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Buff Qira Please And Thank You

Discussion in 'Wynncraft' started by hppeng, Aug 16, 2019.

?

Does Qira need a change? If so, what?

  1. No change

    2 vote(s)
    40.0%
  2. Pre-gameplay qira

    3 vote(s)
    60.0%
  3. Other rework (comment please)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
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  1. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    So, this started awhile back as a "brilliant" idea:

    Solo Qira with this:
    https://wynndata.tk/s/mqVZHa
    Also only basic weapons, accessories whatev
    Also HP pots but don't abuse them (on my final run I carried in like 5 and 2/3 hp pots)

    Try 1: The Intel approach
    https://wynndata.tk/s/wfshxj
    Results: failed miserably

    Try 2, 3: Upgraded wand to https://wynndata.tk/cr/473548223 and then https://wynndata.tk/cr/535050117
    Results: failed miserably

    Try 4: The first enlightenment
    https://wynndata.tk/s/d45w8i
    Results: Got first form down to 15.8k, could not break heal wall. Failed less miserably.

    Try 5: The return to intel
    Full dhydro accessories + t2 plain crafted wand
    Results: Failed miserably

    Try 6: Raw power
    https://wynndata.tk/s/tajs0q + summa and clockwork sideboards
    Results:
    upload_2019-8-15_21-25-53.png

    The final boss of the game needs to be a bit more final boss-y, don't you think?

    TL;DR: Buff qira thanks
     

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  2. YYGAYMER

    YYGAYMER HICH gaming HIC Master HERO

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    Not every players are senior anyway

    or nerf pots instead
     
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  3. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    I don't think pots were the deciding factor, even if they went down to like 3k I'm pretty sure I would've been ok

    The main issue is, the fight is absolutely no challenge past the first form

    And the "heal wall" is ridiculously weak
    ________________________________
    Also @YYGAYMER your turn
    tbh I lowkey want to try as archer, more glass gamble with pots but way more dps
     
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  4. YYGAYMER

    YYGAYMER HICH gaming HIC Master HERO

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    time to cut more skywoods fiekjxsoxjjwoxwpskuxikaud9a9
     
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  5. Druser

    Druser Heavy Melee time HERO

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    Agree on the fight being pretty easy after the first form, definitely disagree on the heal wall.
     
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  6. starx280

    starx280 The boy who cried lunar

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    Mhm, even with a 9.4k meteor Nepta build the heal wall didn’t break for me
     
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  7. Shots

    Shots A Masochist of the Jungle HERO

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    So because you beat something with a joke build, it automatically means it is "easy"?
    Well then, I guess we should buff Cybel since I beat him with the FF build!

    Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that the only challenging aspect of Qira is the first phase, the second phase is a joke, and the third phase is just a tedious health wall, but to essentially say "buff this because I did it with a meme build lol" with very little discussion about your thoughts on the design of the boss itself doesn't really show much at all of why the boss is too easy.

    That aside, as I said before, I agree with you in the sense that the last two phases are very weak compared to the first.

    The first phase is challenging for two main reasons, one being the dreaded flamethrower/web combo, the other being the dps test known as the heal wall. The flamethrower/web combo can be pretty irrelevant as mage, as you have teleport (as long as it decides to not spam your chat with "you can not teleport here" or whatever), but every other class suffers drastically from it. Archer and warrior have no way to escape this once stuck inside outside of walking, so, without proper defense, it's pretty much an instant death if she does this. Assassin can use vanish, but if the flamethrower has already locked on to you, you will also die without proper defense.

    On the other hand, the heal wall is painful for any class, and I'm quite surprised that you seem to not have trouble with it as a spell based mage (even with Judas, which can get through the entierty of the Hive on it's own outside of the turtles and possibly the fire division boss with a generic thunder build, I will still sometimes struggle with this heal wall, although this may just be due to the inconsistency of both meteor and thunder damage in general). It forces you to keep aggression on Qira, since she may decide to nullify any previous damage you had done to her within a moment, offering very little down time in the fight. Keep in mind she has a healbot ai (running towards the other mobs) as well, meaning around half the time she's moving away from you anyways. Sure, this applies to other bosses due to their natural hpr, but natural hpr is only on a timer of 10s and (typically) only heals a small portion of their hp, whereas the heal wall heals to a much greater degree. The minions themselves aren't really much of a threat directly, but more so indirectly since they consume your mana and/or time to dispose of (regardless of what phase you're on, but most notably on this one since you need to maintain your aggression on Qira whenever possible). Add all of these factors together, and you have one of the few challenging (to a degree) fights in Wynncraft.
    The second phase is an utter cake walk compared to the first and third respectively. Generally speaking, most melee mobs are a joke. This is mostly because melee mobs suffer from knockback way more than ranged, even with anti-kb when you properly utilize it, and are much easier to stunlock due to being able to approach them and/or punish their movement in general with ease. Sure, they'll sometimes have moves like meteor or multi-hit to make you back away from them, but said moves are very easy to predict and avoided (the only times where it's not being when push/pull become a major factor of the fight, such as Wybel/Cybel and Urdar). As far as I've seen, Qira very rarely seems to ever use pull/push, and even when she does, it has almost never been followed up with another spell. Vanish is pretty useless for a single mob since just casting a random AoE spell out reveals their location, and the web is nowhere near as notable without flamethrower and projectiles in general. She also has no access to her heal wall anymore, which means if you ever do need down time in your complete massacre of her in this phase, you can almost always feel free to do so.
    Her last phase isn't as easy as the second, since she has now swapped back to being ranged, but it's really just a dull, tedious fight. It's basically her first phase, except they took out the flamethrower+web combo and heal wall and replaced it with just lots of health. She can also just decide to teleport around, which basically does nothing outside of "well let me just run/turn from here to there real quick". It may disrupt the player from time to time, but since she doesn't follow it up with anything of concern almost all the time, it's pretty irrelevant outside of making the fight longer. The only real threat (outside of the danger that is always there, a.k.a lag) is a web into a meteor, but even that hasn't killed me as a glass cannon archer.

    tl;dr The first phase is challenging due to the combination of multiple factors, namely the flamethrower+web combo and the heal wall, the second phase is a joke since none of the spells she has truly make up for her being a melee mob, and the third phase is really just the first except with very little to no fatal aspects due to the absence of flame+web and the heal wall.

    I would like to know what you, and everyone else who wants Qira to be buffed, believe is the best way to go about buffing these two phases, though. Adding more spells and/or increasing her damage could result in the Cybel effect, a.k.a almost complete reliance on RNG to win or lose. Adding even more health and/or elemental defenses than they already did (I forget exactly when, but they increased phase 1 and 2 hp from 210k ish to 280k ish and increased phase 3 hp from 270k ish to 320k ish a while ago) would most likely end in just making the fight even more tedious than it already is, really just adding artificial difficulty by making the fight longer more than anything. With Wynn's current combat system, I really don't see how you could go about buffing her without falling into one of these two traps (which applies to a lot of Wynn's bosses if you think about it). Of course, if the combat system were to change, then perhaps other ideas could be implemented to better the fight.

    Also, if you're serious about wanting to buff her, a discussion about that would be better suited for general suggestions or feedback. If you're not serious about it, feel free to ignore literally everything I just said and stare at this picture.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Nukewarmachine

    Nukewarmachine Playing Wynn on a PS3 Controller since June 2018

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    I think Qira is hard enough already, and I don’t need her to be harder than she already is
     
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  9. Druser

    Druser Heavy Melee time HERO

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    I largely agree with your assessment of Qira, although I'll note that Archer can get out of web by spamming Escape 3-4 times, or at least move around enough that Qira's projectiles usually won't hit.
     
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  10. Epicness937

    Epicness937 Thesead water god. HERO

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    I thought Doctor Legendary was the final boss...?

    But imo qira should have second form buff but then just change the order so the current first form is moved to last
     
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  11. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    Try a non super fast weapon, or even just a non elemental weapon - if you can get 3k meteors you're good, its not a high bar lol

    To this, I'll say: Old qira was pretty cool, I liked the very OG qira (elemental immune, actually had health regen, hits about as hard I think?, didn't have flamethrower but did have tp and meteor)

    It made a more interesting fight because you couldn't just throw whatever build with a slow speed weapon at it and win

    And about the meme builds, my idea wasn't exactly to meme, it was to find the "minimum" build you'd need - and in my opinion if the minimum build is able to get away without any armor (or weapon!) with IDs then something's freaking wrong man
    (also what's this FF build O.o)

    It's quite easy if you have more than one player. Which is actually kinda cool.

    +1
     
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  12. Shots

    Shots A Masochist of the Jungle HERO

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    I disagree that old Qira is better than the new Qira. Old Qira is pretty much identical the third phase Qira, save for even more elemental defense and even more hp. It was really just everything negative I have said about this third phase except escalated even further due to this increase in health and defense. Also, you could still really throw whatever build you wanted with a slow weapon and it would work (my first Qira solo was with Hellstrand and random bs gear, but this may have been more because bomb arrow was still calculating ls/ms at the time). If you liked fighting old Qira, that's perfectly fine, but imo there's really not many positive things that stand out about it when compared to the new, multi-phase Qira.
    Meme build or not, it still doesn't really prove anything. Technically, the minimal requirement to solo all of LI is purely normal items (I forget who did this, but it may have been highbread/YY) or even no weapon at all (I believe Poke did this by using thorns, reflection, and poison). That by no stretch of the imagination means we should buff all of LI as a result solely because of the fact that you can do that.

    Personally, I wouldn't argue that "we should buff the boss because a poorly made build can defeat it", rather that "we should buff the boss because the most optimized builds makes it way too easy to defeat". Sure, these two ideas can go hand and hand depending on how you view it, but the difference between the most challenging bosses in video game history and Wynncraft is that even with the most optimized builds/loadouts, you will still struggle to learn how to properly dodge, counter, punish, etc. the boss and their move set. This is what Wynn's current combat system lacks in terms of challenge, being that it usually comes in the form of "how good is your build" rather than "how good are you". I should clarify, however, that I don't expect anything insanely difficult due to Wynn's nature, but I at least want it where there's isn't such a reliance on how good your gear is for the fights to be challenging.

    Also, FF build is everything from FF (with the inclusion of blue mask, due to the need for sp, and the exclusion of anti-static, since there are two chestplates) https://wynndata.tk/s/tsv0ay.
     
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  13. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    I generally agree with the idea of "not buffing bosses because weak builds can beat it" makes sense, but I think this is a bit too extreme.

    YY used normal weapon and actual build. .
    I'm using normal weapon and virtually no build...

    I don't think the FF build you sent comes close to what I scraped by with. Maybe that's just my opinion.
     
  14. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    I also have a feeling we're taking about different "old" qiras, the one I'm thinking about was back when atk tier was the dominant thing and the only mythic that could really damage it was alkatraz
     
  15. Arkade

    Arkade Who am I? HERO

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    What, 9 K nepta in my case obliterated her in seconds.
    ________________________________
    I agree. She should be something closer to a raid boss in my opinion. Right now she is a medium-hard boss for 95 lvl instead of a real threat to player.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  16. Shots

    Shots A Masochist of the Jungle HERO

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    Assuming we are talking about Qira when she had 400k hp and only one phase, I believe we are talking about the same one. If this isn't the case, then I would like to know, since that means there is an even older version then when I joined in late 2017 that I am not aware of.
    Two entirely different scenarios (which we will get back to momentarily). Of course, I can't tell you how YY's opinions were towards the bosses in this situation, since I have never done this build myself, but I can take a pretty good guess due to how difficult it was for me to do FF solo LI with pots, whereas he did it with none.
    Trust me, it really does. In terms of FF build vs. Qira and your build vs. Qira, you are correct, but in terms of FF build vs. LI compared to your build vs. Qira, yours pales in comparison in terms of difficulty. Cybel, Death Metal, Idol, and Doctor Legendary (possibly even Virus Doctor, but that one is up for debate) make Qira look like a walk in the park. It took me at least 15 ish attempts (and probably even more than that) to beat LI with the build. Keep in mind I ended up using heal pots to the extreme as well, since I probably wouldn't have seen the light of day for the next 3 months if I hadn't.

    However, according to you, just because I was able to do it regardless of the difficulty that came with it
    My apologies for getting somewhat sidetracked with LI instead of Qira, but do you know what all of those bosses that I stated, and really LI in general, have in common with Qira? Pretty much all of them are easy if you just have an optimal/meta build (yes, even the infamous Cybel can become a joke assuming you don't have to fight the true boss of Wynncraft, i.e lag).

    Again, just to clarify, I don't disagree with you that most of Wynn's bosses, Qira included, need to be buffed (although I still don't see how you could buff Qira, and quite a few other bosses, specifically without falling into one of the two categories I stated before with Wynn's current combat system). I just don't see "a meme build can do it so we should buff it" as a solid argument as opposed to looking at the specific design of the boss itself to figure out why the boss is easy if you are using an optimal build.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  17. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    Lol yeah this is like 2016 or earlier, pre-gameplay Qira I'm talking about. When attack tier spell builds were a thing, if anyone still remembers those fun times.

    Old qira was:
    - Virtually immune to elemental damage
    - Actually had nonzero health regen
    - Probably 3-shots you (so similar damage?) unless you were offensive archer or got meteored in the face

    Easy with 2 or 3 people, actually a challenge for single person to solo, balanced imo (except alka spell destroyed it in 2sec so yeah that was a thing).

    It 1) forced you to use neutral, you're playing by her rules now, and
    2) actually felt like an achievement to beat, instead of just this thing that you should be able to ez win

    Props to you for FF build vs. LI.
     
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  18. Druser

    Druser Heavy Melee time HERO

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    There's a reason Qira got changed - because 400k health, heal spell, and 1350 rainbow elemental defenses were stupid.
     
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  19. hppeng

    hppeng 0 intel is the correct amount of intel VIP

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    a) qira didn't have heal, just natural regen iirc, less RNG than current first form (can't count the number of times I got her to 150k and then triple heavy heal to full :<
    b) I guess our opinions differ
     
  20. Shots

    Shots A Masochist of the Jungle HERO

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    This is the heal wall if I'm not mistaken.
     
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