World General Idea For Game Balance On Pve Games

stop nerfing things that are not unhealthy for the game. nerfing nighthawk for 30% OF ITS DAMAGE was a terrible way to balance the item. if the item team or content team has a reason or reasoning behind this other than "we thought it was OP" then feel free to explain the decision. if anyone needs an in depth explanation as to my reasoning behind this opinion then ask away and i am able to explain myself

 

Hey! I'm not an item maker nor do I speak for them but nighthawk basically allowed you to actually deal your arrow-storm's max damage from afar while also having twice the velocity of normal arrow storm which is a direct multiplier for arrow-storm spammability. Meanwhile normal arrow storm needs you to get close for even just most of your arrows to hit, not even all of them. Nighthawk as it is has a 400% spell multiplier instead of 600%(Normal arrowstorm, 500% for nighthawk in 1.19) which is basically 1/3rd of your dmg lost but the current spammability of nighthawk more than makes up for it so nighthawk is still totally usable and is still good, just less overpowered than it was in 1.19.

Conclusion:
The damage was nerfed but you can still spam it more than normal arrowstorm as it takes less time to fire, guaranteed that they will almost always hit, etc. Which makes up for the dmg nerf while still being good

 

Yes, please do in fact explain yourself. Nighthawk was way too broken and needed a nerf, why do you think it doesn't?

 

While i do find that there were several... questionable item changes, nighthawk was actually pretty deserved. Nighthawk now acts as a really interesting specialization for archer at the cost of your helmet slot, so you can choose to do more raw damage or to do more consistent damage. Yes, i think that the 1.20 item balance patch had some low points that to this day i still can't even begin to fathom why some changes were made or reverted, but nighthawk specifically was a deserved nerf that was done pretty well. I agree that swinging around the nerf hammer isn't the best war to balance a mainly PvE experience, but nighthawk was pretty cheap.

 

nighthawk was not meant to be a must use in spell based builds, it was supposed to bring a different playstyle to the table: weaker arrow storms but spammable. but nighthawk made arrow storm both spammable and higher damage, which WAS unhealthy, unless you look from an biased point of view. so yes, the nighthawk nerf was well deserved, because it was meant to bring a new playstyle to the table without removing the older one.

 

Heres the real kicker, bring back shaman t-rift totems

 

Shaman trift totems but the dmg doesnt stack :)

 

Dear god no.
That was op as all fucking hell.

 

Here's something we should ALSO bring back: Alkatraz bugged and broken 100k+ warscreams from 2016

 

hEY SALTd briNG this back bro

 

i appreciate the constructive comment! i really think they need to stop swinging nerf upon nerf to a lot of items though. they don't make the game all together too easy and it doesn't impact other people very much at all. my issue is that they nerfed its damage by 30%
that is an absolutely absurd number to nerf an item by in my opinion. if they had nerfed it by 15% making it 100% per arrow instead of 80% that would have been a balanced change i think but they nerfed it far too heavily and on top of that the nerfs to other items were uncalled for to say the least

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i agree that it needed nerfs but its not just nighthawk. that was just my choice example. i think they use the nerf hammer WAY too much to balance the game which makes fun playstyles much less appealing and makes late game builds less diverse. note to mention a 30% damage nerf is absolutely ridiculous. 120% per arrow to 80% per arrow was far too much and if they made it 100% per arrow i think that would be a balanced change

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my reasonings are in the other replies i made today. tldr i think that the nerf hammer is being used too frequently for lots of items and i think that 305 damage nerf on nighthawk specifically was WAY too much. a 15% nerf instead would've been fine if we are talking healthy game experience.

 

ok i'm going to make the argument on why nighthawk is still very good very simple here

ready?

nighthawk more than halves the cast time of arrow storm
nighthawk less than halves the damage of arrow storm
boom.
still more dps.

 

Ironically, the actual effect the nerfs have is the exact opposite of what you think. They usually tone down certain builds that are downright oppressive, like Nighthawk being a must-use for archer spell dps before all the necessary nerfs came in and cancelstack being insane with Necrosis. Surprise, surprise, both haven't been gutted (reasonable nerfs happened) and both are very popular in the meta still.

Have you read anything said so far? How do you still think this?



Powercreep is a far bigger problem for Wynn that's less easy to see if you blindly say "nerfs bad". Capricorn was in an absolutely fine state and got a significant SP buff to be in line with new items, a change that puzzled quite a few good classbuilders. Wynn's item pool has gone up in strength an absurd amount over the past few years, and it's especially apparent if you look at older items that haven't gotten changes. It's downright tragic how many items are relatively unusable due to the progression of the item pool. Melee% as a stat is another small tragedy, but that's less relevant to the current conversation.


have a quote. may not be 100% accurate but it sounds right, i think.

 

sigh...

Let's compare:
Normal storm contains 60 arrows, each arrow carries 10% damage, making a total of 600%, over the period of 1 second.
Each arrow stream contains 20 arrows each. Each stream is also 15 degrees apart.

Hawkeye storm contains 5 arrows, each arrow carries 80% damage, making a total of 400% over the period of 0.25 second.
The arrows are fired in a straight line.

Reading this, we can immediately see that:
Normal storm has higher total damage
Hawkeye storm has shorter duration


First of all:
Say, in a realistic situation, our example wynncraft player can click 9 clicks per sec extremely accurately and is repeatedly casting Arrow Storm.
Wynncraft cancels arrow storm you previously cast.
A wynn spell is 3 clicks
In this specific situation, we assume that all arrows hit the target regardless.


Normal storm would have 0.33 seconds to fire all, which is not enough. Effective damage is reduced by 66%, from 600% to 200%.
Casting this spell 3 times we have 200 * 3 = 600% total

Hawkeye storm would have enough time to fire all of its 5 arrows during the 0.33 seconds time window, being as short as 0.25 second long. Effective damage remains unchanged.
Casting this spell 3 times we have 400 * 3 = 1200% total

Second:
Say, realistically, how often will you get the chance to actually connect three streams of normal storm? two?
At most, when is far, you can only connect one stream of storm. I think that connecting three stream would requires you to be in within three blocks from your target.

Hawkeye enabled damages that is equivalent to two streams of storms of 400% and you can be at great distances away from your target.

 

it does not feel good to play. in the past 3 patches i have not seen any buffs to any playstyles that i enjoy which feels incredibly bad. i may be just ranting but the meta and balancing are really not well addressed and it would be nice if the CT would release a patch note list of nerfs and why they happened.

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yes. i have. i understand nerfs are good in lots of scenarios but in lots of playstyles they aren't necessary, the most egregious in my opinion being agility items being moved to MS instead of MR. like i said before, a nerf on Nighthawk was not a bad thing. a 30% damage nerf in my opinion was a bit too much. i understand the numbers on it are better than regular arrow storm and it SHOULD BE. its a playstyle completely built around arrow storm. if they were to for instance add a note to the passive where it lowers bomb damage to compensate for the higher ST damage i wouldn't be mad and honestly it fits the items playstyle change much better.

I understand the numbers sir. i understand that the item still increases the dps of arrow storm. does it feel good to use? not as much as it could. do i still think a 30% damage nerf was too much? yes. i also think that if they lowered bomb arrow damage to compensate for arrow storm being stronger and more accurate i think that would fit the items theme and playstyle much better.

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now all of you, i appreciate your viewpoints and they have been enlightening but in your analysis of the dps of nighthawk vs basic arrow storm you forgo the truth that basic arrow storm can and does hit multiple enemies. most often you consider only single target in that analysis. lest we forget that many boss battles do indeed have large hitboxes that can be hit by all of the arrow storm streams and if not all most often 2 of the 3. if we take that into account then the dps if actually more or equal while still having the helmet slot open. a flaw in that argument is that you are comparing a single target ability and an aoe ability to a single target dps test instead of taking in all factors.

 

Too bad that it has came to personal preferences. I don't use Hawkeye either.

R.I.P Arrow Bombs, Arrow Shield. Definitely not useful yes mm myes
Not like Arrow Bombs has a big ass AoE and Arrow Shield sometimes comes in useful yes mm myes
"completely built around arrow storm." myes not like repeated cast cost penalty don't exist mm myes

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thank you

what are the chances three streams of arrows connect to one mob again? each stream has a spread of 15 degrees.
what are the chances it will line up? then for mobs you have arrow bo-
oh wait "its a playstyle completely built around arrow storm."
huh, R.I.P arrow bomb... such a great tool but forgotten.

^

Let's count! How many bosses has large hitboxes that does not requires you to stand 5 blocks away!
...
....
.....
Able to connect 2 streams on The Canyon Colossus boss.
(unreleased) Nexus of Light boss is 7 blocks long but big man do be zoomin

Spell duration is 1/4 btw

a flaw in that argument is that you have not factored in spell duration while typing "if we take that into account then the dps if actually more or equal while still having the helmet slot open."

 

i never said you shouldn't or couldn't use bomb or arrow shield. in fact its necessary for spell rotation and survivability. I'm aware that they are necessary but its clearly an item that focuses on arrow storm and i think we can agree on that at least. i get that nighthawk pumps out arrow storm faster than basic arrow storm as well buuut if there are multiple enemies, basic arrow storm is better for aoe and nighthawk is better single target. that's just undeniable. I again, as stated before, think that the nighthawk passive should be high high high single target damage but nerf things like bomb arrow mana cost or damage. it would make a whole new playstyle that has high risk, high reward and it would also make a clear divergence in playstyle to ensure that both sides see play and viability in the meta and still stand by my opinion that 30% of its damage being taken was too steep a nerf

edit: and to clarify, i do appreciate the discussion and your point of view


edit 2: also you forget unravel used to have 1/4 MR and conduit used to have 3/4 MR

i think agility is a bad melee spec ESPECIALLY as an archer main

 

I still don't get how this makes sense in your head, why would nerfing bomb do anything about how broken nighthawk was? You just cycle storms.

High risk high reward doesn't work when the far safer option does more damage. Pre-nerf Nighthawk was so dominant that it was required to have comparable dps, which made non-nighthawk spell playstyles basically obsolete.

This isn't some opinion or different point of view thing, it's simple game balancing and the nerf had to happen. 1.19 nighthawk was unacceptable and was a problematic "only viable option".

Post-nerf, both playstyles are healthier and actually exist in their own right.

 

yes. you would cycle arrow storms instead of cycling bombs and your aoe damage would suffer dramatically while your single target would be stronger. do you not understand how a single target ability should do more than an aoe ability? are you also aware of the fact that if you miss you have a higher loss than if you had an aoe ability? its also quite easy to miss nighthawk storms especially on fast bosses which there are plenty of. i appreciate the discussion but you guys are leaving out important information that is very relevant to the usage of the items and playstyles. the raw numbers are not all that matters.

 

last ditch effort.

please cycle arrow storm -> arrow bomb repeat

no.
in the past 5 MMORPGs and every single RPGs i ever played, AoE deal less damage on multiple target and Single Target deal more damage on one target

wynncraft gameplay does not involve any commitments to attack, i could cast arrow storm -> arrow bomb repeatedly for the next century or so at somewhat high cast rate and my mana wouldn't ever go out
unless you are using a build that cost 3 mana per storm for whatever reason, get a better build.

wynncraft gameplay does not have high commitment attack, its more like a hack and slash like Soulworker or Maplestory, not Monster Hunter or Dark Soul.

i do not think i did

i think i already also explained about the probability of connecting three streams of storms. that's not entirely numbers.