Progression Remove the ID system (among other things).

So you mean literally all the content there is to solo. Ok. So markets are off the table. This is a new one, since I just told people to use the market and this was brought up just after. Is there any class I should use? Also, how much of the game do I have to go through before you'd say I've made my point? Because if you want me to do literally every dungeon, every quest, every altar, and every event, I haven't done that even on my main; it's unreasonable.

RS is one of the most popular on the planet, last I checked. I don't see the issue in emulating it here.

We'll see how true all of this is when we iron out the details of this challenge.

Loot runners clean out most chests, so that's a separate issue.

I think you're not understanding what the problem is here: a failure of empathy.

 

I think you know that isn't what I mean. You can solo a challenge while still bringing in gear you bought from someone else using a trade market. Also, where did I say you have to do every piece of solo content? I said the build could be used to solo most of the potentially solo content, not that there was an obligation to. I'm not trying to challenge you to do every piece of content in the game.

If you're suggesting adding many more quests to the game, that would likely backfire. Quests should be quality over quantity, and adding loads more quests with Wynncraft's small development team would probably yield many quests akin to Lost Tower, one of the most boring and basic quests in the game.

How exactly am I failing at empathy by saying that most features are introduced in an early or mid game quest, and that they're rather hard to miss? If you're just talking in general, I'll admit I don't really see where you are coming from. I don't feel there is an issue if players are able to do all of the quests until A Hunter's Calling (EO is far too difficult to complete solo without an extremely good build or amount of skill) without much in the way of doing other content

Fair point, but I don't see how gear bought from merchants is more earned than gear from random drops. Emeralds are mostly just obtained doing any task in the game, similarly to random item drops

 

I'm starting to suspect English isn't your first language. I'm taking the whole "You can't get an 'Actually Good Build' by just killing mobs" bit you've committed yourself to as a challenge. And I'm telling you the last guy was talking about this while I was telling people they can use the market as an alternative to drops.

The part where you included "Legendary Island" (Which is harder than even Eldritch Outlook), and the only exceptions being "Raids", which are literally impossible to start alone, much less finish alone.

If you happen to speak Spanish or Japanese we can try those instead; make talking to me easier for you.

Yeah, now I know it's not your first language.

I don't think we can even have this conversation if you don't understand what I'm saying.

 

1. English is my first (and only) language and my grammar and ability to write coherently go down pretty dramatically when I'm tired.
2. Even if it wasn't, don't stoop so low as to take issue with someone's grammar/word choices instead of their actual arguments. Your response hardly has anything to it beyond insults. I'm done with this argument at this point, as your idea and reasons for these changes are fundamentally flawed, and you prefer insults to well though out points.

 

The reading comprehension is the problem.

The reading comprehension is the problem; you're not actually talking to me so much as you're imagining someone else talking and responding to that.

 

Hello everyone! Firstly, I would like to sincerely thank everyone for voicing their personal thoughts and experiences here

Before I share my own views, I would like to humbly share my concern of how scared I am contributing right now Attacking someone's sanity or personality is something that should not tolerated in a conducive discussion. Perhaps we should be more mindful of how we're talking to each other? I understand that feeling attacked might prompt one to feel like fighting back to protect themselves. However, letting our emotions take over diminishes the maturity and quality of our discussion. Let's all respect each others' views by not attacking them like this We are all born and raised differently!

I would now like to hand over a few of my personal opinions :)
To start things off, I would like to comment on Tour Guide's 5th point:

I would like to agree that implementing crafting level requirements sure makes the game more immersive and realistic to a degree. However, there are many players who play the game for different reasons of enjoyment. As a result, the main story quests shouldn't be gathering/profession locked, as this could possibly conflict with people who play the game solely for the lore and story. Perhaps some optional low-leveled side quests you can find by wondering around related to professions/gathering could be created specifically for the immersive audience though.

Thank you very much for reading my short response! :)

 

What are "the main story quests"?

You spent more time telling everyone to be nice than talking about the post and that amuses me.

 

Hello Tour Guide, thank you firstly for replying to my message

I do admit, I was writing this message before I hopped off to work and did not have adequate time to expand on everything. To expand on your question, the main story quests would be referring to the quests that unlock sections of the map (e.g. lutho, dungeons..), allow players to gain combat xp without grinding too many mobs, or explore the significant events in the history of Wynncraft as seen in this timeline: https://wynncraft.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline. Example quests would include Studying the Corrupt, Reincarnation, A Journey Beyond, A Hunter's Calling...

As others have mentioned, I also think it would be unrealistic to lock these pivotal quests behind high (e.g. lv 90 alchemy) profession/gathering requirements due to how much time each person has available, their patience, along with their personal interests in playing the game, just to list a few. Leaving the game more open by not locking quests behind professions/gathering requirements would give players more freedom, something many of us value in today's society.

To account for better enrichment of professions/gathering, perhaps we could add a few rudimentary NPCs with 1-3 line interactions for gathering/professions. This would enable professions to have more realistic purpose in the world of Wynncraft (other than the few quests we have relating professions) , other than being a money-making strategy for the late-game or a noticeboard floating randomly. These quests would involve simple interactions with the ordinary citizens/NPCs and their life struggles. Players will be given the option to skip the dialogue or not at the start also for those who just want the xp.

e.g.
Would you like to play the dialogue?
Yes - No

Yes =
NPC: Help me! I need a healing potion/magic wand/new dagger for my wybel!
NPC: Could you craft me xxx using xxx and xxx?

Reward = gathering/profession xp?

No =
No dialogue

These simple nuances could help enrich one's gathering/professions journey perhaps? Then again, it's just a random example I came up with on the spot. I'm not sure how much time the content team has to implement these small quality-of-life changes due to real-life commitments also. I wonder how the new Fruma update will be regarding nuances and quality...

This amuses me also ahahahahaha Definitely gonna give you credit for your observant nature Now that I think about it, I guess I prioritised (aus spelling) voicing my values there after reading the comments that didn't seem nice/not appealed to my morals.

Thank you everyone for spending your time to read my response :) Feedback is always welcome! I am quite aware that my personal definition of "main story quests" might not be the most accurate. Please, give me more feedback particularly here

 

That would depend on balancing. I'm imagining it so that quests still give you about 50-60% of the xp in that level (I'm pretty sure that's about what they give right now), then discoveries can fill in 20-30%, so you only have to mob grind for about 10-30% of the level's xp. The main reason I like this idea is because when I was just getting into wynncraft (1.19, yes I know I'm relatively new) I was really turned off by the amount of mob grinding I had to do to get xp. Quests just didn't get enough to warrant focusing on them alone, and I wasn't skilled enough at combat/classbuilding to be able to grind dungeons at-level. However, I really liked exploring, and actually thought I was getting meaningful amounts of xp for doing so until I looked closer at the numbers and was immediately disappointed, reluctantly going back to mob grinding. But yeah if this was overtuned it could definitely be problematic.

 

Ok, so what about the others? Like, assuming for the moment that even good profession requirements are entirely off the table for some practical reason.

Right, but I never implied any specific level requirements. If you were tasked with adding profession requirements to this game, would you start at the top by forcing people to hit 120 before they can start "A Journey Beyond", or would you start at the bottom, with a modest one for "Cook Assistant"? I don't say it explicitly because it's obvious that even if CT listened, they'd do the sane thing and use the requirements to make the game more fun- say... by using the requirements as an excuse for the quests to give profession XP. Strawmanning is easy; Steelmanning is hard.

A more fun version of this was just recently discussed on here: Making actual professions. You know how you bake bread in Aldorei for the quest? More of stuff like that. An NPC asks for your help, and instead of grinding for materials, you actually take up a job. Probably be good if it were repeatable.

Far as I'm concerned, getting mad about stupid things that don't matter is half the fun of a forum. I'm sure most of these replies are just having their fun. If they're not, they're just sad, pathetic little people, and that sounds more like a "them" problem than a "me" problem.

 

I know that I'm a bit late, but as a classbuilder and lore enthusiast, I would just like to mention a few of my thoughts relating to this discussion.
1) I do see where you're coming from when saying that mobs dropping gear is too free, since you do get a pretty steady stream gear coming in, but most of that gear is normal or unique, making it pretty much useless except for the occasional high level unique used in builds. I've only obtained the gear I was looking for from mob drops twice.

2) When people are talking about good builds, they are usually referring to builds that can be used to solo LI, EO, Forgery, Qira, and work in raids like TNA and TCC. Such items almost always require LI gear, dungeon gear, boss altar gear, hive gear, raid gear, and quest items. Good builds that don't use any of those items still exist, but usually are less powerful, or contain mythics.

3) I'm glad you brought up the bread baking in Aldorei, since when I first encountered it, I also wondered why it's only a one time thing. The CT could add more stations like that, giving a bunch of xp, while having the tradeoff of not obtaining the crafted gear, so not getting any money in return. Such locations should be questlocked though since otherwise people could just head over to a high level one and grind to extremely high levels in seconds.

4) I think having special quests reserved for professions, and only give profession xp, could definitely be cool. The only thing to beware of here is to not have any of them have any MAJOR lore. Note that I capitalized the word "major" there. What I'm suggesting here is to not have the quests have any lore with a major impact on the main storyline, or any lore that not know would be a problem, but maybe some smaller bits of lore about certain characters and areas, like for example a fishing quest where you go fishing with the Seaskipper Captain, and he tells you some stories while the two of you fish.

5) On a final note, mostly unrelated to the rest of the discussion, would you like to join the Professions discord server? I've noticed that you like professions, and that server is full of others who do them all the time. Plus, you can get their opinions on the topics discussed in this thread. If you're interested, just tell me, and I'll send you the invite in a private convo. (I'm pretty sure the forums rules don't allow the posting of discord links in public threads...)

 

It can't reasonably be what anyone here means, because it'd be literally irrelevant to bring up if that's the case. Either they mean something else, or they're morons. I mean, think about it: I'm making a post saying that mob drops have you ignore large chunks of the game. Why would they mention that the gear isn't enough for things right at the end of the game, after you've already ignored basically all of it?

Put another way:

"Mob drops make people ignore Time Valley!"

"What are you talking about? I can't even kill Qira with this stuff!"

Come on, they're not that stupid.

You know you can keep using it, right? That said, this is the kind of thing that nobody thinks about if the default attitude towards one of the game's mechanic is "Ew, imagine actually using the ingredients you get. Cringe".

Doesn't just have to be limited to special profession quests. Lots of them, especially at the start, can be slightly altered to incorporate profs and have an excuse to hand out xp. Speaking of seaskipper and the Captain, you know that one where you're captured by pirates and escape to the abandoned island? You finish the quest by scrambling around and touching everything uselessly. A simple change that can be made is that you just steel yourself for survival, start fishing, and days later, you're finally rescued (You know, except it's a cutscene after you make the rod and start fishing/cooking). BAM: Introductory fishing/cooking quest that removes a contrivance from the story and gives a logical explanation for the level increase.

I'm not specifically opposed to it. I tried messaging and adding you in game, but I guess you're waiting on my response here specifically.

EDIT: Never mind, I guess you were being polite or something weird like that.

 

My responses:
1) I think people are saying that random drops can't make good builds from just mob drops in the endgame, which I agree doesn't make sense in this context.

2) Yes. I used it to reach level 30 in cooking.

3) I think if that were to be implemented, cutting down the tree to get coconuts and wood to work with would probably make more sense, since there is already a farming introductory quest and a fishing one.

4) I'll create a forums convo and send the invite to you there.

 

This works too!

 

Thanks for waiting for my reply here :)
I do have some loopholes and other fallacies in the 2nd post I posted yup. While I won't address them, I'll get to the point and propose another compromise idea I came up with.

Hmmm, could you perhaps elaborate a bit further on what "others" refers to specifically? That would be great if you could

An idea that popped up to help account for those who want to do professions while feeling immersed in Wynncraft is through adding optional profession/gathering dialogue for optional profession requirements in main quests that can be skipped. Players who don't want to complete the profession part can simply skip it. If mis-clicked, they can always have the option to choose the right option they want to take again. Perhaps this compromise acknowledges both these XP combat and profession-interested players and their interests in the game. I'm not sure what profession level requirements would be a fair number to call for gathers/professions so I won't state any. I do believe that the number will be sorted out regardless to account for the general player base.

Personally, I would not pick any of the 2 choices. Instead, a compromise which considers all the parties involved should be reached. I would greatly reject these 2 options proposal due to the ethical and moral considerations relating to today's society of forcing players to complete profession requirements for the main story quests. The world is not limited to these 2 choices for sure, and there are definitely other possible solutions to problems. I hope my suggestion for optional profession requirements for main quests will help better than forcing players to do something against their interests in a game. While forcing them does create a larger player base immersed in the professions (and thus better realism/quality of gameplay perhaps), it doesn't not address everyone's concerns. I think empathy goes a long way here personally, other than just the interests of the game developers.

Thanks for reading my response everyone

 

You'd have a better idea than me. You're the one that brought up "Main Story Quests". I'm just asking about everything that isn't a "Main Story Quest". Since you last posted, I talked with someone else about making a small change to Misadventure on the Sea to incorporate Woodcutting into the quest and fix a contrivance. Does that count as a "Main Story Quest"? Is cutting down a tree for firewood detrimental enough to the fun that people's gameplay experience would be ruined?

Ok, so what does that look like? And again: What about the not-"Main Quests"?

Look, games make people do all sorts of things. They even make people do all sorts of things that aren't fun. That's kind of the point of playing in the first place. The important thing is to make the things you force people to do fun. People go out of their way to do Quests. If you made parts of Quests optional, you miss the point of the activity. Or should I just be able to avoid getting wheat for Cook Assistant? How about instead of fishing for Underwater, I just go to the kid on the ship and get the helmet for free and we just pretend I did it? (I'm being facetious, but the only example I can think of for this is All Roads to Peace.)

No. Obviously no. And I don't know that anyone's making a big stink about it either. You'll never make everyone happy, and if your concern is that people will be incensed at the prospect of playing a part of your game, it's time you sit down and figure out what exactly can be done to fix it. My suggestion? Actually make it part of the game, with rewards, and tasks. CT are no strangers to adding profession tasks to quests, and they're no strangers to adding profession XP rewards to quests; they can lean into it harder to everyone's benefit.

 

Not if you provide an alrernative. As I suggested (and you seemed to miss it), you could remove most existing profession requirements and just let the player decide whether they want to gather/craft or just buy it. And when that wouldn't be an option (e.g. you are on an abandoned island), you could choose whethet you want to pick up items/kill mobs (which would be made slightly rarer to compensate) or use gathering nodes.

I am happy because I don't have to do loop around with an axe and you are happy you can enjoy some woodcutting.

If you are talking about designing it, you have to get to the other end either way, so that argument is pointless.

The requirements would necesarily go up, especially if you made quests give prof xp. I don't thing I could just get some oak wood in the Silent Expanse.


PS: I have been a bit busy, but I didn't forget.

 

To reply to your question, "other" quests would refer to quests such as Green Gloop. These quests would not be involved with what I personally defined as "main story quests"

I also suggested to make parts of quests requiring professions optional since not everyone might be interested in it (im not sure if you were thinking about my optional dialogue suggestion here)

This sounds like a practical idea. People find 'fun' in different things due to their experiences. It is very difficult to flip everyone's fun into a single fun due to many factors. Thus, making crafting or profession level requirements in quests will affect those who care about combat only. Adding options will appeal to the diversity of 'fun', not just one 'fun'

[1] I don't have gathering tools with me -> play gathering dialogue
[2] I have gathering tools with me -> play non-gathering dialogue

[1] I'm not a skilled alchemist -> play professions dialogue
[2] I'm a skilled alchemist -> play non-professions dialogue

[1] I am interested in gathering wheat from the farm for the cake
[2] I want to kill the undead smart zombie that stole from the wheat farm

This could apply to quests outside of the main storyline also. Then again, the time availability of the CT team and their prioritisation would still need to be considered when creating this. This is a pretty big overhaul of the quest system in the game which requires a lot of work. This is not a quick fix or shadow patch

[/QUOTE]

"They even make people do all sorts of things that aren't fun"
The Wynncraft developers and CT have power over this decision


"The important thing is to make the things you force people to do fun"
Fun is a pretty hard term to accurately define in my opinion. Everyone has a different variation of it. It is shaped through many factors such as past experiences

"If you made parts of Quests optional, you miss the point of the activity."
It would address the other perspectives of what 'fun' is for players

"Or should I just be able to avoid getting wheat for Cook Assistant? How about instead of fishing for Underwater."
You could always kill a smart zombie who stole the wheat or fish to help appeal to the combat-orientated players. The dialogue would then follow another NPC crafting the item. You'd gain combat xp only though if this were the case since you didn't choose to gather

"You'll never make everyone happy"
That's for certain. Thus, make more options for players in quests (combat vs gathering). Different side quests aimed at professions + gathering could work as others have mentioned


Thank you very much for reading my response everyone

 

My point was that since discoveries only require you to be at an area it doesn't actually encourage exploring

 

This sounds like it would not only be harder to implement, but also just encourage you to ignore the professions aspect entirely. If we've gotten to the point where we're adding professions into quests, you have to go all in. Gathering, working, crafting, etc.; it's pointless to go through all of this trouble if you turn around at the end and say "... or you could just kill stuff". More freedom isn't better. More choices don't make you happier.

I know this is hard to imagine, but have you considered that not every profession task involves you grinding nodes for materials? Hell, in the very first quest I mentioned (Recover the Past) you do an alchemy task! Did that ruin your experience of the game? Did you curse CT for making you get materials for a potion? If I look through your posts, will I find you complaining that you should be able to just kill more bridge monsters to finish the quest?

Surely you don't think that. You seem kind of smart, and that's not smart. There's obviously a vast difference in adding quests with low requirements and working your way up to higher ones. If I need to explain what it is, I may have misjudged you.

I have no idea what any of that is supposed to mean.

There was something to remember? Don't tell me I'm the one that forgot.

________________________________

I had written out a whole response to this, but now that I think about it, I'm not seeing the point to your thing. There's no need to over-complicate them if you're just going to give people the option to ignore the task anyway. There are plenty of quests where you help others make things for you. You can just add any relevant prof XP gains to the rewards for your involvement. Quests give you any tools you need to perform tasks, so not having them on hand isn't really an excuse. And if you're just going to give people the choice to kill mobs, why give people the option to gather anything? Killing things isn't hard enough to warrant avoiding it.

Mine is. At least more of one than adding dialogue branches and making two alternatives to stages for a quest.

And by that picture you shared, it seems they're no strangers to making things "worse" to make them better.

You're missing the point because you're too agreeable to get out of the whole "I want everyone to do what they want" mindset. The real question being asked is "Who complains about this?" Maybe I'm missing out on some corner of this forum dedicated exclusively to getting rid of the wheat/fish gathering for the quests, and I'd like to know. Because as far as I know, this is just accepted as a part of the experience, everyone does it, and CT just has a great opportunity to add prof XP to some early quests at relatively little opportunity cost.

And even if people did complain about them specifically, replacing the tasks with yet another "Search and destroy" task isn't even the solution!

________________________________

You may not explore an area you've been to, but you'll definitely never explore an area you've never even seen.