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Dungeons [70+ Supporters, 92.2% Approval] Improving Dungeons [ Includes Demonstration ]

Discussion in 'General Suggestions' started by Novalescent, Jul 23, 2020.

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Do you like these ideas?

  1. Yes!

    72 vote(s)
    92.3%
  2. Nope.

    6 vote(s)
    7.7%
  1. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

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    Alright, 3rd suggestion!

    This is pretty long overdue, but the reason this took so long was due to some motivation issues. I also kind of rushed this one because I really want to get to the next one, so don’t be surprised if you find this a bit lower quality.

    Dungeons. Possibly one of the core features of Wynncraft outside of professions and mythics. It has been a feature that has surprisingly been changed very few times. The most recent changes to them were the key system and the dungeon token systems, with the newest dungeon being Eldritch Outlook.

    Now true, the builds and mechanics of dungeons have evolved and improved over time. But there are some issues with the system that have remained an issue for a very long time now, such as Dungeons being fairly easy to beat (Maybe with the exception of EO), and no Dungeon Instancing. I feel like there are a few features that one would typically expect to see in a Dungeon. In short, there is some “outdatedness” to the current way that dungeons operate.
    This case of outdatedness has made itself a very easy target in my “recreation scope” of improvements and revamps, much like Guilds. And like Guilds, I have some ideas that could help them to become more enjoyable and tolerable.

    And of course, as per usual, here’s a quick-edited video demonstrating a very small dungeon with some of the changes made to dungeons implemented. This is more of a “proof-of-concept” video than an actual Dungeon video, which is why it’s much shorter than most would anticipate.


    (Ya, a bit exaggerated)
    (EDIT: Made video public. Accidentally made it private.)

    Also, do note that this took over 30 tries to get a “perfect” run, so please appreciate how hard I try to make these videos appealing.
    A total of 4 human beings were driven to insanity during the makings of this video.

    Dungeon Instancing

    [​IMG]

    (So quiet in here...)
    Before we can get into dungeons, we have to address probably the most upfront problem with them right now: Dungeons only having 1 instance of itself.
    As of right now, Dungeons only have 1 instance existing in each server world that all players share and run through. While this isn’t exactly disruptive to the experience, it feels strange having all players run through the same dungeon instance.

    For instance, let’s say, hypothetically, 48 players felt the urge to do Eldritch Outlook at the same time for no particular reason. Every single player will be funneled to the same instance, making the dungeon itself a roflstomp, and making lag the actual, unkillable final boss. Let’s also say that you’re that one person hugging the door, and somehow did not manage to deal 1 damage to anything throughout the entire fight because there is no need to.
    This has personally bugged me ever since I did my first dungeon way back in ye’ ol’ days of Wynncraft, and I have been hoping that it would eventually be instanced for different groups and players for a while now. This hasn’t been the case yet unfortunately.

    So, let me try to suggest a new Instancing system, one that will be mentioned later in this post.

    First, let’s introduce two types of Instances: Global Instances, and Private Instances.
    • Global Instances are instances that are public to all players. This serves for any extra overflow of players in case we run out of private instances. This is essentially the current situation with Dungeons right now being a single, Global Instance. When joining a Global Instance, you’re essentially joining the Instance’s party, and you will be teleported to whatever stage of progression they are at.

    • Private Instances are instanced that are private, and only certain players can access them. Every other instance that is not the Master Instance will be a Private Instance.

    Ok, so we have instances. But how do we “instance” them? Do we hide players and their mobs? I mean, you could do that and that’s definitely possible. But that’s boring packet work that could take who knows how long! So, let’s try something different.

    Well as we all know, Minecraft’s world is absolutely gigantic. So much so that you can build a 1:1 scale of Earth on it! So, why not use some of this space?
    This idea is going to be a bit complex and I have to talk about some tech stuff here, so bear with me.
    A possible solution is creating multiple copies of the dungeon and pasting them in an area side-by-side, with some distance between them of course. How would you do this without having to re-configure locations and such? The key to this is utilizing relative positions, which is essentially redefining the origin point of a coordinate to another origin.

    This is some boring tech stuff and you don’t need to know much about it. Just know that it’s a total possibility and it does work. If you want info though, here’s a spoiler:
    Firstly, you would need a “master dungeon” that has all of the original position parameters that you need, such as teleportation, mob positions, and so on. Since all worlds have 1 instance of a Dungeon, this is essentially the master dungeon.

    Next, we need to convert these into relative positions, which is essentially moving their coordinate origin point, [0,0,0], to a custom one we define.

    So, we define this master point at a location that will be the [0,0,0] for all instances of the dungeon. For example, the Dungeon Entry spawnpoint could be a possible master coordinate, as this is a location that all dungeons will have. This can also be a block if you want.
    Defining this master point will convert all of the locations we’ve set in the dungeon to a relative position, with the master coordinate we just defined being [0,0,0] of those points. For example, if I have a location point set at [1000,100,1000], and my master point is at [900,50,900], then the relative position of that would be [100,50,100]. This calculation is simple vector subtraction by subtracting the master point from the location point.

    Finally, we have to define the dungeon origin location point. Now that all of the coordinates are relative positions, we can define the dungeon origin that is in the exact same position in the world space of the dungeon to the master coordinate. So like I said, if the master coordinate we define happens to also be where the player first spawns when entering the dungeon, then we will have to go to each dungeon instance, and define the “dungeon origin” as that location.

    [​IMG]

    The result of this is flawless syncing of all locations of the dungeon locations. Since all of the dungeons locations have been converted to relative positions, this allows us to take the “dungeon origin” point and add those relative coordinates to the origin to get the exact locations of where all of the dungeon points should be for that instance.
    What this allows us to do is to create as many instances as we desire with just a few extra lines of yml configuration. And with multiple instances, we can easily configure custom parameters for each one if we so desire, such as difficulty levels, loot scaling, health scaling, etc.

    So now, we can assume that each world will have a few instances or more. However, this spawns another issue: Now that there are multiple instances, how will we find our groups or run into them in a dungeon?? Wouldn’t this make dungeons actually harder since we don’t have the chance of running into players doing the same dungeon, which would make clearing it much easier? And how would joining an instance work?

    All will be answered in due time.

    Finding a Group

    [​IMG]
    (Sorry I'm late guys, I was in Detlas)
    Now before you instantly -1 this suggestion due to this, don’t go assuming that this is some instant group finder automatic TP to the dungeon, because that is NOT what this is.

    Currently, there are a handful of ways to finding a group: Global shout, pinging the Bomb Tracker for @Eldritch Outlook, gathering your squad, or waiting at the dungeon entrance for more players. However, for most players I feel only the 2nd and 3rd options feel the most viable, at least for newer players. The other 2 may be a bit better.

    Now there are plenty of ways on which we can make the task of finding a group easier, but I’m going to go with an idea that can be applied to almost every single other piece of group content in this game, because why design one idea around a single feature when you can design it with the intention to improve many other aspects of this game?
    A possible and ideal solution to allowing players to find a group for any piece of group content is to create an in-game, cross-server Group Finder. And no, I don’t mean like in every other RPG where you’re randomly assigned a group and teleported to the instance. Let me explain.

    [​IMG]

    Players who need a small group to run a piece of content can create a listing in the Group Finder. They can put in the title of their group, the max amount of players they’re willing to accept, and also have a level requirement if it’s something like the Hive. This listing will go cross-server, meaning other players who are looking to do the same content but aren’t on the same server will be able to see the listing.
    Players who want to join are referred to the lister, and they can choose to accept or deny those people. If they are accepted, that person transfers to the Group Maker’s server (Not to their location though), and they are put in an automatic party. This can only work if the server the player is on has any available slots.
    Once the player acquires the max amount of people for their party, or their server hits max capacity, their party is automatically delisted. The Group Maker can also delist the party themselves if they need to.

    What does this do for us? Well for one, it allows for players who need people to help run content with them easier. There’s quite a bit of group content near the endgame that some players need help with, such as EO, LI, or Qira. It can always be a pain to find groups for these things if you don’t have friends or guild mates to help you out. This makes the process easier, and also allows you to get to know more about this small community of about 1,000 players.

    Oh but remember what I said? This was designed with the intention of improving other aspects of this game. So we can take this one step further, and claim that this Group Finder system can be used to find Bomb servers. Players on servers with active bombs can simply list their group with a title of what Bombs are active, and players who are seeking those servers will be able to join. Now this might make the Bomb Tracker Server useless and also come with the possibility of people who jebait players into thinking that it’s a bomb server, but that comes with the territory.

    Now why do we need this? True, a Group Finder is skeptical in any RPG and I am familiar with the kind of worldkiller a system like this can be to the game. However, Wynncraft’s servers can only hold 50 players, which makes it much harder to find a party for any real group content, such as LI, Qira, or EO. This kind of group finder makes it easier to find players across servers who want to do the same content without making the ability to enter that content so trivial and easy that it becomes a stereotypical instanced LFG system.
    What about the social aspect of finding a group normally without this? Well in my opinion this makes the process easier. It doesn’t really inhibit the social process as you’re not being teleported in and out of the instance, never to see those players again. You still have to physically travel to the meetup location and enter the dungeon. So, you’ll be able to conversate with those people you group with before, during, and possibly after the run is over. Think of this as the Planning Parlour in-game basically.

    Accessing A Dungeon

    [​IMG]
    (Time's up, let's do this)
    So you got your group. You’re all prepared. Let’s do this Dungeon! Oh, but, wait, how do I even access the Dungeon Instance? And does everyone have a key?

    The current way to access a dungeon has been somewhat trivial ever since the Dungeons & Discoveries Update, when the concept of Dungeon Keys were implemented. This locked every single dungeon locked behind the requirement of a key via a Key Guardian, and you needed one to access it. One for every player.
    Now following this was a decent rework of every single Dungeon in the world, however it arose another issue: It is locking the Dungeon until you have a key. Wait didn’t I just say that?

    Locking the Dungeon behind a key is trivial due to that fact that it makes your attempt have to count. With Dungeons being one of the best ways to acquire XP right now, some dungeons being easy to do solo that you essentially blow through all of your keys, and some being absolute pains and real challenges that you don’t get enough attempts in. It’s a dungeon by dungeon issue. And what if a player in your group or you yourself runs out of keys? That’s not good.

    One possible solution to this is fairly simple: The party leader’s key will grant everyone in the player’s party access to the dungeon. This coincides with the new Group Finder idea above. This also reduces the amount of preparation and agony that each player in your party has to go through to get a key of their own.
    What this does is make Dungeon running more group friendly. Since each player no longer has to acquire their own keys, groups of players can now run the dungeon without having to worry about restocking on their own keys. This will also increase the amount of times that players can run the Dungeon, as now they can group up and combine their keys to run it many more times, and with a higher success rate because they are now in a party.

    Now we have to link Dungeon Keys up to the new Dungeon Instance System that I just mentioned. Players can choose whether they want to join the Global Instance, or queue up for a Private Instance. If they choose to queue up for a Private Instance and all of them are taken, then they will have to wait for one to become available. Pretty simple and straightforward.

    Gameplay and Progression

    [​IMG]
    ([REVERBED])
    So you’re in the Dungeon with your group now. Everyone has their weapons out, their food buffs ready, and their potions on standby. You can smell the bloodlust in the air...
    You all are standing in a line menacingly, staring into the depths of this piece of content that you must face. Content that is long, pretty easy, the main enemy is… beating your previous time to speedrun this for the XP and rewards. Oh, and, pray that you don’t die from lag.

    Alright, I’ma have to be frank: Most Dungeons in Wynncraft are fairly easy to defeat, especially with a group. There are a few that are difficult for their level, such as the new on-level Undergrowth Ruins or Eldritch Outlook, if you play it alone and at the appropriate level. But for most of the other ones, they’re fairly easy.
    Now combined with the new Group Finder and the ability for the party leader in your group to grant everyone access to the Dungeon, completing them in a fast time just got easier. That’s not a good thing.
    Dungeons are supposed to be a test of skill, and a legitimate challenge. I figure that you aren’t supposed to triumph in Dungeons at the later levels by yourself, and that you should at least bring a couple folks along with you to beat it.

    So I’m gonna list out some solutions that could be applied to help make dungeons more fun and challenging. Do note that these ideas are pretty generic, but they are still needed.

    • Increase the challenge of the enemies. Increasing the health, damage, and the kinds of spells that they have and you may encounter will help with this. They should be difficult to do alone, and they should also scale in health based on how many players you bring along with you.
      This applies more loosely to the early and midgame dungeons, and is specifically targetting things like Corrupted Dungeons and perhaps FF and EO.

    • Make Dungeons less linear and more option. All of the Dungeons in Wynncraft are extremely linear, and it can get really boring running the same path all of the time. Adding in more open-dungeon challenges and rooms that you have to enter to take down some baddies would help spice things up.

    • Add in more bosses and/or minibosses. Most dungeons in most MMOs have 2 or more bosses in their Dungeons, and I’ve always found it strange how all of Wynncraft’s dungeons only support a single boss. I think with the new Spell Scripting system that Wynncraft has devised, they could make some really neat fights, especially if they continue to improve it.

    • Less grind, more action. There are several parts of a normal dungeon, such as Decrepit Sewers or Lost Sanctuary, that feel they just have too much grinding to do. Sure it’s “action” but it’s not really that fun of action entirely. I think having grind rooms be less grindy, and instead making the mobs in there to be challenging and having interesting spell combos would be nice. Dungeons could also take advantage of the environment. In the video, the first kill room utilizes laser bombardments, which seems a bit chaotic sure, but it definitely added to the hazard of the dungeon and the fun of it.

    • Increase the length. I put this one for last as it’s probably going to be the most trivial out of this list, plus the 4 other ideas above indirectly accomplish this. Increasing the length of the dungeon to take longer means that you can put more meaningful and acquirable rewards at the end, or perhaps distribute the rewards or dungeon tokens throughout all of the bosses.

    So all of these are general principles that most dungeons adhere by in other MMOs. I’ve always felt like Wynncraft dungeons lacked these andI do believe that these will definitely add a “kick” to the dungeons. But these are incredibly generic compared to this next one (I think).

    Now I’m 100% positive that everyone reading this post is familiar with the premise that if you die in a Dungeon you’re immediately kicked out and voided of any loot acquired from it. In my opinion, this is pretty punishing, and if some of the principles above are implemented, then there will definitely be more deaths to come. It’s honestly not a good look.
    Now I’m sure there are better ways to handle death in Dungeons, but I’m going to go a bit more generic for this one as I think it does what it needs to without making the content “play until you beat it.”

    [​IMG]

    A possible change to the way Dungeons handle death is implementing an individual lives system. It’s pretty self explanatory. Each player will start with their own life pool, and when they die they lose a life. Losing all of your lives will boot you out of the dungeon and voiding you of any loot. By standard, players would have 5 lives to start out with for each Dungeon.
    This also affects the amount of loot that you gain at the end of the Dungeon, so having less lives by the end of the dungeon would yield lesser rewards. Think of it as -Loot Bonus or something.
    Having max lives will grant you a small amount of bonus loot at the end. Losing a life however will prevent you from gaining that bonus. You can think of this as the player having an initial +30% Loot Bonus, but when (and if) they die for the first time, they are knocked down to 0% Loot Bonus, and it goes negative from there. Sample numbers for how much LB you’d lose can be approximate to perhaps -15% per death after the second death.

    So why the lives system? Well having a group life pool would make it easier for griefers to have their way, and I don’t think anyone would really like sticking with the 1-death policy especially if Dungeons got harder. This life system is supposed to make Dungeons less punishing for death, while still having some sort of penalty for dying so that way you can’t take your life pool for granted.

    Phat Loots

    [​IMG]
    (I didn't get a mythic, what a scam)
    So you’ve killed a boss, or the final boss. Loot time.
    The standard rewards for a dungeon right now are Emeralds, Boss Tokens, and Dungeon Fragments, along with the occasional unidentified items. On paper, this sounds pretty decent. In practice though, it feels like you have to grind the dungeon over and over again to get the actual rewards you so desire. Not only that, but the emerald and item rain isn’t individualized, so players can pick up the items that were meant for you.

    So first let’s deal with that problem of non-individualized loot. It’s pretty simple actually: Just individualize the loot. It doesn’t feel exactly right for your loot to be stolen by other players simply because they happened to be in your vicinity when they picked it up. So compressing the loot that you get from a boss fight into some sort of openable Cache or perhaps just making the drops only able to be picked up by you would be a small, yet nice quality of life change.

    [​IMG]


    So next we need to address the grinding of dungeons for a specific piece of loot. I feel like this is also a fairly simple change to make.
    An idea to make this better is allowing bosses to have a chance to drop items from the token shop. Perhaps certain bosses (if multiboss support is added) can drop certain items. Maybe even unique ones entirely! These items would also be tradable while inside the Dungeon (except tokens), so you’ll be able to give items that other players need and would incentivize running dungeons with people.
    Ideally, these drops are fairly uncommon, and you aren’t always guaranteed to get one while running a Dungeon. This would also be why the tokens still exist, as you would be able to still work towards the item that you desire, while possibly still having a chance to gain it while running the dungeon.
    Oh yeah, and bosses would be able to drop Gathering Tools as well, because I’m pretty sure no one likes spamming Dungeons to get all of their tools.

    Lastly, I want to address XP. It’s somewhat a debate on whether dungeons should be allowed to be kept as the huge XP loads they are, or tone them down. There are pros and cons to each side and honestly it was hard to decide what I wanted to do for this. Though in the end, I had to make a choice.
    Basically, keep the XP amounts. This may sound a bit weird right? Given how the rest of this has been changing how Dungeons function and play, why keep this?
    Well, assuming Dungeons become much more difficult and longer and rewards are not as grindy to get, it comes together to balance itself out in the end, making the XP actually worthy of the Dungeon’s difficulty. I wouldn’t mind even seeing a small buff to Dungeon XP across the board if the difficulty is updated.

    Perhaps a bonus amount of XP on the first run of a dungeon for the player would be the only change I’d make so that way players instantly get the amount of XP they need right off the bat. Plus I don’t think players want to see the XP values nerfed given how much the Corrupted Dungeons are used for that singular purpose. In this case, they’d just be harder, and possibly more fun.

    Conclusion

    So combining all of these ideas, what does this add up to?
    The goal of this suggestion was to promote the idea of fun & challenge over grind & spammability. I feel it’s evident that the current dungeon system is made to be something to be grinded. Whether this is intentional or not I don’t know, but I’m personally not a fan of that idea for Dungeons specifically.
    These changes make dungeons more interesting, challenging, and perhaps more fun. It also increases the amount of group content that players can do with their friends as you don’t all need keys, and makes it less of a grind to get the rewards that you want from the Dungeon. The current XP amounts for each dungeon are balanced around these ideas, so it may be ideal to leave this alone. And as a bonus, it’s much easier to find groups for content or just for socializing.

    I’m sure some of you read this suggestion expecting some grand, original ideas for Wynncraft Dungeons, and RPG Dungeons in general. Truth be told, you don’t have to re-invent the wheel to make a good dungeon in an RPG. Adding some basic new functionalities to dungeons while also changing up some of the more outdated mechanics will still make for a nice experience.
    In my mind, Dungeons are supposed to be gaps in between questing and mob grinding to give you a fun and challenging level to attempt, while rewarding you in the process for completing it. Right now, Wynncraft Dungeons don’t feel like that, and feel like an addition to the grinding process rather than being an addition to progression. I’d like to see it changed in the future and I hope it does.

    Alright, roll credits!

    Shoutout to GalaxyDono (@Primed Suda) and two_of_wives (@jaxxios) for building the Dungeon! They suffered massive amounts of pings before it got finished.

    Following that, a list of testers who helped me out with this. The list is smaller this time as this was a more contained suggestion due to how old it was in the makings (a few months):


    Thanks for reading! And as always feedback is appreciated! (Moreso for this one actually, as I slightly rushed this idea…)

    And so, I move onto working on the the final one.
    I’m in the endgame now...
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  2. jaxxios

    jaxxios i dont have much time here - make this quick

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    this is kind of epic...

    however i do believe that dungeons are meant to be grinded, as do many aspects of an mmo, but overall i still think you did a good job on this one.
     
  3. Saya

    Saya yeah don't mislead newbies thanks VIP+

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    Moving dungeons away from their current state as glorified grindspots is always a good thing.

    Great thread!
     
  4. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

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    Fixed video. mb.
     
  5. WithTheFish

    WithTheFish Moderator Staff Member Moderator HERO

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    This is a really high-quality suggestion and I might say more on these ideas later once I've though about stuff like dungeon changes later, but I gotta say this now:

    That Group Finder is revolutionary. Finally, the torment of Bob's Lost Soul might finally come to an end for us all.
     
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  6. StarDraco123

    StarDraco123 UwU VIP+

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    Thanks to everyone who tested and recorded with us! This one took a while to get good footage. In particular, @Jabberdrake spent a lot of time attempting perfect runs of the dungeon with us, and I'm sad that he wasn't available to be in the final recording.
     
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  7. Saint_Purple

    Saint_Purple *:^)=King Jackass=(^:* HERO

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    So when are you being put on the CT? +1 for great suggestion, highly detailed, super helpful and cool
     
  8. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

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    Yo my boy @Jabberdrake deserves more than a credit listing tbh. Sucks that you couldn't make it my guy, after all we put you through.
    Someone donate this man a stack of LE for me I'm poor
     
  9. Neptune

    Neptune This is a custom title. VIP+

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    Another great suggestion! Very detailed and well put together.

    Now somehow combine Nii, Az and Ek rune to wipe out an area thanks.
    Az best bow, if you think otherwise ur wrong h.
     
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  10. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

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    az.
    upload_2020-7-23_23-32-1.png
     
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  11. thatswhatido

    thatswhatido Jake (thatswhatido) HERO

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    You have my approval!!
     
  12. thepicferret

    thepicferret Send help wynncraft addicted VIP

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    Doesn't feel low quality at all great ideas

    Let's hypothetically say that it was fun, who hypothetically wants to do another hypothetical event that obviously never happened
     
  13. Spenchilada

    Spenchilada Well-Known Adventurer

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    :0 I love this, as uh likable as dungeons are rn making them harder would be awesome! Super high quality work aaaaaaaa

    I was wondering what the hell you guys were doing when I kept seeing people say
    "uth"
    "uth az"
    "uth az nii"
    etc etc while I was dying to bob 100 times
     
  14. jaxxios

    jaxxios i dont have much time here - make this quick

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    it is the "simon says"-esque game mechanic in the runic vault, however it takes a more hardcore approach as if you dont input the correct sequence (that is reflected through the rune shields being setup throughout the fight, hence someone taking note of which shields go up as they are part of the patern) the whole party dies, but if you do manage to input the correct sequence of runes the final boss of the dungeon is defeated and dismantled.
     
  15. Mistral Marauder

    Mistral Marauder Surfing winds and chasing windfalls VIP+

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    Right. First off, let me say that overall, this isn't a bad idea.
    BUT.
    I don't think that dungeons should be replaced; this whole system should be saved for something bigger, like actual raids. Dungeons are effectively the core activity of the game; if it took you 30 tries for a perfect run with a familiar team, a mythic dagger and perfect gear, I can effectively guarantee that the average Joe isn't going to bother with them at all, and the whole game is going to suffer. While dungeons are in definite need of changes, this suggestion feels more like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


    This I support; an in-game LFG is something the game should have.
    I'm going to be frank here: most of this should just be saved for actual raids, especially the difficulty spikes. Dungeons as they currently are already fill a niche as a casual, repeatable activity that requires little to no time investment. They're basically the equivalent of Destiny's strikes; 10 minute, grindable activities made for 3 players to casually massacre enemies. Wynn could use difficult content, sure, but it doesn't need to remove its easier content to do so.
    This is my single biggest issue with this: difficulty does not equal fun. there's a reason most games employ difficulty levels; not everyone wants to spend 40 minutes repeatedly banging their head on a bullet sponge that can two shot them.
    These I agree with
    while this would make sense for something like raids, I think dungeon length is already generally fine; again, there's nothing inherently bad about the idea, but there's also no reason to entirely remove dungeons as they currently are.
    this I also have an issue with; this system manages to not be punishing enough within moment-to-moment gameplay, while also being too punishing within the overall gameplay loop. I'd say remove the extra loot bonus penalty after the first death, but add a respawn timer; something like 10-20 seconds, increasing for every death.

    (If there is a timer already, that feels like something that should be mentioned in the post)

    I agree with everything here too

    tl;dr Dungeons don't need to be revamped in such a large way, difficult does not mean fun, and the difficult, arduous 30 minute activities should be saved for something like raids.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2020
  16. TrapinchO

    TrapinchO Free help with nearly everything! VIP+

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    I agree that part, finder would be nice and that some dungeons need to be replaced, but I don't think they should be more difficult or longer. They aren't long enough to make it boring but they are long enough to make it interesting.

    I think you should not have "lives". If you die, it is usually your fault, either not being cautious or leveled enough.

    -1
     
  17. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

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    A bit of clarification on that part: When I say "30 perfect runs," I mean a run that had no bugs, very little mistakes (besides 1 guy dying), and not me dying. The only reason it took 30 runs was because of all of the bug fixes and mistakes during the fight that I made while recording, which caused me to die.
    The bugged runs were definitely not passable, but the no-bug runs were definitely do-able as we were basically at the final boss, so we would've won anyway. We just chose to back out because I died whilst recording.

    I can see your point and valid cases where this holds true, but I feel in this case it's wrong. In fact, I would argue that players do love difficulty in Wynncraft.
    Evidence of this can be seen with the Darkness Incarnate run. It's insanely hard, basically a Raid group of 8-16 is required to be truly effective enough to beat this boss, yet people of varied amounts, between 1 and 8 usually, try to do this boss anyway. Yes, most of the times they do fail but they keep coming back. I believe Darkness Incarnate is a perfect example of "difficulty done right," as the difficult part of it is knowing the mechanics and knowing how to play your class around those mechanics.
    Now in terms of the Dungeon video shown, like I said, it was more of a "proof-of-concept," however I did make that dungeon with the design to actually be easier than say DI or even Bob. I'd definitely say that it's a soloable piece of content, but it's harder (of course) if you do so. We had 5 people run the dungeon because we happened to have 5 people online at the time, in fact our original group size when we started this was 4 players, but we wanted to clear it faster so we brought in a 5th one, plus for that equal class composition. I wouldn't say the dungeon shown is "raid hard" but I wouldn't say it's "decrepit sewers" hard either.

    EDIT: I do understand that you may perceive my version of difficulty as raid-tier hard, which is completely reasonable given the difficult boss fight content I've produced. Though I am NOT saying to make Dungeons that hard. Raids, sure. Dungeons? Maybe less so.

    The lives system is supposed to tie into the additional difficulty, as with the increased difficulty you have a much higher chance of dying your first time through the dungeon than your 5th run. I get your point, but something like a timer would honestly just make it boring and make the dungeon take longer. That's basically increasing the length of the duration, which is something that you disagreed with actually. Now this would work well with current Wynncraft dungeons yes, but I wouldn't say it'd work here.

    Now in terms of "increasing length" ya I can see where that can be a bad idea and in some cases it is and I am against the idea in those cases. However I think there are some cases that are more acceptable (ex. Raids). The main problem with increasing the length of any content is making sure that the length is short enough to be not super time consuming and/or the content during that time is fun/enjoyable. Possibly a good example of this done right are Minecraft CTMs, my favorite example being Monumenta dungeons, which are multi-hour long dungeons but absolutely phenomenal gameplay for its genre. And Monumenta does have RPG elements to it as well.
    I wouldn't say elongate every single dungeon especially if the content isn't interesting, though I wouldn't mind if more endgame dungeons are longer and have more content.

    Personally I don't like the 1-life system and I feel like many others don't as well. I get what you mean but honestly I feel it's too punishing right now, especially for groups. Plus with the new Group Finder, it'd feel really bad to die in your group and to be instantly voided of any loot. It's not fun at all.

    EDIT: To both of you I don't mind showing the content more in-depth and allowing you to test it out yourself. I would like to sort some of these issues out if I can.
     
  18. TrapinchO

    TrapinchO Free help with nearly everything! VIP+

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    If I understood correctly, you propose to have 5 live for EACH dungeon run you do and you get less loot for each death. I have several question:
    a) If you die, you get tped to the sart of dungeon? Your current room?
    b) Why 5 lives? With the current difficulty it is WAY more than enough and I don't think the difficulty should be raised because of this.
    c) Do you still lose soul points (is it like normal death)?

    I would make it (if) 3 lives for ALL runs, which regenerate 1 for every succesful run (or timer, just idea). If you die, it counts as normal death but you get teleported to (idea: miniparkour) your current room. This would still give you chance when you die while not making you less cautious.
     
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  19. victorpotato2

    victorpotato2 Broke af HERO

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    Whats this? Inviting people to test out your stuff? Uwu beware an army might approach you wanting to test ur content (including me).
     
  20. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

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    a) In the current implemented system, you get TP'd to the start. Although I did intend to add checkpoints once you die, because yes it would get annoying when the dungeon is long and you have to run all the way back. I legit just forgot to implement that and say it in the suggestion too.
    b) I was kind of throwing out a number there as I thought it would fit, so it serves as a sample number. I'm mostly okay with a life count within the 3-5 range. It could also vary on which dungeon you're running and how long/difficult it is.
    c) When you lose a life, ideally no because that would get annoying. When you're booted, then yes you would lose soul points.

    That sounds like a neat idea and I actually like the concept, although it may a bit abusable. Assuming that a /dungeon leave command is added so players aren't locked in the dungeon or something, I'd be able to go over to Decrepit Sewers, complete that a few times to restock on lives, then resume my progress.
    Making those lives just for that Dungeon wouldn't be really nice as if it's something you have a hard time beating, then you may not be able to regenerate lives for that dungeon, unless the regeneration is increased of course which would then make it totally viable :thumbsup:. I'm definitely not a fan of the timer, as that's just Soul Points for Dungeons I believe.

    :sweat: