Champion Is Pretty Fair And Should Be In The Game - Change My Mind

4le for 8 Slots which you then have in your bank aswell and besides, what happens when you do run out of bank space? Also I personally wouldn't really say that it being 'inefficient' means it's not an unfair advantage: Champion has more storage space, giving them the advantage over someone who is not a champion since they have limited space. Therefore it is unfair.

In my eyes something being unfair isn't a gradient, it's a straight line. Something is either fair or it isn't. Just because it seems small doesn't mean it's not an advantage over someone else.

 

And 7 chestplates. And 7 leggings. And 7 boots. And 14 rings. And 7 bracelets. And 7 necklaces. And 7 weapons.

I'd be insane to store only 7 helmets on 7 armour stands.

 

If a champion were to receive 1 emerald every day that would be an advantage, but not an unfair one. This is an advantage, but not an unfair one. Right now you';re saying "what if you run out of storage space?" First of all: If you run out of storage space it probably wasn't because you had too much equipment. Second of all: This is still so incredibly inefficient it can hardly count as an advantage. There's no way to see what equipment is on which stand, a single slot of storage costs 32 EB. You do realize what you're saying right now?

 

Yes, in fact I am saying that besides your 21 bank pages that every rank has, you can go waaaaaaaaaaaay beyond this limit with countless armour stands that Champion offers. What I am saying is that if you had the emeralds for it, you could effectively double your bank storage space.

I am not talking about cost effectiveness here. I am not talking about how "x armour stands are cheaper after y bank pages than the (y+1)-th bank page" either.


First of all, indeed, I didn't run out of storage space solely because of my equipment. There were more to it like countless materials, ingredients, dungeon rewards, potions, misc. items, etc.. It'd have been very convenient if I could rid myself of the space occupied by weaponry and armour to store more of the afforementioned items. Instead I rid myself of half of the afforementioned items.

Second of all, unless it was changed since, Salted posted a screenshot in the 1.20 preview thread of how the armour stand menu looks like and his morph set with Collapse was clearly visible.

 

No, it's not completely fair at all. Pet tasks are ridiculous and the shops you can set up anywhere are irritating, I'm actually not too fussed about the bomb bell although it could be argued to be very unfair and I don't mind the extra perks it gets like free totems and whatnot. I would rather it's removed but people have already purchased it so that's out of the question now, change it so either everyone gets pet tasks or remove them entirely, simply get rid of player shops too, they are silly.

 

this is bullshit.

I definitely can use the argument "they dont know about it" because it affects the gameplay of any new player. Also why is a feature fair when people pay a lot of money??? WTF IS THAT ARGUMENT?

"Its still annoying" - thats my opinion, accept that. In my opinion it shouldnt be in the game, thats what your question was in the title.

The bomb bell definitely has an impact on bomb servers. Your estimates of 5 seconds dont convince me in the slightest :)

The build stands are more storage = payed storage = unfair. This shouldnt be like that either, look at the title of this thread, it shouldnt be in the game imo

If you have a laggy pc and only one monitor it takes always time to swich from minecraft to discord. You cant always depend on a damn discord (that doesnt even mention all bombs)
"hOUsiNg iS no GAmEpLay!" - that is hilariously ignorant. A part of the game is no gameplay? wtf. WTF. W T F

 

Another fact: items on a build stand have to function as a build skill point wise. You do realize how inefficient it is as storage.

Many actual champions have stated that pet tasks aren't as huge as people say they are. The shops merely give you more places to advertise, the exact same way shouts do, which is another paid feature.

I leveled up to around 80 without bombs, and at 80 i only used bomb parties on discord. Bombs are not essential to leveling,

I've been to multiple prof parties, their worlds all fill up in within 5 seconds. If you don't believe me ask Crokee, Graphicnovel, TravisNH, or literally any other proffer

THE BUILDS ON THE BUILD STAND NEED TO ACTUALLY FUNCTION SKILL POINT WISE. THEY ARE RIDICULOUSLY INEFFICIENT AS STORAGE.

Cosmetics are then also technically gameplay by your definition. "Gameplay" does not mean part of the game, "Gameplay" means providing a benefit in combat/aiding you when you're struggling with something.

 

Didn't you also get burned out and quit? And only level one or two profs without bombs?

I've done profs before 1.20, 5 seconds is definitely wrong. Very quickly, yes, but I'd give it at least 15 or so seconds from when the bombs are pinged. It was possible, if a bit unlikely, for you to get into a prof world by using /lobby and joining it quickly. Even then, "full" just meant a few minutes of spamming the world, not "you can't get in no matter what now".

That's not the point. They are an advantage. I don't care if they're inefficient, they are still an advantage champions have. Besides, who's to say people won't want to store extra full builds when their banks are full?

That's not what gameplay is. Creative mode in vanilla can be gameplay, just like housing. Pets and other cosmetics were not gameplay because you could not do anything with them besides create effects around your player. Housing is not at all the same, especially since it can be used for utilities like merchants and such (another champion bonus, since only champions can have houses in places where there aren't normally merchants). It is directly interconnected with all merchants, professions (block costs), and can be played around with however you want. Cosmetics such as pre-1.20 pets and player effects were not connected with other aspects of the game whatsoever.

 

combat, not profs. profs are intended to be optional and the majority of players dont do them.

I agree, delay should be extended, but it's not enough to warrant a removal from the game.

Getting 1 emerald per day is an advantage, just not one that should be considered because it's too small.

That will only save you like 15 seconds of time. Still not significant enough to warrant a removal.

 

sheesh

I can't discuss that anymore.

But saying that Housing is no gameplay but Housing = Cosmetics is just untrue.

 

It's not really an argument to say that just because other champions don't think they are useful that they're not useful, i imagine if people had access to them and used them they would find uses and besides, if they really are so inefficient why did the CT bother to add them in the first place????

Still doesn't really matter because it's still storage at the end of the day.

Sooooooo, such as pet tasks? 'aiding you' - like taking items back to the bank when your inventory is full?

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Oh and also another problem I have with Champion and housing is some of the placement of the exclusive balloons. The void - the rainbow completely detracts from the atmosphere of what it's meant to be. They could have added another balloon in Ahmsord to take you down and just labelled it. Outside the Gavel Gate - you're a new player, you've reached lvl 40 and you don't know anything about gavel but there's a quest on the other side of the ocean which you want to do. Alright so you either sail in your boat and go to llevigar with the seaskipper. So there's a little town dock thing where the quest npc is. Once started he tells you to head into the city down the path.

Gavel jounrey begins to play and you see the huge gate and the arches of llevigar above and.... a rainbow balloon just parked in the middle of the road and it says something like 'you must be champion to use this' (not too sure what it says exactly), if that's not an ad I don't know what is.

 

Ice Bear says it was full in 5 seconds but it was a fair competition to get there with no /switch or bomb bell. Ice Bear says people just want a fair competition when joining worlds that is all.

 

Making effective, strong builds may be rocket science; throwing random items that fulfill each others' requirements but otherwise make a dysfunctional build is certainly not. Relying on the latter for the purpose of storing items is always an option. If you manage to squeeze together 5-6 builds (either functional or just random messes) you already freed a bank page. If you have even more items and can make 10-11 builds you can free two. That ought to be worth more than "1 emerald a day". 3, take it or leave it.

And if someone has 20 Gravities... stop.

 

that's not how it works
(more of a meme than a remark, i think you already changed your mind on this when i'm typing this)

 

Not significant enough to be deemed unfair though

The CT added them as small QOL incentive. I asked Atlas Inc and lots of people there had full banks and said that they would never consider using build stands as storage. Pet tasks aren't significant enough to be deemed unfair.

Read above

I haven't changed my mind, although I do think Champion needs some changes, even in it's current state it's pretty fair and deserves to be in the game. "Wow, the Content team are people who need money to do things? I can't believe it!"

 

So? This argument is the equivalent of: "I asked 10 people on the street whether they currently have 100 dollars. They all said yes, therefore my conclusion is that everyone in the city has 100 dollars."

 

Can you please explain how you are determining whether disadvantages are "significant enough" to be unfair? In my eyes, any disadvantage that champion imposes on other players is unfair, regardless of how big it is.
If you gave one person $20 for something, and another person $10 for the same thing, that would be unfair. If you gave one person $20 for something, and the other person $19.99 for the same thing, that would still be unfair. Both of these things are unfair and should be made fair, regardless of how big the differences are.
You seem to be trying to say that champion's not unfair enough to warrant changing, but that's not the same thing as being fair. If that's not what you're trying to say, I honestly have no idea what your argument here is. If it is, I disagree, mostly on account of how champion slots work and how the "bug" where they fill normal slots as well hasn't been fixed yet and completely ruins prof parties for non-champions. Personally, even if it was fixed/removed, I'd still think champion is unfair and should be changed, but at least you'd have a much better argument then.

Also, CT doesn't get money out of this. I'm pretty sure that was just an honest mistype, but it's still wrong.

 

Ok, the thread has cooked for a while. Time to give my two cents quoting people from all pages, hope you lot like walls of text:

First a response to what I said:

Solid reasoning, however, for features on this server there's never much detail given about how it actually works. (In fact, I can't think of a single thing that was completely explained but mechanically too complex to write down in <2 sentences.) This is up to the community to figure out in +- 99% of the cases. The champion slots flowing into non-champion seems small and logical if you don't think about it too much. Considering how little information about how something actually works they normally share, such a small detail would not be something they share. Therefore, until it's officially acknowledged as a bug, it should not be treated as a bug.

Besides, they did advertise champion slots as "basically always be able to get into the server you want", which does imply that this is how champion slots are planned to work. If they didn't work like this, that near guarantee would be a lot less guaranteed after all.

The rest of this post is assuming that this is no bug, looking at champion in, as you called it, "it's current state"

Saying things like "Champion should stay" is a strawman argument. People are saying to change champion, not remove it.

It absolutely does, but depends on how you measure fair.
When asking "is champion fair", the question does not specify in which way it is fair compared by what measurement.
The most obvious assumption for what is ment would be: "does a champion, when compared to a non-champion, get advantages in regards to gamplay which a non-champion does not?"

The answer to which is undoubtebly yes. The question I'd prefer to ask is: to what extent can we give champions advantages over non-champions in regards to gameplay?

I agree with you that the majority of non-champions is unaffected by champions. However, prof servers are much less possible to get in to. As someone who does all crafting professions, this has impacted me (and all other non-champion proffers) greatly. I specify crafting rather than gathering because the introduction of gathering XP and Speed identifications kind of negate the downside that came with champions for gathering professions. Crafting professions >lvl 80 are much, much worse to level now for a non-champion.

Similairly, pet tasks have quite a bit of impact on loot runners but basically only loot runners.
Ask a champion who does alot of lootrunning if they get a use out of their pet tasks. They'll (most likely) answer that they can lootrun more efficiently because of it. This essentialy makes it easier and faster for champions to gain mythics.

Besides, as other people have already said. There's the whole bomb alerts were a planned wynntils feature which couldn't be made because it wouldn't be fair for other players, but now they made it into an actual feature thing. Which means that in the eyes of staff the benefits of champion do, in fact, impact everyone else detrimentally.


Alot of the post you make state that the majority of non-champions are unaffected. I agree witht that, but I don't think something which doesn't impact 99% of players, negatively 0.8% of players, and positively impacts 0.2% of players is a good thing to have.
(The numbers are made up, it's probably more than 99% of players who don't have >lvl 80 crafting and still level it, and the ratio between 0.8% (non-champion lvl 80+crafters) and 0.2% (champion lvl 80+ crafters) might differ, but the point still stands.)

My bank pages are absolutely full and I personally would use build stands as storage, but this is the kind of benefit which I'd personally be absolutely fine with champions having when asking the question "to what extent can we give champions advantages over non-champions in regards to gameplay?"
since it doesn't really negatively effect non-champions. Which is what I personally use for deciding to which extent I think we can give champions advantages over non-champions in regards to gameplay.

 

Have you used build stands as storage? There's no one saying that they have.

Yeah, honest mistype, meant admins. I mean, if you're going off definition it is technically unfair. But the advantage is slight enough to not be problematically unfair, hence the title "pretty fair" not "completely fair". It's also fair because you paid $200, you'd expect to get something out of it.

Everything you say is mostly true, I heavily support changing champion and increasing the bomb timer delay. However, this thread is about whether champion should stay or not. On pet tasks, I haven't seen anyone say it's a major benefit but I have seen champions say it's not as big as people say it is. Compared to the bomb bell, which lots of Champions say is a huge benefit. I wrote something about fairness and build stands above.

 

I'm not a Champion.