: Raid damage needs to be high in order to deal with extremely tanky builds, which also makes using less tanky builds more difficult. Buffing tank builds is not an option as raids will have to be rebalanced to accommodate even larger amounts of EHP, screwing over non-tank builds even more. Nerfing raid damage is also not an option, as it unnecessarily buffs tanks, a playstyle that is already very powerful and by far the most consistent.

TL;DR;TL;DR: Buff tank build (not necessary since they're already way too good) -> Raid damage needs to be balanced around a larger range of EHP -> Low EHP builds get screwed

I'd of course like to point out that think are more complicated than "High EHP builds exist -> Raids need to deal higher damage", but Wynncraft doesn't have the mechanisms to adequately punish high EHP builds to the same degree it does low EHP builds. The only thing that has historically worked is HPR on bosses, but resorting to things like that is bad game design and makes the game less fun, on top of not really solving the problem. Wynncraft combat either needs to change radically or the problem needs to be fixed with the tools that we have. The only way to do that currently is to nerf tank builds, so raid damage can in turn be scaled down and raids can be made more fair across all types of builds.

TL;DR;TL;DR;Tl;DR: Raid damage is so ridiculous it can kill builds with one million EHP. If (nearly) immortal builds didn't exist, then raids wouldn't need to deal such high damage. You've just proven my point.

Anyway the formulation and formatting of this post is a mess, but I'm too lazy to fix it, so I'm just going to stop writing now.

 

Well at least we agree that current raids are absolutely busted.

Going by your suggestion, nerfing both tanks and raids accordingly will end up being a weird net buff for tanks since raids were the only real threat to tanks anyway.

The only thing going for tanks is immense survivability, so if you only nerf tanks alone you’d be going from immense to just above average survivability, and since other archetypes bring far more than just extra tankiness to the table, while being able to survive decently, there’d be no reason to use tanks because you’d be nothing more than situational and lose out on a lot.

In sum, tanks have to be absurd in survivability compared to other archetypes, « better survivability » just ain’t enough for people’s interest. They’d take one look at the benefits of other archetypes and kiss tank goodbye.

And I too am getting tired of talking about this, so let’s stop before this turns into mineplex’s « discussions » :/

 

Your arguments are in conflict with each other.

If nerfing tank builds on their own will make them to weak and nerfing both tank builds and raid damage "accordingly" (I'm going to assume you mean in roughly equal proportion, "accordingly" would by definition mean that my proposal would work) would leave tank builds with a net buff, then surely there must be some point at which the proportion between the EHP nerf and the raid damage nerf where the effectiveness of tank builds would remain largely unchanged.

You can't just dismiss the idea based on the assumption that it will be too severe, since no such severity has been specified.

"If you raise taxes too much, then people won't have any money to spend" isn't an argument against raising taxes.

Likewise, "if you nerf tanks you'll be going from immense to just above average survivability" isn't an argument against nerfing tanks.

This is however, completely beside the point, since the whole point isn't to even to make tanks better or worse, but to prevent them from skewing the balance of the game any further. There are more shades of grey than "Easily the most consistent way to beat raids and raid difficulty needing to be completely balanced around tank builds" and "There is no reason to use tank builds anymore since you don't have anything except survivability for you". If tanks have to take a bullet to make raid balance more reasonable for all other builds.

The thing is, even if you don't think tanks are absolutely busted right now like I do, even if you think they're decent, or even terrible at this point, that doesn't change that raids have to be very specifically balanced to counter extremely high EHP, which leaves raids inappropriately balanced for other types of build.

We may have fed the loudest chick, but the rest of the brood is hungry too.

 

Mage heal should be nerfed and defense points should be nerfed too. Maximium of 25x ehp difference is just insane. The fact you can refill all of it in just 3 seconds is more insane.

They're so powerful that most bosses has basically became 'what can cram as much damage as possible in a second' to get difficulty.

Imo defense/agility should cap at 50%, but increase base defense of all class by 20%. Heal shouldn't have effect until previous heal's dot heal ends.

 

enemy damage. you want to decrease enemy damage.

 

What I’m getting from this is tank specifically needs to be absolutely demolished for the greater good

And to be fair all other types of builds don’t solely focus on survivability, they focus on other things like spell damage, mobility, melee damage etc, and considering raids are supposed to be dummy hard, it makes sense why they could be one shot.

Tank is able to barely survive this because, well, it’s a tank. It’s supposed to at least do that.

Just to clear things up, I know why raids are supposed to be hard, but I do vouch for raids being nerfed for other builds to feel less threatened by one shot wonders, and I believe even with raid damage nerfed, tanks will still have a hard enough time

Spoiler

And jaydon don’t be showing me you facetanking colossus’ arrow storm you and your guardian are built different

If you still have a problem, just remember that the raid buffs are the thing that carries tanks to immortality in raids. Just design those to not make a tank anymore tanky, it’s already discount doomguy.

It should compensate for the players’ builds weaknesses instead, like more damage and mobility for tank, tankiness for glass cannons, and so on.

A suggestion as to how it could be made is to base the buffs off of skill points, determining if your tanky enough, deal enough damage, quick enough, and bringing appropriate buffs to not make already good things about the build even better.

And finally,

We’re both good logical men who have flavourful opinions, best to leave it at that.

 

I don't think it is a problem that all-in tanks are nigh-unkillable or that they are able to beat bosses. I think the time taken is the much more relevant tradeoff here.

 

Stop lying about my argument. I wouldn't shed a tear if tanks were nerfed into the ground, but my post specifically says that tank EHP and raid damage can be nerfed in tandem with each other in order to leave tank builds just as effective for raids. You're just ignoring it.

It's right there.

Don't you think I know this? There would be literally no reason not to use a tank builds otherwise. The problem is the latter part. "Raids are supposed to be hard and that's why one shots make sense" is just a way to rationalise poor game design. If tanks weren't so ridiculous then we could more easily balance raid difficulty because damage need not be as high. It would allow for more creative and skill-based difficulty than "just don't make a mistake/have a lag spike/get screwed by RNG" and allow a wider range of builds to be viable. At the end of the day, if you're dead you can't deal melee damage or use spells. Right now, while yes other metrics than just EHP matter, the relation between EHP and survival chance is the most apparent. The idea that doing more damage makes the boss fight shorter allows you to make fewer mistakes isn't allowed to come to fruition, because the outcome of a raid is on the one hand determined by one small moment if you're a glassy build and on the other hand not really dependent on how long you take with a tanky build, since those aren't prone to one shots and can recover from their mistakes.

All of your posts seem to assume that my goal is the destruction of tanks builds and while yes, I would like to see that happen, that's not what my posts are arguing in favour of. The entire crux of the matter is that I want tank builds to be nerfed so raid damage can be nerfed with them. This doesn't necessitate that tanks become any less effective. While I would like to see that, that's not at the heart of my point. Sure, what I'm proposing is a change that will help non-tank builds by making them more effective. This will of course make more glassy builds more appealing to use, perhaps they would even overshadow tank builds, but if you accept the two givens that 1: tank EHP and raid damage can be changed in such a way that tanks will be just as effective and 2: tanks are effective enough right now, then tanks will be able to "at least do that".

What you're basically suggesting is basically something that puts tanky and glassy builds closer together in terms of EHP (and damage), which is coincidentally exactly what everything I have proposed would do. The difference is that relying on raid buffs instead of a systematic change to do it is less elegant, more reliant on RNG and more reliant on the specific raid you're in, so it's more so taking the effort to compensate for the problem when it shows up instead of changing the system to allow for game design that doesn't have the problem in the first place.

Besides, if you agree that raid damage is too high, I have no clue how you came to the conclusion that just buffing tank builds would solve the problem. You even said to change raid buffs so as not to make tanks any tankier. Have you gone back on your original statement?
Also let me just say that Doomguy is a really bad analogy here since in the actual DOOM games, even if you're at 200% health and armour, enemies still completely melt you.

If that's what you think, put your money where your mouth is. If you intend to stop this discussion, then don't make a post responding to my arguments, or rather: what you think my arguments are. I'm up to argue until the cows come home. Similarly, if you actually want to stop, I'll stop, but don't bring up new information and expect me not to respond to it.

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While I, for one, do think it's a problem, but even putting that aside, I don't think the survival chance-time tradeoff for tanks is nearly as bad as it should be if you want it to be relevant. Keep in mind that when you do a raid, you're not just doing the boss, you're doing the entire raid. The same applies for EO, or any other piece of content that is only partially dependent on dealing damage. There is a certain amount of time the raid is going to take either way, regardless of your DPS. Many raid objectives even require you to wait around a whole lot. If you're already ten minutes into a raid, spending extra time on the boss instead of dying and wasting a lot of time can be appealing, even if the tradeoff would be better for glassy builds if you consider the boss in isolation.

 

I’m just trying to put an end to this argument that’s fine for both sides, and my patience is thinning.

At the end of the day this is all what we think, nothing concrete. Nobody’s right, nobody’s wrong.

So can we please start talking about ITEMS in the ITEM THREAD again?

 

What if raid bosses dealt a 50/50 spread of raw damage and % of max hp damage. It would make tank builds considerably weaker in raids but it wouldn't make other builds die instantly. Tanking still gives more survivability but it's not as insane as 25x at max. that's my 2 cents

Oh and as for agility, make some attacks AoE attacks that ignore dodge chance but can be avoided as long as you pay attention. So basically telegraphed attacks that you can't dodge with agi

 

for what its worth "pure damage" attacks like PZ tick, wretch explosion etc already ignore agility

 

I'd like to add that the "tank" archetype relies on WFA usually to deal some damage, which has been nerfed since 1.20.3.

If people really worry about stuff being to tanky, I'd worry more about the available buffs in raids, potions or other sources. You can get 71 Defence and 6k hp from a potion, on top of those defensive raid buffs.

Try to do a raid without defensive buffs and a spam heal mage and it will be a very different playthrough, even on a tank.

 

buff az and archangel. what could be done is to make it like a niche use such as pure's ridiculous spell dmg% and its 3x meteor major id

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ok so i definitely have not seen a video of somebody facetanking collosus arrow storm