Ice Bear On Loans

You goddamned thief.

________________________________

Go to hell, stealing my joke. Adding you to my list of enemies.

Guys, please do not like that message it is a stolen joke that they took from me.

 

Here's an idea for the Moderators- if you can't regulate the risky business of loans in Wynncraft, just ban them altogether!! It seems counterintuitive to allow such business schemes that make scamming stupidly easy to continue, and simply warning Players of the dangers won't ever be enough. I mean, the clarification in the rules lays out that scammers won't be punished for loans gone bad- does anybody else see how exploitative that loophole is?? I mean, I theoretically could start a loan shark group and get away with it, since Staff won't do anything.


Banning loans may have a slight negative impact on the economy, so to compensate I recommend that alternative methods of money making be promoted instead. Lootrunning and Seavale Reef come to mind...

 

Loans are basically keeping the economy going right now, banning them will hurt the economy more than anything else. This is because loans are like the biggest generator of raw right now. No one except those few rich people that are loaning have raw. We have all seen what's happening currently with the mythic market, and that is because of people having very little raw, and avo grinding killing some mythics. Good thing they nerfed Avo, but the raw issue is getting carried by loaners right now, without loaners you'd see prices crash even harder.

 

So it's a pick your poison type of situation then. I won't pretend to know much about the current state of Wynncraft's economy, but from my perspective letting it run on unmoderated businesses is practically begging for disaster to strike. To solve this, Staff could pump more methods of obtaining raw LE into the server and then ban loans, so to avoid prices falling even further.

 

Loaning can actually work pretty well, if done correctly, such as getting a second pc of the collateral to make sure it's correct, and to anticipate if prices are falling while you're loaning, then there's no real reason to ban it. Also there's a real good method of obtaining raw rn, it's called doing the rewarding quests. Adding something even better than that would be too powerful, and we'll see a very big rise in mythic prices, which will make it harder for newer players to enter the mythic market. So all we need is for loaners to do it correctly, by asking for a collateral, double checking its worth, and anticipate if prices are falling.

 

It had potential until moderator opinions







rip 3rd person

 

I think you guys under estimate every problems the moderation will face if they would accept a loan system...

 

If any of you have tried selling mythics like I have recently, I'm sure you've noticed a major lack of raw offers. If not, I can say I certainly have. I was talking with someone who brought up the point that this is because there is not enough raw circling the market right now. The only people with substantial amounts are saving it due to them not feeling safe loaning it out there, and due to how rare it currently is. For example, if someone wanted to buy my weathered but didn't have the raw, right now they can't take out a loan since loaners might not feel comfortable with that. This means I won't be receiving raw, and they won't be getting the mythic. If the rule was changed however, this would allow for more LE to be brought onto the market, making everyone happier with their trading. For the rule, I suggest it be made so that if a player has proof of someone else agreeing to the terms for their loan, and the recipient of the loan does not follow up on these terms, the loaner can send in the proof to be able to retrieve their money back. I think doing this would make loaners feel much safer and it would definitely help to bring raw money back into the market.
In conclusion, I truly believe that there is not enough raw in the market right now, and that isn't healthy for the Wynn economy at all. I believe the rule regarding loans should be changed so that with proof of a player agreeing to the terms of a loan, if the loaner does not receive what they were promised they need protection allowing them to get their money back.

 

Ice Bear says there are many mythics on the market and a price bubble what should happen is the price should fall down due to the scarcity of LE and the oversupply of mythics likely due to Avo farming. Ice Bear says loans are still possible with friends and there weren’t any public loaners until recently. Ice Bear says it seems like mythic prices must fall and loans simply just keep prices artificially high at this point. Also the main thing that makes moderation of loans difficult is proving something didn’t happen, proving someone didn’t pay back the loan. Ice Bear says there is no realistic way to prove it without looking at trade logs which take a lot of time and effort. Ice Bear is open to the idea of moderators having some authority to enforce loans in rare scenarios.

 

I don't know if anyone does this but there is something called collateral which is when you give someone something of importance to hold on to prevent scamming. In this case the loaner could give you an item of the value they want to loan. Its still risky but *slightly* less risky.

 

A lot of newer/ less wealthy players likely won't have something worth much to offer as collateral, which means that the group that arguably benefits the most from loans still has a harder time getting them.

 

Alright, so, I have my own personal take on this, largely due to my distaste for some predatory features of consumer economies that are at least sometimes found in videogames. My take may be biased, but hey, whose isn’t.

1. “Loans are the only thing keeping the economy going at the moment”.
This sentiment is somewhat flawed due to the nature of currency in the real world and in videogames. Real-life currency is limited by nature; ingame currencies, however, as is the case for WynnCraft, have a limitless supply. There are lots of ways to grind pure emeralds if you need them specifically, Seavale Reef and lootruns for pure emeralds being just two of them, so the whole idea of loans providing enough liquidity to keep “consumption” going is, frankly, dumb. It’s not some central bank doing this, but wealthy private persons.
And so, the place of loans and interest in videogame economies comes under question: how exactly would people taking out loans and repaying them with exorbitant interest to the same rich people who give out loans solve the problem of there being not enough liquidity if all that these quasi-bankers do is hoard LEs in their bank? The discussion can go on forever as to how to “fix” the economy, but rich folks giving out loans and hoarding even more money is definitely not the solution; that’ll probably break it more than fix it. No videogame economy has ever needed loans, and this one is not and should not be an exception.
Besides, why do you even want to take out a loan in the first place? To buy a Mythic? To breed horses?

2. The attitude towards luxury goods in WynnCraft.
I’ve seen at least 2 people on Discord in the last month begging others to help them run ToA so that they can repay their lenders: both were new players, and both wanted to breed horses. I can only assume that buying Mythics is another reason why people are caught in such “debt traps”.
Since then I’ve wondered why someone would decide to take out a loan to buy things that are rightly considered luxury goods. You don’t need that white horse, nor do you really need that fancy Mythic. Hell, I’ve been running with an Infused Hive Wand with 5 W6’s on my Mage for 5 years at this point. Never have I had the thought to buy a Lament, because I don’t need it, even if I might want it, as I simply don’t have enough disposable LEs for one.
Supply and demand are in place in every single economy of the world. This alone should solve the problem of the cost of horses and Mythics if need be. And hey, if you want to take out a loan to buy that 16-stack Toxo, then oh boy do I have a Depressing Helmet to sell to you.

3. The moral aspect of interest in videogames.
I don’t think it needs to be said that the biggest group of people actively taking out loans are new players: they are inexperienced, don’t know how to earn a lot of money, and want the fanciest and prettiest things like white horses and Mythics. Most are, on top of that, young, due to...well...the fact that this is, at the end of the day, a Minecraft RPG. And most don’t have economic experts for parents for them to know at 13-15 years that 5-10% weekly interest is extremely predatory.
These people can be very easily psychologically pressured by their lenders to think that they’re royally screwed if they can’t pay their insane debts back. One of the above mentioned persons even told that there was a mod observing their exchange; that was a bit over a week ago (by the way Traagic, if you still need help running ToA, do let me know).
If the mod team’s stance is that loans are the lender’s problem only, then this needs to be reinforced by refusing to act as observers, debt collectors or even as swords of Damocles hanging above the borrowers’ heads.
Even without quoting Exodus 22:25-27, it should be pretty clear that loans with huge interest on a Minecraft server of all places are not the most moral of things.

As such, we come to the conclusion of my, erm, "quick" take on loans. Do note that I hold no negative feelings towards private interest-less loans between two friends: after all, the borrower puts the entire friendship and their reputation at stake. Neither do I think that lending money without interest in general is immoral: irresponsible of the borrower and risky for the lender as it may be, you simply give back only that which you have taken, and not an emerald more. But loan sharks and debts with ridiculous interest that are even rarely enforced by some mods and/or some vague rules have no place in WynnCraft. Anyways, rant over.

 

Come on guys! The hell is your problem? You’ve given a stolen joke more likes than the original! Seriously! This is shameful, Wynn forums, quite shameful.

And you! What a coward! Won’t even respond to me! You’re even more shameful than they are.

 

If you want secure loans absent mod protection, create a consortium to manage adjudication and penalize in other ways.

 

I am likely going to be making a larger post regarding a few others concerns, but I can address some of your concerns now, since I feel like your stance is shared by the majority of people who do not support loans.
First of all, I run Ambrosia Loans, which is currently the most major centralized public Loan company on Wynncraft. This obviously makes me biased, but I'm going to be trying my best to stay unbiased in this post.

I do agree that the economy is not relying on Loans. I don't think that's ever or will ever be the case, as you said, money is infinite. However just because money is infinite doesn't mean peoples patience is. With the high price of mythics especially, many people cannot or do not want to put in the time to lootrun or run seavale reef for the amount of time it takes to raise 10+ stacks of LE. Loans with low interest rates allow those people to buy the mythic they want, and have longer to raise the money, than if they just did that from the start and saw the mythic get sold to someone else. Another very common thing for people to loan LE for is buying LQ sets, which in turn allow them to lootrun better and pay back the loan.

This point I'm afraid, at least for my business, is entirely false. The vast amount of loans I give it are >5 stx, to already fairly wealthy end-game players. The majority of loans are for sniping mythics, Discoverers, and things to that nature. It is very very rare for somebody under lvl 100 to request a loan, and even rarer for me to accept it.
I do agree with your last point, in that 5-10% can be predatory. However looking at the actual amount in many cases makes this a difficult distinction. For example, 5% weekly of say, 4 stx of LE. That is rightly ridiculous, and I would call that loansharking. That is 12 LE 51 EB / week.
5% of say, 32 LE, on the other hand, I would very strongly disagree if you were to call that loansharking. That is 1 LE 38 EB / week.

Again, I believe with that point you meant something more to the affect of my first example, which I have not engaged in, so I wouldn't know, but I hope whoever is doing that will not take advantage of any more people.

I think it's important to focus on the term "ridiculous interest," and find the difference between it and "reasonable interest." Of course I do not support actual predatory loansharks, but legitimate money-lenders that give reasonable rates I find too often thrown under the bus with these predators. Interest is a way for someone who is putting stacks of LE on the line to help out a stranger to make money.

 

I definitely see that loans are a challenging situation, and I know there is no easy way to just straight up solve it. Do we really want prices to crash though? Even if there's anything to do that would help avoid a total crash I think doing anything to put more raw out there would be worthwhile. Everything I'm saying is just my opinion though, and I'm really not as experienced as others so don't take me to heart.

 

To generally respond to the discussion at hand - interest is the price of time. People value their time differently, and I think it's a little self-centered to call some amount of interest "unreasonable" just because you value your time differently than someone else.

 

Bumping, would like more opinions on this.

 

to the top of the forums we go!