Is Lament Bad? (as A Mythic, Not As A Wand)

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GAY-SERIES
HA GOTEEM get FRICK’D

 

Considering the damage output that it's capable of and the utility that I've described, giving you phenomenal heals for essentially no downside(-10 strength doesn't really DO a whole lot, we've discussed how the life steal is negligible due to the heals) I'd really be inclined to disagree. Other wands like, say, Fatal? Sure, they can inflict more damage, but they also don't get the utility that Lament does.

Looking at it objectively, Lament gets 10 mana steal. That is half your mana bar, and its slow attack speed allows it to proc on a higher percentage of hits than usual, so in essence, you do not need to build mana with Lament if you're playing cannily. That means your entire rest of the build is freed up, save for a bit of intelligence to meet the requirement, and you can really do a lot of mixing and matching in regards to that to build Lament in essentially any way you'd like!

Let's go back to that initial comparison, with Fatal. Yes, Fatal's got great damage! However, it's Thunder-based and has a requirement as such, and everyone cites powerful Meteors. That means they're using spell builds to get that kind of damage, and without the sustainment of mana and intelligence, it becomes a bit unreliable. So, the builds are very restrictive; you have to build sufficient amounts of mana and intelligence. While that may not be terribly difficult, this does limit your options, whereas with Lament's built-in sustain, you're free to build however you choose, such as focusing everything on the highest spell damage items you have with carefree abandon since you haven't got to worry about your mana reserves.

As stated a number of times, the life steal, even as harmful as -300 is, is negligible due to the increased healing capacity it gives you. Let's say you've got 11000 health or so; 10-12k at endgame seems to be average. Heal, naturally, is 10% of your maximum health, so that's 1100 health per heal. However, the Bonus Water Damage ID on items(not from intelligence) increases your healing capacity by a relative .5% per point, up to its cap of 75% effect at 150% water damage, which would be 17.5% health healed.

In this case, Lament gives a natural 35% Water Damage, which increases the amount healed from 1100, to 1293, per pulse, over three pulses, so 3879 health healed. That's far more than enough to recoup the health lost from the life steal!

You're losing time using heal that could be better spent spamming Meteor? Not so. Meteor takes about a second to a second-and-a-half to land after you cast it, which is more than enough time to throw a Heal out.

You're losing valuable mana that could be utilized for your Meteors? Not so. 129 intelligence is a 75% reduction, so you'll have all your spells costing only 1-2 mana. Since you're gaining 10 from your mana steal, you still have 6 mana left over to do whatever with, and that's just from what you got from your Mana Steal. Plus, you can hit enemies multiple times to completely top off your mana bar!

It seems to me like the people making this thread simply don't like the playstyle that the item enforces compared to something simpler, like Nepta Floodbringer or Fatal. That doesn't mean Lament is bad, it just isn't for you, and that's perfectly fine.

 

Buff Lament






Now that I've gotten that out of the way time for some real criticism.

• Mana Steal

One of the worst features of Lament is inconcistancy. Which is mostly brought on by Mana Steal. Because Mana Steal decides to proc whenever the fuck it wants you could be hitting away at something with low mana while you're get smacked around by something. As you pray for MS to proc so you can heal your hp is getting drained. When it doesn't proc... you die. Mana Regen doesn't have this problem. Because you know when the MR will proc, you know how to pattern attacks to corrilate with your Regen times. That's why MR will always be better than MS.

• Mana Steal roll

One of Selvuts main arguments when defending Lament is how you can steal half of your mana in one hit. This is a semi-valid point, because in order to get half your mana on one hit you actually need to roll a 10 MS Lament. Obviously these aren't common and if it's not 10 mana it's no big deal right. But if you get 2-5 or 6 mana on a Lament you're fucked.

• Heals

Lament's heals are its brightest spot, but it's not like Lament is the only item that has high water dmg. And you also can't heal if you don't have mana. Which you rely on the all-inconcistant Mana Steal for. And heals don't give all of your HP back anymore

• DMG

The DMG on Lament isn't too bad at all. But it's not the greatest DMG ever. Having the 3rd highest Mythic Meteor DMG
(Might be 4th after Singu buff idk)
(behind Fatal, Warp) And 4th best generall DMG (behind Fatal, Warp, Gaia)
Again, may be 5th (2nd worst ahead of Monster [Pure doesn't count]) after Singu buff
While the DMG is good, you once again rely on mana steal for this which, with a very bad roll, can be sucked up by the heals.

Overall Lament is pretty good, it's just that if it got a buff it would by no stretch of the imagination be overpowered. and that is why...

Spoiler

FbUuCfKfIlNaGmDeOnItT

 

In general, mythics in general tend to be more identifcation-dependent than other items; not completely sure if this is an intentional trend. However, I feel that this isn't a valid criticism of lament, of course laments with worse ids will be worse. It's a flaw feature of the identification system, making all my mythics bad adding variation between items of the same type.

 

• "Nepta does 2k less meteor damage than Lament, therefore it must be bad because it can be compared to a legendary while being a mythic."
• "Other water mythics are alot better"

lets see, nirvana only deals 200-500 less spin damage than sitis, now you may counter this with "40 int" or "mana regen" but according to your previous posts, obviously ids dont matter right? especially when they're on a mythic. seriously, 10/4 mana steal is not a joke.

 

By that logic warp is super bad because you could get -16 mana regen. You should judge a weapon by its maximum potential. If you don't then you might as well want them to buff everything that has rolls that are crucial to the weapon.

 

thats a problem with warp too, but its getting buffed to -14 min and with warp -14 and -13 suck, -12 to -10 are not ideal, -9 and -8 are great. but with Aquarius, Boreal(or Capri), Third Eye you can counter all of it no matter the roll

 

But you can use ms items to counter laments ms if it's bad (dia hydro brace, trench scourer, galleon, etc).

 

Indeed but most of the better lameme builds focus on dmg rather than mana steal cuz lament has all you need. Unless you get a shit roll.

 

nirvana actually does like 1k more spins than sitis

 

It’s kinda neutral;

It’s the best water wand,
But mythics are supposed to be 5x better than legends so
#
Buff
Lament

 

Nope. Mythics are, by statistical baseline, meant to be 40% stronger in terms of base damage, than legendaries. In terms of effect? Salted described them as "Legendaries that get a ton of power/identity out of their powerful IDs", which while it doesn't quite work for a few of them such as Cataclysm, gives a better idea of how they're meant to be.

 

Spoiler: disclaimer: gimmicks and stuff

note: many mythics have gimmicks. e.g. (not i.e. because someone's going to say "what about")
strati, warp: ws
guardian, ignis: higher tankiness than normal
inferno: both high spell and dps
spring/idol/nirvana/lament: high mana and easy concentration stacking
divzer: uses def/hp instead of agi
nulli: high ls/ele def
apocalypse: higher ls
singularity: high pierce also inferior ws
collapse: ele def
alkatraz: no powder special
(cataclysm, gma, etc arent gimmicks because it's a negative that is countered and factored into damage)
values are taken from builds i've seen that
-have good ele def
-have some form of tankiness through defense, hp, or agi
-have sufficient mana if needed
-are in the same style (so i can't compare brainwash hive wand to regular fatal etc)

i don't know everything, correct me if i'm wrong on a weapon's damage. i'm not factoring in mythic boots aside from warchief

now, comparison between "best" item of each element to its mythic in terms of damage:

Spoiler: wands

fatal: 15k meteors
hive wand: 12k meteors

warp: 14k meteors
hive wand/morrow: 10k meteors

lament: 13k meteors:
nepta: 11k meteors

monster: 12k meteors
hive wand: 10k meteors

(new) singularity: 14k? meteors
cascade: 12k meteors

gaia: 16k? dps
compiler: 8k dps

biggest difference: ~2x from gaia
average difference: ~1.3x

Spoiler: spears

idol: 14k uppercuts
hive spear: 12k uppercuts

tcrack: 18k uppercuts
hive spear: 14k uppercuts

alkatraz: 25k dps
(new) braker: 15k dps (by the way, new braker is so much better than rikter it's not even funny)

apocalypse: 9k dps
diaminar: 8k dps

hero: 14k uppercuts
hive spear: 12k uppercuts

guardian: 13k uppercuts
hive spear: 11k uppercuts (when built with same survivability)

collapse: 13k dps
proxima: 8k dps (i don't know how collapse does w/ spell, too lazy to see)

biggest difference: alkatraz/collapse with 1.6
average: probably like ~1.4x

Spoiler: daggers

cataclysm: 15k spins
hive dagger: 10k spins

grimtrap: 10k spins
hive dagger: 8k spins

grimtrap: 14k dps
big arm: 10k dps

inferno: 10k spins
hive dagger: 7k spins

weathered: 9k spins
hive dagger: 7k spins

nirvana: 9k spins
sitis/hive dagger: 7k spins

nullification: 8.5k spins
sawtooth: 7k spins

biggest difference: 1.5x with cataclysm
average: ~1.2x

Spoiler: bows

spring: 11k bombs
hive bow: 10k bombs

strati: 13k bombs
hive bow: 10k bombs

ignis: 13k bombs
hive bow: 10k bombs

divzer: 18k bombs
hive bow: 13k bombs

gma: 15k bombs
hive bow: 11k bombs

freedom: 13k bombs
hive bow: 11k bombs

highest difference: divzer with 1.4x
average: 1.3x ish

notice how lament fits very nicely with other mythics

 

I’m not so sure, but wouldn’t Judas be the legend alternative for fatal?

________________________________

I still voted +1 because I have a mage and

LONG LIVE CANCER MAGE!

 

It should be but Hive Wand and Judas get near the same damage (although Judas gets slightly more) so it doesn't really matter in terms of comparing damage to fatal.

 

I guess so, but it would need Mr to be good for constant spell use

 

Since Meteor has its 1-1.5 second delay between casting and hitting, it really doesn't thanks to slower attack speeds having their stealing effects proc more often on attack. Continuing to use your melee will keep your mana bar well filled.