Info Im Team Applications + Item Rebalance Changelog

Given that lament is essentially the tankiest mage build in the game, it definitely doesn't need a buff. It has ease of access to a large amount of mana purely by itself, which isn't something much, if any, items have. It loses a marginal amount of health, sure, but it is marginal. It's absolutely nothing compared to the healing potential.

Also, since it's water and water is very balanced its DPS is extremely high while also being very sustainable.

 

huh?

king of hearts you said?

In all seriousness, Lament definitely needs a buff.

One thing people often say about Lament is that it has mana by itself which is amazing.

But it is it?

With mana by itself, that would mean that you could focus more on damage/defense rather than slotting in things like Aquarius or Third Eye... but... most of the items that boost Water damage boost your mana regen at the expense of a lower damage boost. The items that don't trade in extra mana have other problems. Aphotic kills your Thunder defense and your Attack speed (which may be considered good from a mana steal point of view). Water Sanctuary has no hp boost and kills your Thunder defense.

This means that you will often end up with mediocre damage and stupidly high mana, which paired with high int and the fact that you have to wait around a second between meteors, is all around not so great.

Let's look at a Lament build made by an anonymous person: https://wynndata.tk/s/lrSHCc

Now let's look at a Cascade build but substituted with a Hive Wand and Intensity substituted for Lodestone: https://wynndata.tk/s/5BsdXg

Oh.

Pros of Lament:
-Higher Mana
-Higher Int
-Slightly Higher Meteor
-Slightly Higher Heal
-Higher Pierce
-Conc > Kill Streak IMO

Pros of Hive:
-No -Lifesteal
-Slightly Higher Def
-Higher Agility
-Higher HP
-Higher Elemental Defense
-More Versatility (More potential for a secondary. With Lament, you only have Water damage %, but with Hive build you have all damage % and also good Water damage %)

Keep in mind that the hive wand is a LEGENDARY, as opposed to a mythic.

Sure, the Hive build is thunder but that only really changes your powder specials (which I've already taken note of, Chain Lightning = Curse IMO)

 

You do have a point about lament being a bit mediocre, but imo comparing hive wand and lament with different builds is pretty unfair. When doing a scientific experiment on how fast two different flowers grow, would you put one in the basement and the other near a window? No, the sensible thing to do is put them in the same room. Following the same logic, we would compare both of them with the same build to see how good lament really is.

Also, hive wand is getting a nerf in the next update, albeit a small one, but still, you should take that into account

 

can we not compare non-rainbow slap to rainbow slap

 

Hive wand is a damage-focussed wand, while Lament is meant to be the ultimate support wand. The water damage is there to boost your heals, and the mana steal so you can get infinite mana for more heals. Besides, Lament is a water item. Water generally has less damage but more spamming potential.

And Hive Wand isn’t just a legendary, it’s a purely damage-focussed Hive Master reward. Those things are way more powerful than the average legendary.

And as mentioned above at least put them in the same build when comparing .-.

EDIT: And use the same powders, you’re basically comparing thunder and water items and then saying water is bad because it doesn’t deal as much damage as thunder... Which is a damage-focussed element.

 

What I'm getting from this is:
You think that I believe that Hive is about as good as Lament because it does more damage, which is only because of the element.

Wrong.

Compare the raw tankiness excluding heals: Hive destroys Lament
Compare the heals: Lament beats Hive by 500
Compare the mana: Lament beats Hive, but not by much. Consider that Hive also can proc Chain Lightning for Mana Steal (although it's Fast attack speed)

What?

We're comparing these items as weapons. Lament reaches its full potential with a Water build, whereas I just chose the build that I could find that makes Hive the strongest possible. Why would you use an inferior build? It's like using Discordant instead of Prowess when Prowess is available. Plus, you have to look at the skill point requirements on Lament. Due to the fact that Lament has high INT requirement, you don't have access to builds that are as good as this Hive one.

I really don't have much to say to this (fair point), the best reason I could think of was the one listed above. I'm not 100% sure if the above Lament build is optimal, but I spent a solid 2 minutes obtaining each build.

If you want the same builds, here you go:
https://wynndata.tk/s/pM3WgV Lament with Hive build, raw
https://wynndata.tk/s/yMdDiK FIXED Lament with Hive build

https://wynndata.tk/s/ro9cx8 Hive with Lament build, raw
https://wynndata.tk/s/b2lpMV FIXED Hive with Lament build, raw

I didn't use optimal items for the fixes. By Fixes, I meant to make it equippable.

 

because your lament build doesnt make a very good use of its support potential

 

I suppose so. But you can't just trash your damage in exchange for heals.

Also, if possible, please show me a build that DOES make good use of its support potential. I sort of want evidence from you and also it would be nice to be able to compare the builds.

If you hate me doing comparisons using different elements THAT MUCH after I presented my argument (above reply), then here's the hive build using Water Powders: https://wynndata.tk/s/JNHUET I changed Lodestone out because that's useless. 11k meteors but higher mana regen.

Also, here's using chlorine instead of Gold Hydro: https://wynndata.tk/s/6JuOsE

 

people have a problem with using different builds, not only elements

 

I already acknowledged that, if you actually read my post. Also, I already posted the replaced builds with pretty much exactly the same everything (powders, gear)

Plus, as I said before, we're comparing two weapons. Just the stats of the weapon isn't what only matters. Lament may outshine Hive just looking at the stats, but Hive has access to better builds due to not requiring vast amounts of intelligence.

please read what i said before criticizing me, thanks

________________________________

Cascade manages to do something similar, just with rainbow slap, lower meteors, and switched up mana.

 

You're building around Lament wrong. With Lament, the mana steal value allows you to sustain off of that alone, meaning you can stack tankiness to take advantage of the big heals which also negate the negative lifesteal.

Like this: https://wynndata.tk/s/6OUjbC (hey look I used Medeis)

10k meteors, 6.9k heals, 15.8k health, 12/4 ms.

And guess what, it's unusable with hive wand, because it does not have the same massive mana steal value that Lament has over it. Don't always think of items as better or worse versions of each other, they each have their own purpose or at least have qualities that another doesn't have.

 

What's this? Someone actually giving hard evidence (wynndata link) that I'm wrong instead of just telling me? Thanks for your explanation, I just haven't really seen any Lament builds both on forums and in game that are just support.

IMO Lament still needs a buff though.

A King of Hearts secondary works fine on my build: https://wynndata.tk/s/zLHwoU, then 6.8k heals.

Or, if you used a Cascade build: https://wynndata.tk/s/zLHwoU, then 7.2k heals

My build looks less tanky (12k hp instead of 16k), but it does have both Def and Agi which makes up for that.

Due to the fact that you can't switch back to your primary for the duration of the heal, the dps is taken down a significant amount.

However, you won't always need to use all 3 pulses of the heal, or you could simply use Cascade's or Hive's heal. After all, you really shouldn't be taking all that much damage because of the higher Def and Agi and Elemental Defenses.

If it's your allies seriously need 6.8k heals constantly, then sure, you can go for Lament. However, at that point, your allies will probably end up being murdered the moment they come out of your range.

Therefore, the only reason you might need a 6.8k heal is if your ally gets hit by burst damage and needs quick healing in order to not die (by that I mean like getting hit by a disintegrator core). However, you can just use King of Hearts because just take some time out to heal just once or twice during a fight doesn't really affect your overall dps TOO much.

TL;DR:
-You do not personally need 7k heals to survive (due to 45 def and 75 agi)
-Your allies probably don't need constant 7k heals to survive if they have a real build
-If they do, you'll have to constantly stick to them for them to not die
-If your allies get hit by say, an arrow storm or disintegrator core, then you can use King of Hearts as a secondary to quickly heal them up anyway

 

i would have gladly read your post before "criticizing" if you didnt edit it after i posted mine
that, or if i had a time machine

 

*waits for mana regen instead of instant mana steal to keep up healing*
*also cannot deal damage to contribute*
Wow, it's almost like people would like a build with more consistent healing and that doesn't force you to swap to a weapon with 1 damage.
I wonder what we could use for that. Is there a wand that can do both damage and huge heals without waiting for the mana regen timer?

 

it seems you didn't read the bottom part of my post.

If your allies actually need 7k heals constantly, then something's wrong with their build like wtf. To put this into other words, your allies are losing 7k hp every 3 seconds. But even if they did lose that much hp, then the moment they get seperated by you, they will probably die.

In addition, 5/4 mana steal + 8/4 mana regen (or 6/4 mana regen and 7/4 mana steal in Hive Wand's case) is more than enough mana steal if combined with the mana regen. With mage, you can only use mana so fast due to meteor taking 1 second between each cast and heal taking 2 seconds.

I edited my post VERY SLIGHTLY. The only thing I added after I told you to read my post was more explanation about why I used different builds (the thing about how Lament needs more skill points). The 4 builds at the bottom were there the entire time.

I'll admit, "criticizing" was bad word choice on my part. I should've just said arguing.

EDIT: Maybe it took you awhile to make your post, but in hindsight, I edited my post multiple times except that was before you made your post, sooo

I don't really know what you were thinking, but maybe you didn't notice that I had two posts? Idk

EDIT 2: You guys are doing a poor job of convincing me. aa was the only person here who gave me a wynndata link as evidence and was also the one of the only people who didn't say I did something wrong or I was wrong while ignoring half of my message.

Even if I am wrong (which you haven't convinced me of yet, the way you guys are arguing with me (ignoring the part of my post that contradicts with your argument) makes me even more stubborn.

Besides, maybe you guys forgot, but my point here is that Lament needs a buff, not that it's a trash wand that's outshone by a legendary. I'll admit that the way I've talked sort of implied that I thought that Hive Wand/Cascade/King of Hearts > Lament

What I'm trying to get out is that the difference between Lameme and Cascade/Hive isn't big enough.

 

I mean, the fact that it can sustain its own mana on demand and be used in a super tanky build with high heals while maintaining 10k meteors proves that it is already very powerful and therefore doesn't need a buff. While there are wands that do similar amounts of damage or healing, none of them can sustain mana to such a degree, nor do any of them have all of it in one weapon (and Lament does better damage than other water weapons anyways).

 

The main thing that sets apart my and Lament builds are that Lament builds (from what I've heard) have 7k heals as opposed to 4.5k.

Otherwise, it's all pretty much the same (yours has Higher INT, but let's be honest Mage Spells + 130 int + 12/4 mana steal + 2/4 mana regen is a bit excessive.

You're right about the fact that Lament gives good damage, high heals, and insane mana, but here's the thing:

Since the Hive wand doesn't require 130 intelligence to use, you can get that mana from armor and accessories while retaining higher damage (even with Water powders). Although the heals are less, 6.9k heals is a bit excessive if you ask me. You yourself certainly don't need 6.9k heals due to high HP, Elemental Defense, and Natural Defense. I do agree that it would be nice to have over 4.5k heals, but I feel that 5.5k really is enough.

Honestly, just lower the INT requirement to like 110 or so. (For example, you could replace Vaward with Dark Chan on your build)

 

fook i meant 90 lmfao im smart (i just saw the 130 on the build and i didn't remember lament giving any int)

i'm actually dying of laughter

(idk how tf to balance though anyway 20 int may be too much)

 

Isn't lament fine as it is? It deals more damage than nepta a damage focused weapon, and is Lament hits the intel cap for mage spells (you need 19 intel at least)
Damage-wise I think its decent for a water weapon,
https://wynndata.tk/s/yF589Q 9284 Average meteors with Lament
https://wynndata.tk/s/yMFoQw 7.3k Average meteors with Nepta (offensive water wand btw lol)
https://wynndata.tk/s/DsTb4t 9231 Average Meteors with Infused Hive (5 Water powders, gave it 110 intel because Lament's min req is 110 intel)
As you can see Lament's damage is slightly higher than Infused hive, while having 10/4 mana steal (max) and hitting the intel cap with no skillpoints added into intel besides to actually use lament, and Infused Hive itself doesn't get intel so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯