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Item Researches And Possible Problem For Archer Mythics.

Discussion in 'Wynncraft' started by motoki1, Mar 28, 2017.

?

Do you think this is a problem?

  1. Yes, Archer mythics gotta get buffed.

    80.5%
  2. No, they're already fine as they are.

    18.3%
  3. Yes, but balance (nerf) other mythics.

    1.2%
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  1. motoki1

    motoki1 The Damage Calculation Scientist HERO

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    An original idea from @Nyam, this thread.
    Also from Salted, from this leak.

    Hello Wynncrafters!
    This time, I might have brought a big problem. This is going to be boring number researches for some people, so if you don't want to read those, I suggest you to leave this thread.

    So, over a year ago, Salted decided to do some serious leak about the item making and balancing.
    https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/the-making-of-the-item-system.106300/
    This system seems to be the base of every item-balancing fact that currently exists, so why not do some further researches?

    Apparently I have no life as well, so I did some mythic comparison.
    [​IMG]
    Well yea, this is hard to see so here's the original spreadsheet. (Google Spreadsheet) https://goo.gl/Tuv1nJ


    Weapon's Skill Point Requires, Damage Boost IDs, and Powders are taken into account here. Remember this is without with any builds, nor any other special IDs such as Lifesteal, Mana Regen, Walk Speed are not taken into account.
    This compares the mythic DPS with SP Reqs, Damage IDs and Powders, to the ideal DPS of the level on that class' mythic, which was taken from the Great Spreadsheet leak.
    Even if the weapon is rated bad because of the damage, it could still have its own advantage. Let's take Apocalypse as an example, the damage is pretty bad, but it has pretty good Exploding/Lifesteal ID, so your survivability will go up crazily.
    Wait. Most of the archer mythics are rated bad? For example, Ignis has its own advantage; Health and Regen, but the damage is still bad.
    You might have once noticed, that Archer does not do crazy damage per hit with their mythic weapons. For example, while Fatal, Thrundacrack, Cataclysm are inflicting 20k damage per hit easily, none of Archer mythic weapons does not seem to be reaching any near of those.
    To answer this question, first thing I could think of was that Archer has crazy long attack range compared to other classes. While other classes have to get closer to the enemy to damage them with their main spells, Archer doesn't have to. They can snipe from far away, without taking any hits from the enemy.

    Okay, that makes sense. But the next thing that confused me was this.
    [​IMG]
    We have to thank to @Nyam for making this possible, she collected every DPS data of the weapons. (Without SP/IDs, though)
    Well, this is still an useful data. With the data of the Great Spreadsheet of Knowledge that Salted leaked one year ago, I could see the items are pretty well-balanced, and as the tier goes up, the damage goes up as well. The balancing fact is well-thought. Yeah.
    So here's what I'm seeing with level 100 data.
    Normal: 160%
    Unique: 200%
    Rare: 225%
    Legendary: 270%
    Mythic: 420%

    Wait. Did you notice that? In the right down corner of the picture, it shows Archer mythic weapons have around 284% damage of the base, while other classes' mythic weapons have around 420%.
    Literally unplayable.

    Ok, I was kinda overestimating it. The reason why other classes than Archer had around 420% is, because I just took the highest damage weapon; Earth/Thunder mythics for comparison. Without those high base damage mythics; in other words, regard them as outliers, the comparison would be like this.
    [​IMG]
    I can now see Mythic weapons other than Archer's are around 320% damage of the base. Wait, Archer's still 284%? It eased the problem, though.
    If you want to see the full mythic comparison, here's the full sheet of Raw DPS comparison. We can see Earth/Thunder mythics tend to have higher DPS, except Archer's Grandmother.
    [​IMG]

    Anyway, even if I try to explain this for the reason I wrote upper there, it doesn't solve the problem. It's because even though other Archer weapons (Normal/Unique/Rare/Legendary) are balanced compared to other classes' ones, only Mythics are not.
    Also simply looking into the data, Legendary and Mythic items of Archer are pretty much the same, there's almost no difference in term of the pure damage. (Of course, other Special IDs are still good.)

    This should have been a major problem. Almost everyone uses Mythic weapons as their end-game weapon, and only Archer ones are bad compared to other tiers/classes.
    So, is Archer a bad class? Honestly I have no idea. It's still viable because of the attack range? But what about comparing their Legendary/Mythic items? Why are Archer mythic damage outstandingly bad?
    Also lastly, thank you for reading/scrolling this wall of texts.

    Let the debate begin.

    -------------------------------------------

    Salted's reply, Mar 29, 2017
    So basically he denied what I suggested in this thread at all.
    "Mythics aren't necessarily designed only to deal massive amount of damage. I see them more like legendaries with a big personality."
    "Sometimes we try to balance things out by removing damage/health/defense for better IDs, which is why mythic bows are strangely all lower in DPS."

    So he tried to say, Mythic bows' advantages are their special IDs, such as Walk Speed of Stratiformis, Ignis' high Health and Regen, and so on.
    The exceptions are probably Az and Freedom, Az's advantage is good damage despite of its level, in fact it does inflict really good amount of damage. Freedom is also the same, it has rainbow damage to counter every weaknesses/defense of the enemies, making it being able to deal some constant damage to every single of enemies.

    Some of the mythics are designed to deal massive amount of damage compared to other weapons such as Legendaries, and they're mostly Earth and Thunder based mythics.
    The other mythics, which are mostly Water, Fire and Air based, usually have special IDs as their own advantages. To take some examples, Apocalypse is really bad in term of damage as a mythic weapon, but it has great Lifesteal and Exploding IDs.

    It may be, or may not be perfect every time, balancing the strength of the damage and IDs. We indeed have very unique, amazing Mythic personalities, but I believe sometimes they have to be re-considered by the community, who are actually using the weapons and gears. A good example right now could be Grandmother, while it does good amount of damage, the user has to negate the negative health regen which Grandmother has. This should be good enough reason to make Grandmother have much more base damage than other Legendary/Mythic weapons, right?

    What I wanted to suggest you is, the Damage-ID balance fact needs to be kept discussing all the time.

    That's pretty much the all here, again, thanks for reading.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
  2. Yuno F Gasai

    Yuno F Gasai Forum God, FW

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    can you dumb it down for me?
     
  3. motoki1

    motoki1 The Damage Calculation Scientist HERO

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    Buff Archer Mythic.
     
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  4. dead zeffe

    dead zeffe Guest

    rip my freedom :C
     
  5. BMW

    BMW Cows. VIP+

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    Well as you said it might be working like this because archer is ranged and doesn't need to be close to the enemy to deal damage, but IMO, the damage should be buffed for also a different reason: because the archer is the only character that does not deal AoE damage (a.k.a you can only hit one target(not talking about spells)) so I'm completely agreed with you, giving them mythics more damage would be closer to balance between mythics and their value maybe (well still archer mythics are rip off in a way)
     
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  6. YYGAYMER

    YYGAYMER reeeee FW FW HIC Master HERO Featured Wynncraftian

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    .-.
    YESS BUFF GRANNY
    Even it is able to solo Qira... that was the dumb fight

    Imo, IN MY DAMN OPINION, it is worse than the assassin "on this meta"
     
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  7. aayl

    aayl Famous Adventurer

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    buff assassin

    A really well formated thread! I liked how you presented the data in informative spreadsheets and took the time to explain thoroughly.
    Make Archer Great Again
     
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  8. valvoid

    valvoid Build/CMD Hybrid HERO

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    #buffarchermythics

    Nice thread! I agree ;)
     
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  9. motoki1

    motoki1 The Damage Calculation Scientist HERO

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    Hmm, that explains why Archer has the highest base damage. And maybe the spell damage are balanced by the Spell Multiplier for every classes, different from Melee.
    mhm maybe... or maybe not.
    The class' strength really depends on player skills, how long they have been playing the class.
    To talk about the Spell balance between classes, it would be another whole discussion different from this one.
    But yea, Spell balance needs to be discussed I guess. Some says 'Mage's meteor too op' or 'Nerf Mage', and 'Buff Assassin'. We need some solid explanations for those.
     
  10. Psychomentalist

    Psychomentalist Time is not on my side HERO

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    For those who never wield a single mythic :

    [​IMG]
    small credit to @captainganon who made this pic.
     
  11. bloww

    bloww Shoutbox Fancam Account HERO

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    ignis is supposed to be a tank mythic I guess
    spring is for spell spam
    strati is strati

    buff freedom and gma
     
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  12. motoki1

    motoki1 The Damage Calculation Scientist HERO

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    Compare with Guardian and see what Ignis has fucking done.
    Yea, I think Spring is good there. Idol is not though. No idea for Nirvana.
    And yes, Stratiformis, Spring, and Freedom have their own advantages (ws, mr, rainbow dmg) at the cost of low damage.
    Grandmother and Ignis are probably the ones that need to be re-considered.
     
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  13. wish

    wish I eat pizza upside down HERO

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    Well ya... Even without me researching I can tell mythic bows are a bit off. The only one that is kinda on par is Spring.
     
  14. bloww

    bloww Shoutbox Fancam Account HERO

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    idol is the worst spear imo, tidebinder and heartache are better and idol has no real reason to use it except raw sd but its broken with war scream

    nirvana is fine imo, maybe slightly nerf the -melee if it ever needed a buff

    grandmother is fine imo too, don't forget that it has 4 powder slots and a shitton of neutral damage
     
  15. motoki1

    motoki1 The Damage Calculation Scientist HERO

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    I think weapons with more than 2 slots are worse than 2 slot ones. They need to be put on more powders to compete with other mythics, so it costs more, even though they're probably meant to be all equal balance.
    Well anyway, why I think Grandmother damage needs a buff is even though it has a big disadvantage of -370 average negative Health regen, it doesn't really do any amazing damage compared to other element mythics, or other Earth/Thunder mythics.
     
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  16. i eat bees

    i eat bees i eat bees HERO

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    When you have too much free time and accidently figure out the meaning of life while overanalyzing a video game using math.
     
  17. Tekenen

    Tekenen Professional Loser VIP+

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    Fatal everage ?
    Pure good ?
    Explain please...
     
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  18. motoki1

    motoki1 The Damage Calculation Scientist HERO

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    I think you're looking at the Raw comparison one.
    Look at the first one, that includes SP/IDs.
     
  19. Selvut283

    Selvut283 Circadian rhythm stuck on Tokyo time ♪ Music Item Team GM CHAMPION

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    Actually...

    There's a curve for the damage dealt and the tiers. You remember the great spreadsheet of knowledge, most likely? Well, dependent on the tier, we modify the base damage in different ways. Normal weapons, for instance, actually very quickly drop off in power, resting firmly at 80% of the base damage. Unique weapons start off getting a boost at lower levels, but drop down to base 100% power by about Lv 40. Similarly, Rare and Legendary weapons eventually drop off to a 120% boost and a 140% boost by about Lv 50, but they drop off even further at Lv 80 and 90, to a boost of 110% and 130%.

    I don't do Mythics so I don't know the base boost for them, but.
     
  20. ShadowMage1

    ShadowMage1 Seraph of Twilight CHAMPION

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    Should we bring Salted into this to explain the base boost for Mythics?
     
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