Lets Fix Defense. [now In Game.]

Welcome to possibly the longest general suggestion you've ever read. I'm dividing the thread into sections for easier reading and better organization of the many changes I discuss. Such a long thread is necessary because there are so many suggested changes to fix the broken Defense system we currently have, as it barely functions and isn't balanced.

For reference:
Class: Base Defense
Warrior: 1.2
Assassin: 1
Mage: .8
Archer: .6

Spoiler: The Defense Cap

Summary: Make Defense Multiplicative Not Additive

The current system has a cap to the damage reduction defense can negate, being 95%. While this is necessary to prevent warriors from negating all incoming neutral damage (100%), there is a better way to fix this without incurring the other issues that additive defense entails.

Spoiler: Neutral Defense Formula Suggestion

Variable names in order of appearance in formula followed by (corresponding symbol):
Net Damage (N)
Defense % (P)
Defense Points (D)
Defense Class (C)

N*(1-P)*(1-D)*(2-C)

To make this easier to follow, I will give an example of how the current system works and compare with my suggestion. Right now the base defense of a class either reduces or increases the effect of the defense stat, then resistance is added on top of it, and finally, its capped at 95% neutral damage reduction. The current formula is:
base defense + 80.8% (150 def points) + additional (war scream or vanish), then its capped at 95%.
This means both assassin and warrior cap at 95% neutral defense, while mage caps at 60.8% neutral defense without war scream, and archer caps at 40.8% neutral defense without war scream.

If we use multiplication for calculations instead, we can drop the cap entirely. That means our second reduction is multiplied to the result of the first reduction. When calculated with multiplication:
warriors max at 87.712%
assassin max at 83.68%
mage max at 76.96%
archer max at 73.12%
This not only removes the need for a defense cap but also fixes many issues like archers' inability to tank and warriors' low requirement for max defense.

Fixes
- No need for hard defense cap at 95%
- Archers and mages can spec for tanking
- Warriors and Assassins can no longer reach 95%
- Warriors now need more than 78 defense to reach max

Spoiler: Element Defense

Summary: Calculate Elemental Defense Last

Currently, the elemental defense calculations make little sense, much less function. Elemental defense is simultaneously the only viable way to tank damage and also useless. Elemental defense simply reduces the base damage of incoming attacks. Base damage is a combination of the base damage of your opponent's weapon plus their skill points.

This is an issue because elemental defense modifiers are applied after the base damage is calculated, which means when the base damage isn't reduced to 0 before modifiers are applied, then players take a shit ton of damage. But there's still another issue: it makes negating the damage of a high attack speed/low base damage item all too easy. Weapons like Pure and Thrunda crack can almost or entirely be negated by element tanks and mobs with high element defense. At the same time, weapons like Stinger and Alkatraz have far too much to effectively block making defense irrelevant. All these problems exist in PvE AND PvP. There's no in-between for defenses, it's either all or nothing. Receive all incoming damage or negate all incoming damage.

While Salted or a few other gm's point this out as a feature used to encourage the use of slower attack speed weapons against high elemental defense and higher attack speed weapons against opponents with weaknesses. Both he and the remaining members of the team need to realize that isn't the case. It doesn't make players do what they wanted and breaks the balance of the game. Fix it.

Spoiler: Defense Formula Suggestion

Variable names in order of appearance in formula followed by (corresponding symbol):
Net Damage (N)
Attack Speed Modifier (A)
Elemental Defense (E)
Defense Points (D)
Class Base Defense (C)

(N - (A*E)) * (1 - D) * (2 - C)

I suggest moving the defense reduction to the end of the formula instead of the front, then making the attack speed of the weapon multiply the elemental defenses of the enemy. The effects of the fix are best shown in an example:

Let's say I hit a mob with 250 thunder defense with a Thrundacrack. My Thrunda just so happens to hit the lowest possible damage of 3700 (Uppercut, no ids.) My element defense times the attack speed multiplier, so 250*4.2 resulting in 1050 thunder defense. Now subtracting the new defense reduction from my damage at the end gets 3700-1050 (3700 being Thrunda's base uppercut damage.) means I dealt 2650 damage instead of none at all.

This fixes Elemental Defense which enables other forms of tanking, reduces the effect of elemental defense on low base damage weapons, and uses the attack speed multiplier to balance damage instead of base damage.

Fixes
- Overall more balanced
- Makes attack speed effect damage done
- No more immortal warrior element tank
- Makes rainbow slap less effective
- Rainbow can do some damage to armored targets rather than 0

Spoiler: Defense Stat

Summary: Make Defense Reduce Incoming Elemental Damage

You may have realized if elemental defense is patched then only agility is able to mitigate incoming elemental damage because defense doesn't affect elemental damage taken. When combined with sections 1 and 2, including defense in the calculations makes sense as it balances defense with agility when calculated after elemental defense. Then it's making resistance affect neutral only will finish off those changes.

As a summary, the calculations would be as follows:

The same situation as before but I'm now hitting a player with max defense with my Thrundacrack.
((All damage calculations)-(Element defense * attack speed))(1-Defense stat)
So (3700-1050)=2650*(1-.8) = 530 damage inflicted
Up 530 from the current 0 damage.

This fixes the issue of defense being the worst stat point per point and prevents rainbow slap from being the king of damage reduction. Armor like Leo and Adamantite would actually be viable.


Fixes
- Defense is no longer the worst stat
- Almost never a way to negate all damage
- Items like Adamantite are usable
- Defense is exactly as effective as agility

I would like to thank both @SilverMirror and @Major_Lue for their help on this suggestion. Both of them helped greatly, and I hope for their support on the idea.
I'm tempted to @ Salted to get to the heart of the issue because I know he is reluctant to fix what needs to be fixed simply because he likes it the way it is. I'm hoping such a simple list of fixes and seeing the community's support will encourage him go to make necessary changes, even if they aren't exactly as I described.

Note: None of these changes are meant to be the end all be all best solution to the issues we are facing, but all of them are very simple ways to fix our current systems.
This thread is meant to describe basic changes we could agree on to fix the game. I hope salted is smart enough to realize his game and the community needs him as well.

Now comes with slightly Salted support.
Salted confirmed that the first and third suggestions are meant to be how this is all calculated.
(So no he didn't directly support them but very close)
As for the 2nd one, Salted has not yet spoken. We will wait.

Spoiler: Why are there no negatives?

I would like to clarify something. People seem to think that me saying there are no negatives is some kind of praising of my own system. Allow me to clarify, its supposed to mean there are no negatives moving from what we have now to this. There are still negatives that this doesn't get to, but in order to change those we would need an entirely new system, one in which this thread isn't about. This is about optimizing our current system, without needing to change much more than a few lines of code.

If however, anyone can find negatives that this adds to the game (Not already existing ones, simply based off this being a very changed version of our current system, and not a new one)
Please inform me, and I will add them.

Click here for formulas as I don't think people realized they were here.

Spoiler: For people who want to do math.

Warrior's DC: 1.2
Assassin's DC: 1
Mage's DC: .8
Archer's DC: .6

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Neutral defense:

variables:
Attack Damage Gross (AD)
Defense Stat (DS)
Defense Class (DC)
Defense Bonuses (DB)

AD*(1-DB)*(1-DS)*(2-DC)


-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Element defense formula:

Variables:
Attack Damage Gross (AD)
Attack Speed Modifier (AS)
Defense Elemental (DE)
Defense Stat (DS)
Defense Class (DC)

(AD - (AS*DE)) * (1 - DS) * (2 - DC)

 

people like you are the ones keeping general suggestions from its collapse as a subforum; this is a really great suggestion and i appreciate the effort you put into it.

 

@awesomely2002
Your account isn't linked to anything, and even it was, it looks like your level two.
I suggestion you come back once your a higher level and understand the issue.
Becuase I can promise you that at the very least the first suggestion is needed.

 

You need an editor or grammar checking program like Grammarly, cause this was a bit hard to read. Otherwise, great post!

 

Yea, its hard to read. It's a block of text, and then him praising his own system

 

I did use Grammarly
(I deleted this, because I just realized how much privite information it gave away if you looked at my favorites hot bar thing)
And I wasn't, I legitmenattly couldn't think of negatives.

 

Ah those are some valid points, nice to see you perspective on how to fix defense.
I remember my old fix defense post, good times. (I won't link it due to age)
Anyway, lets look at your ideas:
1) yes it would fix the problem and would help completely remove the problem, I only have a difference in taste on how to balance it.

2) a good and quick fix, but I think the elemental defense stat was maybe meant to nullify faster attacking weapons easier. I would prefer maybe a better base line for mobs/players or maybe even a rework in fundamental mechanics. However, even if this is the case, there is nothing wrong with your idea it again fixes the problem and still allows for the current system to continue.

3) ok this is the reason I had to make the Damage Reduction Multiplier and spent so much time explaining it in my old defense post. I did consider this at first, but this causes a huge snowballing effect and would simply to to strong to only make defense be able to affect element damage and leave it at that. Here is where it really causes problems: 19.2%(defense) x 19.2%(agility) x 80%(warrior) x 80%(scream) = 2.36% damage taken. That is just too effective to let exist. I ended up making a grand formula that would make it have less of an stacking effect, but no average person could really understand the math and it looked really overwhelming. Also Strength and Dexterity would still be more or less useless compared to the other ID's.
In the end I believe this part needs a bit more thought and complicated formulas to get the balance right, but you are not wrong in saying that defense should also block elemental damage.

 

The last suggestion is thought out, keep in mind, that getting max defense and agility is very hard.
I purposely made it so you always take some amount of damage if your actual hit, in order to balance this idea.
I do understand that it would only be 80% of the time if you managed to have max agility, max def, and good element defense, but that isn't only very unlikely, but if it was, it wouldn't be a 2.36% damage taken.

Though I do get what you're saying, them stacking is kinda.
extreme. This is, keep in mind, still better then the current system if not perfect. I literally don't take damage as it is.
In fact, in its current state, the same issue comes about if you can manage to get 150 agility and 78 defense.


One more thing, you said the current system is meant to make higher attack speed do less to element defense. my system still does that, hints why the defense of the enemy is multiplied by the attack speed of the weapon.

 

ok I did not mean to insult you with saying you did not think that idea through, I am just saying that it needs a lot of though put in to make sure it is balanced. Also Life Steal and Regen benefit alot when damage is lowered, that is another concern I have that with sufficient reductions you could become immortal on any class... especially mage...

ah misread that...

 

No no, I didn't take it as an insult, your perfectly fine.
Damage, in general, is increased overall with the changes, just lowered on archer mostly.
A max defense warrior will take more damage then he does now, by quite a lot, same with an assassin.
However, I do understand that it is a worry on the mage, as its melee is a bit extreme.
But understand, while those to classes will take less neutral, they will also suffer the increased damage take on element defense, as it again, will no longer be completely unavoidable, you will always take some.

as again, the new formula would be as follows.
((All damage calculations)-(Element defense*Attack speed))*1-Defense stat.
Meaning you will always take some unless your element defense is so high that it can someone negate every single bit of a attacks damage.

And again, thank you for the feedback.

________________________________

Note, I'm currently having a friend reword everything.

 

I haven't read this, but looks fnacy, upvoted

 

f/unexpectedreddit

Anyways, this post seems to fix most of the issues, although I don't have time to do the math at the moment. +1

 

+1 support since I love going defense mage

 

While you can figure out the formulas on your own, I'm currently writing them out to make it easier to-do for people.

 

can we make element potion or increasing the skill points gives you an Element Defense too?
like potion of strength lvl 95 gives you +100 earth defenses or if we increase strength means increase the earth defense by %

 

Why would we do this though?
Not saying its a bad idea, just give me your reason.

________________________________

I know this is random, and I'm sorry for asking but, what does f/unexpectedreddit mean?

 

Joke at how the reddits are organized as r/something (r/wynncraft, for example) and how reddit has upvotes (affect what shows up on, for example, "hot", or "best".)
They used the "upvote" but this isn't reddit, so I twisted one of the more common subreddit-types (r/unexpectedinsertsomethinghere) into f/unexpectedreddit (forum: unexpectedreddit)

 

Ah, fun.

 

wait i know you

 

Who would have guessed that, vote bb.