Immortality - An Issue Never Talked About.

Perhaps there could be more mechanically interesting bosses if the idea of playing safe was not equated to being unkillable? ALso EO is one section of an entire RPG experience. A single exceptions is not particularly convincing evidence alone to say "its not a problem in general".

 

I don’t understand what you mean by this

And as for the latter half, I do feel like that is a problem with Wynn in general. Wynn needs more mechanics like wretches that require you to put together a balanced build.

 

What if you were to make it so that taking damage pauses health regeneration thougj

 

Then everyone would use lifesteal builds and not hpr builds...

 

Lmao, what?
Then tell me why the fuck the item team rebalance mythics all the time?
This is literally the stupidest argument in yet. You are unironically stating that mythics should not adhere to game balance.
Should mythics be strong? Yes. Should mythics literally allow you to not engage with any of the mechinics of the game, except in the most basic possible way?

Also, I didn't even mention mythics in that quote? What the hell are you on about?

No, no its not a similar amount of ease.
You act as if I've never played anything other then tanks.
Actually having to engage with the content of the game in order to win a fight, vs not having to put any amount of effort at all, what's so ever.
No, it is not a similar amount of ease.

 

To be fair it took alec a couple hours to solo the eye with a thorns build.

 

If it isn't difficulty to you, then it better count for something. Not everyone likes taking long amounts of time to do things, even if it's no risk. Also, there are some bosses than can still outheal (well, wall certain elemental damage in particular as well). Also, remember what I said? Not everyone has good builds. The forums and discord are great places to get good builds, but they represent a very small part of all the players that play wynncraft. Not everyone interacts with the community at all. What druser was referring to is the fact that you shouldn't have to have a certain amount of dps to be able to beat something, which I think is fair. But that doesn't mean that all mobs and bosses necessarily follow that, as the content team may not think the same way, or have gotten around to fixing it all.

Yes, of course it was, but the fact that you presented it at all means that I wanted to try to counter it. Also, I'm not sure what you meant by particle? And there is no extreme issue here. If you want to run minecraft for five hours straight, just to beat a boss, I don't see anything wrong with that. It would take much less time to learn how the boss works and how to play around its attacks, but that's up to you.

Again, not for everyone. They do not have your mythics, your experience, your builds (I'll mention more about the mythics later). You can't speak on everyone's behalf with personal experience. And yes, forever is an overstatement, but it's still several times longer than with a good damage build and some skill.

Not everyone uses intelligence, lmao. Assuming you build WFA, there are still 4 other options that also use both defense and agility, those being TFA, EFA, ETFA, and FA (technically 5 if you include rainbow.)

Thing is, it's literally not, lol.
Let's take a look through the lower end of the price of fire/air mythics, shall we?
Inferno- 1 stack
Weathered- 7 stacks
Guardian- 2 stacks
Hero- 1.5 stacks
Monster- 1 stack
Warp- 6 stacks
Ignis- 6 stacks
Stratiformis- 5 stacks
Absolution- 5 stacks
Olympic- 2 stacks
Out of these, there is a total of TWO mythics you could afford by endgame from quest money. Hero is a bit above, but still 32le over. And, by the way- this assumes that A. They don't spend a single emerald, ever, of that quest money, and B. that they do all the quests in the first place, both of which are pretty unreasonable in my opinion. Doing all of the quests is a good idea, but people often seem to prefer to grind levels, and the trade market is a very easy way to get the armor and weapons you want- aka SPENDING that money you earn. Not a lot of players just save and save all their money.
And no, I was not saying to buff bosses. I was referring to this:

presumably, you assume that they are using fire mythics mainly or at least some tank mythic? And that for some reason, you believe this a point on your side, which it is not. That is why I referenced things like divzer shredding EO in like 3 minutes, and that mythics are expensive and not everyone can afford them. You shouldn't be basing an argument on things that most people lack.

 

Mythics are a bad way to gauge balance, and that's both due to some mythics being unbalanced as hell and common sense that a game shouldn't be balanced around items you most likely won't be able to get. Yes, it's relatively easy to get mythics nowadays compared to a year ago, but it's still dozens of hours of grinding, sometimes reaching even higher. Granted, this might be standard for some other RPGs, but Wynn has always had its balance with ignoring mythics, and I don't think that should change even with mythics becoming somewhat more common. Especially for new players who most definitely will not have the stacks to buy a good mythic (or are able to find a relatively cheap one after some time of grinding, I suppose), designing difficulty around the highest possible rarity is breaking entirely with the open-ended, build creativity-pushing item system of Wynn, and I really wish that when talking about difficulty and bosses, they could be set aside for just that discussion.

That minirant on people who keep legitimately taking the items that were once meant as an easter egg as a good indicator for everything regarding balance aside, I do have to agree that there is a bit of a problem with the current defensive options. Even putting some of the clearly unreasonable outliers such as Boreal aside, I can't entirely disagree some non-mythic items do have too much sustain. If I remember correctly, you use Guardian Boreal (heh), but current cancelstack builds as well as some hybrid ones can reach 1k life steal sometimes not even going out of their way for it, and health regen occasionally has its moments as well. Comparing to before isn't always accurate, but there has been a tremendous rise in values for sustain, and the difficulty hasn't completely grown with that. Something more stupid is Endurance being way better than it should be- it's often enough the entire damage for a defensive build using a fire weapon, and gives people much more opportunity to just stack sustain on a build.

That being said, I don't think the concept of "unkillable" builds is necessarily bad. Like has been said earlier, very good defense is something that people with less skill, worse computers and high ping really appreciate. An extreme (although probably not in the current mythic-tier degree) towards tanking is also important to still reward people who use defensive items and play more defensively- dps has, is and probably will be the main focus of builds, and that's not because some people decided they prefer a glassy playstyle. There's also a problem of tanks in nearly every game being party-focused, and we all know how cool that is.

That's just the way Wynns gameplay goes: boss regen, a soft wall for how effective health/defense is (as long as you regain health back faster than losing it, any extra defensive stats won't really matter), no team incentive, and not many fights in general being designed for tank builds. it does partially come down to preference, but with mainly the "sustain soft wall" existing, people then starting to purely focus on dps is as clear as 1 + 1. And Wynn doesn't have an amazingly high wall.

Should that change? I mean, the general difficulty could go up a bit, but that's not really a good fix, moreso a temporary setback at most. This once again spirals back to Wynn being balanced around being somewhat difficult for endgame builds using legendaries. Which is very subjective, some people want the accessibility gone for challenge, while others don't, but for the sake of argument the current design philosophy is what we have working with. Aside from just a blanket nerf to stop people from being able to have as easy sustain.. you're not really able to do anything. It might work for a bit, but it's also subjective what can be considered a good ratio of sustain to offense, and there's the problem of powercreep, and.. and..

We don't really need the current "unkillable" niche tank meta to disappear, not right now. We need more reasons to play tank so sustain isn't the single thing to have as "the tank build", as otherwise the funny Boreal hpr % or the funny Nulli ls is inevitable. If tanks had more options, the concept of extreme sustain and becoming unkillable would be less prevalent and less needed, although thankfully not dying out- sometimes broken is just more fun, and if you main mythics or even some non-mythics you're not allowed to argue with that.

I don't have many ideas about what would have to be added aside from maybe some cute major ids regarding max health, different uses for sustain ids or increasing damage, or some useful new id that would end up useful as a tank id (defense reduction?). We're very far away from tanks being able to properly exist in Wynn, and they might honestly never.


tl;dr "unkillable" builds aren't that awful when talking about balance, and the circumstances of why they exist and how that would be solved are actually pretty yucky.

 

I think it also might be prudent to define immortality. My opinion changes a lot depending on whether we're talking about being able to afk at the Eye, or if we're talking about just being super duper tanky.

 

When did this become about every tank build?
The premises of the thread is literally about unkillable builds.
THIS IS NOT ABOUT EVERY TANK BUILD, NOR ABOUT THE AVERAGE TANK BUILD.
YES, NOT EVERY TANK BUILD IS IMMORTAL, I NEVER SAID THEY WERE.
I SAID IMMORTAL TANK BUILDS, ARE BAD. SPECIFICALLY THE IMMORTAL ONES.

This thread has never been about, nor have I even mentioned, the average player.
The title, unironically, very specifically, says "Immortality - An Issue Not Talked About"

________________________________

I literally mean afking The Eye.
I'm very specifically talking about the subset of builds that can afk the eye.

 

Man yall love writing long arguments, I'm too lazy to do that so all I'm gonna say is

Being able to full tank can actually deal just as much damage as other builds in practical use - if you can just stand in front of the enemy and keep spamming spells without needing to dodge, and you have enough mana sustain to keep up the spell cycle, then in practical use you can potentially deal as much damage as other builds where you would have to dodge attacks, and maybe take a moment to distance yourself if you get low on hp which would cut away at your dmg output.

Also yes the powder weapon skill is a pretty big contributor to tank builds getting good dps output, but if you're gonna argue that the fire powder special is way too OP then it's an entirely different matter to be discussed, and not the main point of the argument.

 

When you are talking about the "misconception" of tank builds not having high dps, that is what I was referring to- because they don't have high dps when most players use "near-immortal" or "immortal" builds. This also is where the mythic argument factors in- to reach those decent dps amounts, those builds will very commonly need mythics.
Why I was talking about the average player is because this isn't an issue at all if nobody uses it/nobody can utilize it so they can be unkillable yet also have good dps.
Also, please let me know a build that can afk the eye but also kill it in 7-12 minutes if you decide to attack.

 

I believe his point was that it's a non-issue because 99% of people will never experience it
I could say that B-hopping in HL2 is an issue because it allows me to ignore the car in Highway 17 and skip a bunch of fights, which isn't intended and clearly against the developers' wishes, but I have to put effort into learning and executing B-hopping, and most people don't even know it's possible so who cares

 

That feature was removed because it made regenning in battles nigh-impossible.

 

I see, thanks

 

I kinda see where you were coming from, but being able to regen mid-fight is a lot more versatile of an ability whereas before, it was basically just "do you need to drink potions outside of battle in order to heal up full?" rather than anything truly useful. I don't think we're going to ever remove that ability- just nerf regen amounts as needed if there ends up being an endemic amount of unkillable builds.

 

1. I think being able to make a build that makes you immortal is part of the reason why class building is so fun. You can basically make any playstyle you want, with endless customization and the only thing stopping you is numbers. Creating absurd builds is part of the fun.

2. It should always be an option for people who just want to have mindless fun. After all, a grand majority of the people who actually have builds just do damage or all-rounder builds because that's the FUN option for most people. However, some people like to have FUN by breaking game balance, and that's alright.

3. Playstyles are usually nerfed if they have pretty much no downsides and are the superior option. Immortal builds, as incredibly busted as they may be, still have a downside. They usually have less damage and take longer to kill bosses with. Subjectively you can say that that's broken, but you cannot deny the fact that there are downsides to having an immortal build vs a non immortal build.

 

It's also worth noting that even though unkillable tank builds are a plausible way to beat almost any boss, practically no one actually plays unkillable tank builds. The inverse curve of damage and tankiness necessitates that most players will tend towards some midpoint.

 

Wasn't hpr/s at 8s at one point?

From what i remember, after the hpr changes (allowing hpr during combat), hpr/s was nerfed from 4s to 8s because of the immortal builds. I don't see why hpr can't just get nerfed to 8s again to balance hpr tanks lol.