1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
Dismiss Notice
Wynncraft, the Minecraft MMORPG. Play it now on your Minecraft client at (IP): play.wynncraft.com. No mods required! Click here for more info...
Dismiss Notice
Have some great ideas for Wynncraft? Join the official CT (content team) and help us make quests, builds, cinematics and much more!

Assassin In 1.19 [52 Supporters]

Discussion in 'General Suggestions' started by Flow of Fate, Nov 8, 2019.

?

Would you support these changes?

  1. Yes

    53 vote(s)
    79.1%
  2. Yes, but...

    7 vote(s)
    10.4%
  3. Maybe

    4 vote(s)
    6.0%
  4. No, but...

    1 vote(s)
    1.5%
  5. No

    2 vote(s)
    3.0%
  1. Flow of Fate

    Flow of Fate A man and a mouse and a mint VIP

    Messages:
    6,239
    Likes Received:
    11,712
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Minecraft:
    The Identity of the Assassin Class in 1.19

    So, 1.19 is coming out soon, and while I’m probably going to do a rundown of my opinions of it, I’d first like to cover, what in my eyes, is kind of a huge problem.

    Assassin is about to be nerfed. Hard. Too hard, honestly. For those of you who don’t know, here’s the patch notes

    Spin Attack:
    - Used to deal 200% damage, now deals 150% damage
    - Element conversion changed to:
    1st tier: 15% thunder
    2nd tier: 20% thunder
    3rd tier: 25% thunder

    Vanish:
    - Used to cost 2 mana, now costs 1 mana
    - Now only lasts 5s at all tiers
    - Stealth used to give +30% damage bonus when vanished, now gives +70% damage bonus

    Multihit:
    - The knockback before the Force upgrade has been lowered
    - Used to deal 30% damage per hit, now deals 27% damage per hit
    - Used to cost 10 mana, now costs 8 mana
    - Now has 50% water conversion on the Fatality hit

    So these are kind of huge nerfs, and the buffs just aren’t enough to offset them for a couple of reasons. Currently, assassin kind of lacks a defined direction, being an odd frankenstein of warrior-esque range, mage-esque comboing and archer-esque damage, but because the class itself deals great amounts of damage and has a good stun, it doesn’t really matter for it. But these changes hurt what it’s good at most, which makes me worried about its future. Let’s go down the list.

    Spin Attack
    This is just a bat to the knees of spin attack, honestly. Not much to say here. The lower conversion rate is nice for Ivory use but that’s kind of it. It seems like the point of this is to encourage comboing spin with other spells, but it kind of misses the reason spin spamming is just better than attempting combos with multihit or vanish. The damage wasn’t the problem; it’s the fact that it applied its damage instantaneously in an insanely wide area of effect, meaning that it could be spammed easily and rapidly without needing to think about aiming. It was a low skill-high reward option. But the nerf doesn’t change that. It’s still going to be better to spam spin rather than combing with multihit just because multihit takes so damn long to do its damage, and the utility, range and ease of use for spin attack is just so good.

    Vanish
    Good concept, poor execution. REALLY poor execution. I like the idea of vanish being a cheap, dodge-like ability that grants bonus damage, but it just nukes vanish outside of combat. For example. I like to use vanish to do parkour more easily. Now, I have to contend with having to
    -reproc vanish every five seconds
    -deal with the constant FOV changes from the speed boost
    -not hop off the platform because of the ‘dodge’ at the beginning of vanish, every five seconds
    -do all of this while managing a sprint bar, mana bar and doing the actual parkour, as well as server lag

    And to top it all off, vanish is still worthless for boosting damage for everything but super slow melee builds, since it actually does less damage when comboed with spin attack than it currently does (in terms of spell multiplier, it’s roughly 260% now compared to 255% in 1.19), and because it just doesn’t play nicely with other parts of the class (looking at you, multihit/fast attack speed weapons). The hop at the beginning of vanish makes it really annoying to use in fights, especially with multihit and it’s point blank nature, or when trying to strafe. In addition, because mana doesn’t regen and actually drains in vanish, alternating between, say, spin attack and vanish just doesn’t work effectively; assuming you spend 50% of your time invisible while doing your combo, that’s a 50% chance that mana regen just doesn’t proc unless you pace yourself. And if you do pace yourself, you’re lowering your damage output anyways.

    But in my opinion, the worst part is that assassin, the class with the lowest mobility out of battle, now has even worse mobility out of battle. Seriously; having to reproc vanish every five seconds just to get from point A to point B, while managing sprint, potential input lag, the hop, and mana is just going to be a hassle, and I am not looking forward to it. And while other classes can spam their transport spells with reckless abandon, as a walk speed based assassin, I can’t even do that since the hop actually slows me down. The speed boost is what made it useful, and now I need to contend with the hop every five seconds just to get the speed boost. And I can’t ‘just get a horse’, because I’m not rich enough for one. This is the part that I legitimately hate the most out of all of this, just because the mobility already feels mediocre outside of battle, and now it’s going to be even worse. Like, the rest of the changes may hurt, but this change is the one the one that’s going to affect me the most. It’s like the opposite of a QoL update.

    Multihit
    Multihit was changed in the wrong way, and was changed badly. The point of multihit is that it’s a high-risk, high-reward spell. If you hit with it, you get a large chunk of burst damage. If you don’t you get punished hard. However, even before this changelog, it just wasn’t useful for that since its DPS was lower overall than spinspam, while being harder to attain. Now, it’s just a worse version of itself, and is even worse for comboing since the damage for comboing isn’t worth it and it still knocks enemies out of smoke bomb.

    Smoke Bomb
    Smoke bomb wasn’t changed, but it’s still affected by the spin attack nerf since it relies on the spin-smoke combo for maximum utility. It’s still a decent area denial tool, though.


    So what’s the point of Assassin now?
    I mean, sure, it has an insanely good stun in spin attack, but that’s literally all that it has now. It’s got worse mobility, a worse main damage spell, and a worse secondary damage spell. And I don’t know about you, but I am really sick of just spamming spin attack, which this update, unfortunately, doesn’t seem to change, while still making everything about the assassin that isn’t just being a gambling addict (spin to win) worse.

    There's also just a cruel irony in Assassin being relegated to stunlocking because its damage is too low. It's an assassin class. Like, the one class that should be shitting out damage like an ak-47 who's had Taco Bell. That's the point of an assassin; to kill stuff

    So how would I fix Assassin?
    The simplest method would just be to halve the time multihit takes and to make it so multihit no longer knocks enemies into the sky, away from your strikes and the smoke bomb you lay down. That way, it combos well with both spin and smoke, without neutering your overall.

    In addition, make the speed boost on vanish last for three minutes, and independent of vanish’s other effects. Archers have a speed boost and an actual good mobility spell; we should at least get one of those as well.

    But I have a different, and more fun idea.

    Assassin was originally meant to be a higher skill subclass based around comboing spells; let’s make it that again. And since it’s an assassin, let’s give it a new focus: High damage to single targets and groups at the cost of lower effectiveness against larger groups. First, things first, it’s base defense is now 60%, on par with archer.

    Fixing Spin Attack
    First, lower the attack radius from 5 to 3-4 blocks. Give it back it’s 200% damage, but distribute it over time; 140% of it is in the direct attack, but the other 60% is done in 4 more damage ticks over the next second. Next, replace the disease perk with a new one:
    Defenseless: Enemy combatants hit by this spell take 20% more damage for two seconds.
    This would make spin attack an excellent primer spell, while also giving assassin actual utility in team fights. Technically speaking, the damage of the spell is 215% since the aftershocks (so to speak) are also affected by the Defenseless perk.

    Fixing Vanish
    “But wait,'' you may be asking. “Disease was the stunlocking perk on spin! You said earlier that was the only good part of the class now!” And you’d be right! But it’s also brokenly overpowered using it without any setup- so let’s put it somewhere else. For example, vanish, which we’re also going to be practically revamping. With this revamp, vanish is now the core spell of the assassin’s toolbook; it’s basically a dodge, damage boost and primer rolled into one.

    First off, the basic parts:
    Vanish lasts 5 seconds still
    The hop at the beginning of the vanish now moves the player in the direction they are travelling rather than the way they are facing. (or rather, the direction they intend to travel; if they jump forward and then vanish while pressing the A-key, it lurches them to the left). It also grants a 60% damage reduction while hopping.
    Finally, this hop is useful for more than accidentally throwing the player right into the psychomancer’s shotgun blast. Use it while strafing to dodge meteors, flamethrowers, and morons charging you down like you’re a bullfighter! Use it in midair to jump around corners!
    The speed boost from vanish now lasts for 20 seconds, no longer ends at the same time as invisibility, and refreshes on vanish.
    Archers have it for three minutes, and can give it to allies. This is nothing.
    Vanish no longer gives resistance

    Next, the interesting parts
    Vanish now gives a 30% damage boost for 5 seconds after casting that doesn’t end on hit.
    Now this is where the fun begins. Stack this with the spin attack damage boost, and you start dealing a fuckton of damage.
    Your first hit out of vanish with blind and freeze opponents for a short time
    And here’s where spin’s stun perk went. Rather than being stuck on spin, this stun can be applied on any hit; multihit, melees, repeatedly applying this to a group of enemies in a smoke bomb while you laugh invisibly in a corner.

    Fixing Multihit
    Keep the lower cost and damage, but increase the speed that multihit hits so the spell only lasts half a second, or consolidate the hits so it has 5 at 54% and the sixth fatality hit rather than the current system.
    Fatality now throws enemies at the floor rather than into the air.
    Because it’s annoying as fuck having multihit launch your enemies right out of a smoke bomb, and also having to wait for your enemy to hit the ground again
    Fatality now stuns enemies for a short time if the enemy has the defenseless debuff
    Again, keeping in line with the powerful stun needing setup

    As for smoke bomb? It’s honestly fine as is.


    So what's this all for?

    This revamped assassin focuses on stacking buffs to deal large amounts of damage up close and personally, while avoiding damage itself by using stuns and avoiding huge bursts of damage with the vanish dodge.
    The basic combo of this new class is Vanish-Spin-Multihit rather than Spin-Spin-Spin. Assuming three spells a second, the new combo does a massive 884% spell damage in one second, without even counting the extra 187.2 damage from two ticks of a buffed up smoke bomb that could be thrown earlier. Smoke bomb mixed with vanish becomes the best method for crowd control rather than spin attack.

    Not only that, but the revamped class would play EXTREMELY well with powder specials. Imagine:

    You and two friends are facing off against a Corrupted Theorick. Your friends use the courage and curse powder specials, while you vanish and prepare. You spin Theorick, and then? You strike with a quake.

    Congrats! Theorick no longer exists. He's a fucking stain on the floor.

    In Conclusion; AKA the TL:DR
    Assassin is going to be extremely weak in the new update, and more reliant on spin’s stun locking than ever, which ironically seems to be the exact opposite of the intended goal. Vanish is the victim of questionable changes, and is about to be an even worse movement spell than it already is.

    Anyways, The conclusion for my feedback series is cancelled because I don't have the time, and also @JaydonTheWarrior I fully expect a similar thread from you about warrior.

    TL:DR for TL:DR
    Buff vanish.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019
    Theeef, Melkor, cjakeb5 and 35 others like this.
  2. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Likes girls of large sizes. HERO

    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    1,776
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    ;)

    Tbh I was only going to cover the new "Throw yourself up with uppercut"
    But challenge accepted.
     
    Flow of Fate likes this.
  3. Bubbles

    Bubbles Yep, that one HERO

    Messages:
    1,528
    Likes Received:
    3,574
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Minecraft:
    Yes please. Why does this make so much sense? Hello? Salted? My boy, look at this, this is so good!
     
    NajimiChan and SmileyAlec like this.
  4. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    710
    Trophy Points:
    75
    Minecraft:
    Hmmm...

    I like these. But I'd like to run some tests on your suggestion to get some theoretical data. Give me a couple of days.

    Also, poll please :)
    ________________________________
    Two questions btw for my idea:
    How does the vanish damage bonus/boost work currently as in-game? Does it apply on the first hit only? Or does it apply throughout a spell?

    What's the most common assassin spell combo?
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
    Bowajility, SmileyAlec and Druser like this.
  5. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    710
    Trophy Points:
    75
    Minecraft:
    This isn't possible to do in code, period. The Minecraft Server client doesn't report back what control the player is pressing to the plugin.
    And yes, theoretically one could get the current velocity direction of the player and use that, but I don't know if that'd be super good as you may get knocked back by a spell and then just vanish in the direction of the Knockback.
     
  6. Druser

    Druser Beta research sponsored by Chronozilla HERO

    Messages:
    4,081
    Likes Received:
    5,275
    Trophy Points:
    131
    Minecraft:
    For a general-purpose midskill cycle, Spin-Spin-Multi-Spin-Spin-Smoke for a 4-second cycle. Higher skill players could double the opening three for a total of nine (or even do that twice if they're quite skilled), stack multihits in certain specific scenarios, etc.
     
    Bowajility likes this.
  7. Flow of Fate

    Flow of Fate A man and a mouse and a mint VIP

    Messages:
    6,239
    Likes Received:
    11,712
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Minecraft:
    Vanish’s strength only lasts for your first hit or spell. Basically as long as you’re invisible you have it, but only when you’re invisible

    My most common spell combo is smoke-spin-spin-multi-spin-spin or smoke-spin-spin-smoke-spin-spin
    ________________________________
    Unfortunate, but I still think the utility of having it hop you in the direction you travel far outweighs the annoyances due to knockback
     
    Bowajility likes this.
  8. Bowajility

    Bowajility Proud no-ranker (because I'm waiting for a deal)

    Messages:
    829
    Likes Received:
    1,123
    Trophy Points:
    115
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    For me when fighting bosses it’s straight Multis until they’re in the corner, then smokes and spins all along the way.
     
    Flow of Fate likes this.
  9. Flow of Fate

    Flow of Fate A man and a mouse and a mint VIP

    Messages:
    6,239
    Likes Received:
    11,712
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Minecraft:
    Yeah this too, especially for ranged bosses that tend to stand still
     
    Bowajility likes this.
  10. tig

    tig Buff Lament | 8 Mythics Found

    Messages:
    2,008
    Likes Received:
    2,456
    Trophy Points:
    112
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    Wasnt archer supposed to be getting destroyed? Cuz thats nothing compared to this tbh.
     
  11. Flow of Fate

    Flow of Fate A man and a mouse and a mint VIP

    Messages:
    6,239
    Likes Received:
    11,712
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Minecraft:
    I mean archer’s arrow storm was pretty much halved in terms of damage but yeah arrow shield and bomb weren’t really hit that bad and arrow shoeld may be better overall now
     
  12. Druser

    Druser Beta research sponsored by Chronozilla HERO

    Messages:
    4,081
    Likes Received:
    5,275
    Trophy Points:
    131
    Minecraft:
    Arrow Shield lost blindness
     
  13. Flow of Fate

    Flow of Fate A man and a mouse and a mint VIP

    Messages:
    6,239
    Likes Received:
    11,712
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Minecraft:
    Wait it did?
    Wow that’s bad
     
  14. Druser

    Druser Beta research sponsored by Chronozilla HERO

    Messages:
    4,081
    Likes Received:
    5,275
    Trophy Points:
    131
    Minecraft:
    I would say that's a needed nerf. But combined with the Arrow Storm damage nerf feels like too much.
     
    Flow of Fate likes this.
  15. Flow of Fate

    Flow of Fate A man and a mouse and a mint VIP

    Messages:
    6,239
    Likes Received:
    11,712
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Minecraft:
    Yeah. That said, if the changes to the melee attack also affect the arrows in arrow storm and the rain from arrow shield then it’s at least going to be great for crowd control

    But if it doesn’t, then archer is probably going to be hurting. And man the mage meta is gonna be strong.
     
    Druser likes this.
  16. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    710
    Trophy Points:
    75
    Minecraft:
    @Flow of Fate

    SO

    I went ahead and tried out the new Assassin spell changes and yours on my own little demo thing. I wanted to see the overall damage dealt and the DPS (Damage per Spell Hit)

    So, I took @Druser's mid-skill combo and added a Vanish at the beginning. So the combo used here is Vanish-Spin-Spin-Multi-Spin-Spin-Smoke Bomb. These are all while under the influence of a mana potion. This is only to assume I actually had viable gear to to this combo with, which I don't for the most part.

    I also used 100 Dexterity and 100 Intellect as my base skill points.

    Afterwards, I used two builds, Cata and Nirvana, and ran the following combo above for both Assassin variations once. I also recorded the Damage Dealt overall and the Damage per Spell Hit (Yes, this includes things like Multihit spell hits. Imo, you should probably ignore that variable).

    Note: Defenseless and the Damage Bonuses act as ID bonuses (They're additive). So they don't multiply the entire damage calculation.

    Here are the results in video format:



    If you're too lazy to watch it, here are the numbers:

    Thunder Build (Cataclysm) Damage Dealt
    • 1.19 Assassin: 79,671
    • Flow of Fate's Assassin: 96,700
    • Damage Comparison: 17,029 Difference
    Water Build (Nirvana) Damage Dealt
    • 1.19 Assassin: 53,949
    • Flow of Fate's Assassin: 64,376
    • Damage Comparison: 10,427 Difference
    Hopes this helps with your suggestion. I will also say that trying out your version was much more fun than both the 1.19 and the current Assassin. Much more fast paced. I like it! :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  17. Druser

    Druser Beta research sponsored by Chronozilla HERO

    Messages:
    4,081
    Likes Received:
    5,275
    Trophy Points:
    131
    Minecraft:
    Yeah, those look good. That Nirvana at roughly the same dps as it currently would be, but more interesting to play.

    Edit: yes, I took into account the build.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  18. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Likes girls of large sizes. HERO

    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    1,776
    Trophy Points:
    130
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    I take back what I said, after a whole day of thinking, I have a fairly good idea of what I want to do with the warrior class.
     
    Flow of Fate likes this.
  19. CountBurn

    CountBurn Hackysack? HERO

    Messages:
    3,066
    Likes Received:
    1,756
    Trophy Points:
    125
    Guild:
    Minecraft:
    so assassin is less mobile now, how does this new vanish work exactly? what was so wrong with the previous vanish that it needed a change?
    also while I completely agree with your suggested changes, do you have any faith in them being applied?
    very useful thread thanks
    ________________________________
    I feel like assassin is going to have the problems that the previous warrior had, its spells wont match its range and mobility
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2019
  20. Flow of Fate

    Flow of Fate A man and a mouse and a mint VIP

    Messages:
    6,239
    Likes Received:
    11,712
    Trophy Points:
    217
    Minecraft:
    New vanish is basically current vanish but it only lasts 5 seconds

    IMO nothing was really wrong with vanish in its current state but the devs don’t seem to like the super long invis for whatever reason

    And honestly not really much faith so far given that no CT member has acknowledged this thread