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Community Event [item] - Element Feedback Survey

Discussion in 'Wynncraft' started by SilverMirror, May 16, 2019.


Which Duo-Element Combo(s) do you think are the most underpowered/under-represented?

  1. Earth / Thunder

    49 vote(s)
  2. Earth / Water

    28 vote(s)
  3. Earth / Fire

    30 vote(s)
  4. Earth / Air

    53 vote(s)
  5. Thunder / Water

    12 vote(s)
  6. Thunder / Fire

    31 vote(s)
  7. Thunder / Air

    13 vote(s)
  8. Water / Fire

    48 vote(s)
  9. Water / Air

    10 vote(s)
  10. Fire / Air

    78 vote(s)
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. SilverMirror

    SilverMirror Retired IM HERO

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    Hello everyone! The IM Team here with a new survey.

    For what the IM Team is/does, click here to check out our update thread where we bring you regular update and discussions on items and ingredients.

    As the IMs are finishing up in rebalancing the latest item project - base health rebalance soon (more info on the thread), we have done a great deal of large scale rebalancing to fix some of the game's longest running issues in terms of items. With that, we are planning our next step, and we want the community to be a part of it. The next directory will likely feature reviewing some elements, more specifically, duo-elemental combos. Therefore, before starting anything concrete, we want as many opinions and feedback on the current elemental system in terms of items and build style as possible.

    Ideally, we want to focus the feedbacks on duo-elemental combos, but you can talk about the element/elemental combos in terms of but not limited to the following:

    - Your thoughts and ideas on [insert duo-elemental combo] in the current state of the game
    (e.g. I think Fire/Air is very messy and underrepresented because[...])

    - What you would to see in [insert duo-elemental combo] in terms of playstyle, IDs, traits, anything goes.
    (e.g. I would like to see Earth/Thunder have more sustainability)

    - Any thoughts you have on individual/duo-elemental items.
    (e.g. I think Earth/Thunder items are too glassy but do not do enough damage because[...])

    - Any thoughts you have on individual elements / tri-elemental combos.
    (e.g. I think Fire is pretty underpowered due to the defense bugs currently in the game)

    Comment below your thoughts and discuss with others! For the sake of getting the broadest spectrum of feedbacks, the IMs may not join in on certain discussions to avoid bias.
  2. Madkurre

    Madkurre construction worker VIP

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    earth/air sucks in use. a lot of the power items using earth/air are gimmicky like dune storm or silkweb. there are barely spell items for it and the melee options are overshadowed to the ninth circle of hell by tierstacking.
    with the void weapons all representing it, there isnt really a lack of earth/air weapons but none of them are really outstanding
  3. by2011

    by2011 Atlas Incorporated (losing stocks :c )

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    i feel like more earth/thunder spell items would be cool. more specifically, more earth/thunder spell sp items.

    as i'm sure many of you are aware, earth/thunder spell has a severe sp problem. the sp needed to equip powerful earth/thunder items while having acceptable tankiness is already pretty high, and add intelligence onto that and everything becomes super tight. brainwash (no int) can mitigate this, and so can event horizon (hp, but limited to mage), but that's not really many items.

    most of the earth/thunder armor that gives sp are focused around melee (e.g. tera, conrupt, delirium, post ultima, not to say that they can't be used in spell though), with few exceptions.

    idk no time rn again :D
    Nyam, RazorGuild, Druser and 5 others like this.
  4. NicBOMB

    NicBOMB Maker of Builds | Lurks on Forums | 1 Mythic Found HERO

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    Fire/Air needs some serious help though
  5. Parzizal

    Parzizal .

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    I think that Fire/Thunder and Fire/Water is pretty underrepresented, really only brought up by a few good items in their class. Fire/Thunder has Cinderchain and Black(Maybe also anima but thats tri) and although they're really good they both really come off as thunder items to me and are often used in that way. Would like to see more of these items focus on the fire part, maybe given lifesteal/manasteal which is present in fire/thunder but not really tapped correctly. Fire/Water on the otherhand is really just Hamsey, Hamsey is really damn good, Ophic is nice but really brought down by the massive negative earth defense which forces you to run Gaea, Hetusol is another option but is almost never used because of the overwhelming negative defenses and lacking damages.
  6. Madkurre

    Madkurre construction worker VIP

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    hellstrand, medeis (water is needed anyway), sundown lol
    sizzling shawl, peaceful rest, anima and medeis again though dex req, fishscale

    it's a bit inefficient to list items like this but theres good options for both thunder/fire and water/fire already in my experience
    TheSaltyArrow, Bart (MC) and Druser like this.
  7. Bluescreen

    Bluescreen The Questions Crusader who replied on your post.

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    Here are ALL the comboes, and my opinions (feel free to use this format):

    Earth-Water - It should be a hybrid. More melee than pure earth but less spell than pure water. Sadly, since it's mediocre in everything, you would rather pick just one of the elements. As such, I think it's the weakest.
    Earth-Air - Melee. Melee. This shoiuld be based less on raw damage than Earth-Thunder.
    Earth-Thunder - Also melee. But should have more raw damage boosts than Earth-Air.
    Earth-Fire - Brute combination. It's for slow hits and big defences. Nothing wrong with it.

    Water-Air - The defensive type of water build. It's fine, though air is a bit too splashable.
    Water-Thunder - The raw spell build. For spell damage.
    Water-Fire - Sort of like Water-Air but worse. Fire in general is worse than Air.

    Air-Thunder - For the +999 attack speed builds. It's fiine
    Air-Fire - For the über-defencive builds. It lacks damage though, so it's not really used.

    Thunder-Fire - The "Corruption" theme. There's no solid theme for it other than usually being paired with Earth and having steals. It's sort of offensive + defencive I guess? Not sure.





    Lastly, let me rank all the elements in my opinion:
    S - Water
    A - Air, Thunder
    B - N/A
    C - Earth, Fire

    Fire is the worst element in my opinion, mostly due to only affecting neutral damage (last I saw) while agility affects ALL damage. And earth's just outclassed by thunder, while water is just good for mana and as such spells and as such a LOT. This is partially based on the skill points you get while building a build around those elements.
    Cosomos, Bart (MC) and Parzizal like this.
  8. Parzizal

    Parzizal .

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    medeis is tri, Fishscale sucks you're never gonna not run hamsey with fire/water. Sizzling shawl is never used and trash. Peaceful rest has an int req but I don't know if you can really consider it water/fire because it's mostly used with fire in spell builds. Sundown is good didn't think of that.

    Fire/water and fire/thunder is just so much worse in comparison to air/water air/thunder and I don't think that's really fair.
  9. Madkurre

    Madkurre construction worker VIP

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    it's thunder/fire/water tri, if you want a spell thunder/fire build youre going to have int.
    youre a fool if you take courage over curse on peaceful rest. i do agree it's pretty much your best choice for a mythicless fire spell mage but it's even more optimal with water powders
    it gets more damage than anima in some builds. if you can handle the -thunder def the -hpr is easy to counter as you already use fire or you can even ignore it on mage, on which it's the most optimal (raw spell multiplier on meteor)
    Bart (MC) and Druser like this.
  10. Parzizal

    Parzizal .

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    Nice negative defenses on a fire build, that isn't gonna fucking destroy you later on.
    -hpr isn't really easy to counter because of how big it is, I'm sure it was the design but it's incredibly difficult to counter in an offensive fire build, without getting negative defenses.
    The negative defenses can be pretty hard to counter on thunder/fire builds, and negative defenses are devastating in fire builds because defense doesn't effect elements unlike agility.
  11. Madkurre

    Madkurre construction worker VIP

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    this was a very exaggerated build with fire/water items, you could for one add agility to the concept
    there isnt a need for complete negation. you can utilize life steal in-combat and a hpr secondary weapon out-of-combat
  12. Druser

    Druser Famous Adventurer

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    Earth/Thunder and Fire/Air are going to come up a lot of course. It's hard to build spell with either one, but also hard to build melee because melee isn't good without tierstack.

    I can see how people would think Thunder/Fire and Water/Fire have limited options, but those options are also quite good so I don't really agree that those are underpowered.

    Edit: Raw melee buff might help fix this problem, since it's hard to rawstack while also tierstacking. Still nothing that's more useful on slow melee though.
    Last edited: May 16, 2019
  13. TrueThaumaturge

    TrueThaumaturge Formerly Shitposting 101

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    Water spam seems a bit too strong. Melee builds in general are overshined by spell builds, which require more of a defensive investment than a spell build would due to the nature of close-range melee yet sees little DPS. Tierstacking, while fun, makes slow-hitter builds with items such as Taurus useless. This isn't about elements in particular but I feel melee could use a slight buff. HP buffs will help them out but maybe a general lifesteal buff to go along with the scaled HP would help.

    TL:DR make Tierstack an option, not a necessity, and buff lifesteal to account for higher hp.
  14. jpleflip

    jpleflip ‏‏‎ HERO

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    u should have made 2 polls for underpowered and under represented
    SmileyAlec likes this.
  15. SilverMirror

    SilverMirror Retired IM HERO

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    well yeah, but I dont think I can put two polls in one thread, also the main point is just to see what is "bad" in terms of the perspective of the community and hope to see why and how to improve them in the comments so summing the two together is fine in that way
  16. Bart (MC)

    Bart (MC) Sacramentalia Supporter & Manna Maniac

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    Since people have already discussed quite some about armor, I guess I'm gonna name some weapon element combinations with their (probably) best weapon and which ones are good and which ones are bad (as far as I know, I'm not that good of a class builder)
    And yes I'm aware powdered Infused Hive is usually (almost always) better but that's not really the point ok
    Bow - Petrified Horror, strong & good
    Dagger - Arakadicus' Maw/Limbo, both not really that strong but usable
    Wand - Event Horizon, weird and gimmicky but can solo li apparently
    Spear - The Parasite, also pretty strong & good
    Overall: solid A tier, I'd say
    Bow - Tropics, I guess? idk, not good
    Dagger - Manna, very fun dagger but also very weak
    Wand - The Lethe/Yggdrasil, niche but neat
    Spear - Bedruthan, an actual decent spell warrior option
    Overall: C tier, earth/water is good armourwise but the weapons really lack imo
    Bow - Crust Crusher, not very strong or useful
    Dagger - Fate's Shear/Volcano, decent but I wouldn't call it good
    Wand - [edit] Final Compulsion, pretty decent, tierstackable as well
    Spear - Breakbore/Hammer of the Forge, not that good either but tierstack exists for that
    Overall: C tier, especially surprised there are like no good earth/fire spears
    Well, all of the Voidstone weapons exist. They're decent.
    Bow - Earthsky Equinox, very underrated imo and quite strong, especially with it getting a buff iirc
    Dagger - Nona, very strong & good [edit: Salticidae for melee is pretty good as well]
    Wand - The Lethe, again, but actually useful this time
    Spear - Harwrol, an actually good double-element legendary? what?
    Overall: S tier weapons y'all, we got somewhere
    Bow - Misconduct, quite strong (especially for an unique)
    Dagger - thunder sitis Tsunasweep, not very strong
    Wand - Storm Surge, neat but not that strong
    Spear - Sharpened Harpoon, except Quinque is better and stronger than I remember aaaaah
    Overall: B tier, nothing is really that bad but nothing is high damage either
    Bow - Hellstrand - very strong, one of the best double-element weapons out there
    Dagger - Black, the single best double-element weapon
    Wand - Starburst/Purgatory?, the latter describing it pretty well
    Spear - Harbinger of Fate, not insane but solid nonetheless
    Overall: S tier, don't even care about the wand
    Bow - Stormcloud/Thunderbird, stronger than you'd expect
    Dagger - Blur, very strong and one of the better daggers
    Wand - [edit: woops forgot Voidlight, it's usable but that's about it.]
    Spear - Crack the Skies, also strong and good
    Overall: A tier, too bad about the wand but otherwise very good
    Bow - Shajaea, quite good and underrated. buff shajaea
    Dagger - Noble Phantasm, seems cool but just doesn't get damage output
    Wand - Salvation, essentially useless unique [edit: Peaceful Rest can be pretty strong, but just doesn't work with water/fire gear and is prob better off with pure fire]
    Spear - Charging Flame, is ok
    Overall: B tier, nothing absolutely useless but nothing really useful either
    Bow - Ensa's Resolve, very solid bow, good dmg with 3 mr to boot
    Dagger - Silver, seems pretty weak but might be a mana regen assassin build. should look at it later
    Wand - Predposledni, pretty good wand
    Spear - Lustrous, actually a tri-element with Earth, seems pretty strong as well
    Overall: B tier, again, decent weapons but nothing really standing out.
    Bow - Anthracite Ballista, is ok
    Dagger - Genoxyde?, might as well not be here tbh [edit: well, it can melee, but it's still not really that useful]
    Wand - Phoenix Wing, got buffed iirc but still not that powerful
    Spear - Ace of Spades, seems gimmicky but very usable
    Overall: C tier, nothing stands out or does damage (is to be expected from both defensive elements, but still.) (Also, if you took the time to read through these, feel free to correct me on any weapons that I overlooked/forgot, as well as your opinion on these double-element weapons as a whole. Also, please prove me wrong about some of the weaker weapons, I'd love to see them actually be good.)
    So in terms of weapons, I ended up with
    S tier: Thunder/Fire - Earth/Air
    A tier: Thunder/Air - Earth/Thunder
    B tier: Thunder/Water - Water/Fire - Water/Air
    C tier: Earth/Water - Earth/Fire - Fire/Air
    as a kind of tier list.
    (quick note: this is an opinion)
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  17. HV_Metal

    HV_Metal Divzer and Warp are the best .;,,;. VIP

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    Wand - Final Compulsion
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  18. Druser

    Druser Famous Adventurer

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    Imo you're underrating Phoenix Wing. It has base damage on par with Morrowind. Aside from that I generally agree, although yeah Hive Spear is a better option in a lot of cases, since most of the time giving up another Master Hive item isn't that big of a tradeoff.

    Earth/Air is interesting in terms of armor. We have, roughly, the following:
    Dune Storm - I guess the raw melee got buffed, but in the vast majority of cases negative health armor is just too overwhelming to use effectively.
    Horizon and Battleground Dancer - tierstack, kind of niche but they're pretty nice.
    Ex Nihilo - great on spells, hard to use in many cases (pairing with Aphotic works nicely of course). I like it though.
    Dondasch - Str bonus and walk speed is nice, no negative defs, but otherwise not really much going for it. Can pair with Dune Storm but now you're running a negative health item alongside a mediocre health item, and you have to make up for that somehow.
    Silkweb Mail - Pretty neat. Lifesteal and raw melee is a weird combination but I guess it works.
    Aries - Pretty bad in combat actually. Damage boost is good in theory but easily overwhelmed by tierstack or raw options.
    Pride of the Aerie - Nice stuff, has a few good uses. Typical elemental Hive option.
    Petrichor - Exists? I've heard it's a pretty good unique.

    Pretty sure that covers basically all the specific Earth/Air options. I kind of feel like doing this for every dual-element combination...
    Bart (MC) likes this.
  19. Altakar

    Altakar No longer an IM.

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    Time to put my opinion out there and get ripped to shreds. This'll be interesting.

    Earth/Thunder: It’s clear Earth/Thunder doesn't get as much damage as advertised. Sure, you have loads of strength and dexterity boosting your damage (alone, Event Horizon hits harder than Cascade), but since, in most cases, your spells are either neglected or hampered, damage per second is limited. The element combination is also too glassy because in practice Earth/Thunder doesn’t output that much damage per second. (Yes, I know Event Horizon exists. 85/85 requirement doesn’t let you do that much with 8k extra health, and you need to heal more to heal to full, which further holds back your DPS). At some point, there’s gotta be an earth/thunder item with lots of health and life steal to help alleviate this combo’s glassiness because it’s way too much.

    Earth/Water: This could honestly be better at the moment. People don’t build it enough, and that’s probably because there aren’t that many earth items for spell damage and there’s not much going for it. Probably due to the lack of great earth weapons that work nicely with spell damage, but I don’t build enough so I can’t say.

    Earth/Fire: Didn’t Major have a discussion about this element being underpowered? Anyway, I’m just gonna sum up its problems: not great spell damage (so e/f spell builds are out)and negative walk speed (so e/f melee builds are sort of out). As far as I know the problems on this combination has been discussed. Anyway, we need more items like Downfall because Downfall is really, really good.

    Earth/Air: There’s probably a reason this doesn’t see much use. I don’t know what it is, but I guess it’s because there are no good earth/air weapons. There are some cool earth/air items (Dune Storm, Silkweb Mail) but those are gimmicky. There aren’t nice, solid earth/air items for the archetype to use (such as Pisces for earth/water) either.

    Thunder/Water: Honestly, this is fine. Hits pretty hard but gets punished through survivability. It’s probably okay that this setup exists.

    Thunder/Fire: This is alright, I guess. They do have some really good items in Black, Cinderchain, Anima-Infused Helmet, and maybe Hellstrand, but I think that the success of this combination is quite reliant on spell/water items. Thunder/Fire on its own sucks, probably because it doesn’t have any solid items for the item meta at the moment.

    Thunder/Air: Again, ampered by its lack of good items in my opinion, with The Queen’s Headpiece and Blur being decent but not much else I can think of. Boreal-Patterned Aegis and Steamjet Walkers are also pretty good but not strictly thunder/air because they both feature water. Though I guess this argument gets nullified if you argue that for most (if not all) builds are gonna use spells and need water in some way, and that’s a problem in its own right.

    Water/Fire: Guess it's alright. Peaceful Rest and Ophiuchus are neat but it’s not used much, probably because a lot of people believe that endgame fire sucks.

    Water/Air: According to the community beliefs, the two best elements thrown together because of the insane DPS increase that water items have and the insane survivability that air provides. Not sure if it’s too good. It's probably fine.

    Fire/Air: I think this archetype has been established as having terrible damage despite its double focus in survivability. I guess Phoenix Wing is alright after its buff but I can’t think of anything else honestly. Wonder if an offensive fire/air item is ever going to enter the game because I think that brings much-needed help for this element combination. But since that breaks identities that’s probably not going to happen.

    Also, sometimes I feel water isn’t really used all that often, and it’s just used because of the amazing spell boosts it gives. That’s also an issue that should probably be looked into. Fire and defense are just terrible because of defense not countering elemental damage (how long has this been the case? Since Gavel? If so, that’s bullshit) and negative walk speed, making it lose out completely to air. Pretty similar scenario with earth versus thunder in my opinion, though it’s a little more even. Still a problem.
    SilverMirror and Bart (MC) like this.
  20. Druser

    Druser Famous Adventurer

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    Pisces - Aquamarine is usually better, I guess it has hybrid applications for its raw melee (hard to tell, since the raw melee buff is recent we haven't had time to find uses for it)
    Leviathan - Pisces without mana regen and negative elemental defs. I guess it's alright.
    Seismosoul - Is decent, I've seriously considered using it on occasion (before I discovered Ex Nihilo is good it was what I was going to use). Although, water damage is kind of lacking so eh. Actually this leads into a big problem with dual-element builds - dual-element armor regularly favors one element significantly over the other, making it much more favorable to use a single element weapon. There's no point investing in two elements heavily if you're going to get less boosts overall.
    Vacuum - Good.
    Elder Oak Roots - Awesome. Not really overpowering actually, it just works out well with the negatives.
    Aquamarine - Spell Pisces. It's not even stronger really, but Pisces' 70 Str req really kills its usage.
    Fenmask - Is actually pretty nice. I have a feeling it's going to fall out of usage after the health buff though.
    Marsh Waders - Weaker Elder Oak Roots. No one uses it, and since it's the only rare leggings in its range I actively discard it during lootruns.
    Silt of the Seafloor - Earth/Water in name only. In practice, it's used in other element spell builds to patch elemental defenses for minimal req.
    Charybdis - Decent. Thunder def is annoying though.
    Also has access to tri-element items like Gaea-Hewn Boots.

    Humbark Moccasins - Elemental def patch for other elements.
    Beetle Aegis - Looks good in theory, but it's Earth/Thunder - ~50% damage boost is pretty easily attainable by other element combinations that aren't explicitly offensive-oriented, not to mention you don't get triple negative elemental defs and defensive skill point penalties. Recurring problem that Earth/Thunder doesn't actually get better damage than other dual-element combos (besides Fire/Air)
    Tera - Pretty nice I guess. Useful for meeting high reqs of Earth/Thunder items at least. Pretty underwhelming for an altar item though, you don't get that much damage boost and the -200 air def is a major killer.
    Post-Ultima - Honestly, in most cases I'd pick this over Tera. Rainbow negative defs look ugly but it's certainly preferable to -200 in one element, and the massive raw melee is quite useful.
    Anti-Static - Not an Earth/Thunder item, but an elemental def patch for Earth-based builds.
    Bete Noire - Slow melee sucks so there's not really any point in using this, especially with the reqs being as high as they are. Most other options are better.
    Physalis - Tier booster. Not really relevant to regular discussion.
    Cardiac Arrest - Looks like it would work pretty well with Event Horizon. Can't see many other applications though.
    Crown of Suzaku - reeeeeeee actually it'd be pretty good if the damages weren't so small. It's still a useful elemental def patch though.
    Delirium - Only used for walkspeed.
    Conrupt - Negative health regen is very punishing in most cases. Hard to use without Mage or full melee.
    Brainwash - Honestly this is probably the single best Earth/Thunder armor. One of the few items that manages to give negative Int and actually make up for it with the upsides.
    Can't think of any tri-element items involving Earth/Thunder actually...

    Shawl of Gaea - Good stuff. Quite nice after the buff. Especially fun to pair with Battleground Dancer.
    Rekkr - It's kind of interesting that melee items have to give such massive buffs to even be considered useful.
    Achilles - Negative water def renders it unusable for general play, since you can't really avoid mobs that do water damage.
    Tisaun's Valor - oh wait... actually if Tisaun's grave ever does get completed it looks pretty nice.
    Greaves of the Veneer - One of the most visible Earth/Fire items, very nice. If only Conflagrate was better I would use this...
    Ambertoise Shell - Good elemental defs.
    Mantlewalkers - Knockoff Crusade Sabs. Overall pretty nice.
    Scorpio - wtf
    Also has access to tri-element items like Gaea-Hewn Boots and Thanos Legionnaire Plate.

    Capricorn - No introduction necessary.
    Azure Halo - Only exists for health regen.
    Efteling - Good damage booster.
    The Ephemeral - Worse Capricorn but it's leggings, so you can use it with Steamjets (and also not pay through the roof for a good Capri).
    Starglass - Not really Water/Air, it's really just a water item with some Agi req.
    Dreamcloud - Neat elemental def patch. Surprisingly high usage given that many people flee at the sight of negative damages.
    Wooly Long Johns - Elemental def patch for other element combos.
    Ensa's Ideals - I guess it's an Air def patch for minimal req... (but just use Wooly Long Johns!). As an actual Water/Air item, it's trash. It's not even that good for defense, since the health is nothing standout and it gives negative thunder def anyway.
    Also has access to tri-element items like Steamjet Walkers and Cumulonimbus.

    Sine - Ubiquitous on Black builds. Very useful for Thunder weapons with high req.
    Dark Channeler - No longer has a strangehold on the meta but still quite good.
    Neuron - Is pretty nice if you can swallow -150 thunder def.
    Soul Signal - Juicy raw.
    Trench Scourer - 4/4s mana steal quite nice.
    Again, not many options but a number of pretty good ones, alongside Steamjet Walkers and Cumulonimbus (which really need counterparts for other element combos).
    Also has access to tri-element items like Anima-Infused Helment and Boreal-Patterned Aegis.

    Ophiuchus - Really nice, particularly goes well with Earth/Water/Fire combos.
    Sano's Care - Very good if you can swallow no health.
    Chef Hamsey's Apron - Practically the only thing keeping Water/Fire viable.
    Sizzling Shawl - Actually pretty decent if paired with Chef Hamsey's Apron, best used on Mage or the negative hpr will hurt.
    Soulflare - Would be a nice counterpart to Sizzling Shawl, with the lifesteal and all, but unusable because Chef Hamsey's Apron is practically required to keep Water/Fire usable (-400ish thunder def is a big problem).
    Hetusol - Again, hard to use on Water/Fire. It's much more common on other builds involving Fire, to gain some mana regen, which for Water/Fire Chef Hamsey's Apron does it better.
    Fishscale - You know the drill... no Hamsey's.
    Also has access to tri-element items like Gaea-Hewn Boots, Anima-Infused Helmet, and Medeis.

    Leictreach Makani - Quite good, pairs well with Capricorn.
    Gemini - One of the few cases where an item has enough percent elemental defense for that to be a relevant stat.
    Nephilim - Doesn't count, it's a tierstack item (not that it matters since Centipede exists, although I did use Nephilim on a Braker build)
    Dark Shroud - Nice Agi boost but aside from that's it's not that great.
    The Queen's Headpiece - Quite nice after the raw melee buff.
    Gale's Freedom - Good skill points boosts, although low health is penalizing since it makes using a glassy damage booster alongside it much harder.
    Thunderous Step - Exists I guess. It's decent now that raws have been buffed.
    Mesosphere - Another great example of the situation where a dual-element item penalizes you for using a dual-element weapon rather than a single-element weapon by giving better damage boosts to one of the two elements.
    Ventus Tail - Exists but -250 earth def renders it effectively unusable.
    Sparkling Plate - Pretty nice for raw melee.
    Ossuary - Neat.
    Spectre - Legit endgame option despite being level 65, if you want to go glassy you can pair with Steamjets.
    Also has access to tri-element items like Boreal-Patterned Aegis, Steamjet Walkers, Cumulonimbus, and Hephaestus-Forged Greaves.


    Burnout - Pretty neat tierstack item that could actually see good use as a Fire/Air item specifically... except Phoenix Wing is the only good Fire/Air weapon and melee Mage... eh.
    Heroism - I really like this item but the health just isn't worth it. For the highest req Fire/Air item in the game, it really needs more health.
    Corrupted Uth Set - Health isn't that great and water def is hit hard. Honestly the biggest thing going for the set is the ability to be tanky and fast.
    Heat Sink - Nice item, good lifesteal. Unfortunately, the lifesteal is high for tierstack fire melee but kind of low for everything else.
    Sempiternel - Actually pretty neat as a tanky item. Could probably use more health though.
    Grillface - Doesn't work with melee because +33% damage is pretty weak (and tierstack/raw exists), and doesn't work with spell because of the negative Int (can't use Brainwash since it's a helmet).
    Also has access to tri-element items like Hephaestus-Forged Greaves and Thanos Legionnaire Plate.

    Cinderchain - The centerpiece of Thunder/Fire, and the second-biggest reason it's viable (after Black). Everything you could possibly want except no mana and negative elemental defs.
    Nether's Scar - Nice health and sp, high double negative elemental defs hurt (plus -hpr weirdness so you have to counter it).
    Darksteel Full Helm - Exists, I guess.
    Steel Wool - Literally just worse Cinderchain.
    Insulated Plate Mail - Great elemental defense patch.
    Sunray - Decent.
    Also has access to tri-element items like Anima-Infused Helmet and Medeis.

    No doubt I missed a number of very important items... but I've already spent a long time writing this and I'm too tired to find any more.
    Bart (MC) and SilverMirror like this.