Game Design Balancing Issues With Li

Why?

I feel like the Legendary Island is the perfect end-game challenge for this game, except that It isn't a challenge.
The Bronze tier, in my opinion, is perfectly fine except for Corkus Accipientis' Elf form, which drains your health faster than anything else besides Idol and Cybel in LI. If the Accipientis' damage was slightly adjusted to the rest of the enemy's in this tier the Bronze tier would be spot on.

The Silver tier is where most problems start because of how ridiculously hard Idol is compared to all other bosses and how easy Yahyabot and Death Metal are way too underpowered compared to Idol, there are safe spots for Yahya and you can easily survive the jumping stage while being on a horse's back, but I do understand that Yahyabot is a bit of a meme so I don't mind that not being touched.
Death Metal just dies too fast man, there's nothing else to say about him. His damage is fine, he can multi-hit you and drain your health extremely quickly, but he usually doesn't have time to do that because of its extremely poor survivability and NO, having extra forms doesn't help because they die just as fast.
(I will touch on why Idol is so hard and how it could be changed, also the same with Cybel)

The Gold tier is a joke, apart from Cybel who one hits because fuck you. This is the tier where it just starts feeling like an emotional rollercoaster, you go through MoW and Robob with ease because they're easier than Virus Doctor who In my opinion actually fits the bronze tier and is balanced, unlike MoW and Robob who just have lots of health and either cannot hit you with a multi-hit or when you do get hit by It you take 3k damage, as If a poorly made tank-mage hit you with a meteor, then there's Cybel. The main problem isn't Cybel, it's his little followers that kill your frames more than anything, after which big boy Cybel comes in and uses his Fatal to either do 2k damage to you or 40k, also good luck killing the 5th form.

The Diamond Tier is meant to be the hardest part, right? Well, It isn't because the "big 3" of Cybel, Idol and Corkus Accipientis still exists. This guy just has a lot of health and slightly better multi hits than MoW and Robob, but it's still weaker than Idol's flamethrower or any other ability for that matter. I almost forgot about the tnt because of how irrelevant they are, I actually haven't found out what they do, I'm gonna assume explode but you gotta trigger It, which won't happen because you're killing the boss and face tanking its hits.

Bosses

You could argue that the last part was basically the same thing at this - but I feel like it's too vague, so I'll go a bit more in-depth on bosses

The Mummyboard

This guy is perfectly fine for the first enemy, decent damage and a somewhat lacking sense of survivability. no complaints here.

The Virus Doctor

I do think that the bugs have too much health but other than that, no complaints.

Corkus Accipientis

Too big of a jump in power, the other enemies in this should either be buffed (which I'm against) or this one should be nerfed, this fucker has five forms, three of which are somewhat of a problem. The first form is a good filler, the second form does way too much damage for something in the bronze tier, the guard is fine I guess, the fourth form is just annoying to kill but other than that fine and the last form is just a magma cube that does little to nothing other than move 'round the place

Matrojan Idol

This guy would be the hardest boss in LI If It wasn't for Cybel's followers, forms 1-6 has a flamethrower and a multi-hit which either gets you down to barely any health or instantly kill you without a defense potion, forms 7-9jump around the place with insane health regen and then multi-hit your ass until you or you and your friends die to It.

Yahyabot V4.04

This guy is a just a meme, but the safe spots in the stages should be removed and the use of horses makes it extremely easy because the mobs have normal walk speed and low damage (Other than the jumping stage, where as previously mentioned, you can just go on a horse's back and don't give a damn), after which you just hit him with your fist and he drops dead. drugs are bad kids

Death Metal

This is the part where I question the people who made the Legendary Island, having more than one form and putting a bunch of other mobs around a boss doesn't make It hard, this guy dies in less than a minute because of it's poor survivability, If you get hit by his multi-hit you may get really low but that won't happen because he just dies too quick, yo.

Mechorrupter of Worlds

This guy needs to buffed, the only "powerful" thing about him is its health while it's damage is utter garbage.

Robob

Same problems as MoW but less damage, the swords usually don't hit you because they're slow, oh also he has worse damage.
Cybel

This guy is basically a mage with fatal, but It has lots of little followers around him that drain your frames instead of your health. No boss should be able to one hit a player, even if it's completely RNG (because Cybel kinda works like a Fatal, from my experience anyway). The fifth form is also extremely hard to kill and should be nerfed, but its damage is the biggest problem, but there's also several problems with the settings, like lack of space.

Dr Legendary

Meet possibly the most anticlimactic boss ever, Dr. Legendary. He doesn't really do anything besides teleport and sometimes multi-hit you for like 5k damage, his arena also has TNT scattered around the place, but you have to detonate It so it's pretty useless. He also has kinda a lot of health but that doesn't really matter when he can't kill you.


Possible fixes

I will be updating this part of the thread because I'm extremely tired while making this currently, so excuse me If I'm a bit vague.

-Nerf the virus bugs' health
-Nerf the Corkus Accipientis' damage in It's elf form
-Nerf Idol's damage, expand arena space (@NormalBoardL)
-Buff Death Metal's health
-Give Robob and MoW more damage and less health, lessen arena space (suggested by @NormalBoardL)
-Expand Arena Space for Wybel
-Make tnts explode randomly
-Also, please fix the barriers

@ethanoot helped making this thread possible, so please give him some hate aswell :)

 

The real problem with Idol (besides being hard a/f) is that he might spawn another instance of him when he dies.
And after that happening multiple times, you're basically fucked.

 

Yes, but that's a glitch meaning it's not an intended feature (which further shows how fucked up LI is in some aspects)

 

*cough* the reason why idol is super hard is bc multihit and arrow storm is broken atm

 

This is hate and feedback

 

Essentially, Yahyahbot is supposed to be a survival type challenge, and the problem is that it's so low in damage and easy to dodge that you can easily avoid getting hit and it doesn't matter much if you are. I would suggest buffing a lot of the damage values, and also using a lot more elemental damages, as warrior neutral immunity shouldn't protect you as much as it does here. I was thinking having each vision having the boss himself do a different elemental damage based on the area. They could also make use of the Burst mob AI, as it's much harder to dodge, especially from close range. Speaking of which, the arenas would benefit from being smaller.
He may be based on a meme, but he's not an easter egg boss. He's a silver tier LI boss, and that means he should regardless be some kind of a threat and challenge.

How about making the swords faster?

The whole point of the bugs is that you're not really supposed to be killed, which is why there are so many. It's what makes the fight unique - it's effectively a timed element. Beat the boss before the arena gets too flooded. The longer you take, the harder it gets.

What I'd love to see here is a more structured battle against a large machine, a bit like Quartron and the Fallen Factory boss (without the grinding). I think this would serve as a really unique battle, more suitable for the climax of something like LI. I envision you having to battle your way up to Dr Legendary's cockpit and fighting him there before he pushes you out and you have to fight a changed and damaged version of the mech. These sorts of boss battles may be more effort to make, but they add more interest and variety. It also makes sense in the context - Dr Legendary wants to create the ultimate mech, does he really settle for a human-sized machine?

 

Great points there. I also think that Dr Legendary fight should be something unique, me and ethan discussed having "power supplies" that essentially make him weaker and weaker.
For example, having one that's quite weak for his defenses (loses elemental defenses).

 

eh ill just take it from the possible fix lists

nah, cause if u haven't fought the original Olux Plague Doctor, 2 of the 3 locust types that spawn in the room (for plague, not virus) aren't mean't to be killed, they're just there to annoy you. Apparently both of those locusts that are invincible have self destruct spells, so going by that logic, i'm assuming it's virus doctor counter part does the same thing. Either way i don't really see them as a threat, so i don't think its needed.

he isn't too hard, but he once made my health go low. I think they should nerf its teleportation spell, it casts it TOO much

yes pls

yes pls

yes pls

yes pls

i thought they did

 

I haven't seen any tnts explode randomly, so I'm gonna assume they didnt

 

y ES EXacTLY!11

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i dont think making the minions stronger is gonna make the boss fight any better. just slightly more annoying but the boss itself is still broken/too easy

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they have never flooded in my expirence, and they didn't deal enough damage to be any threat to begin with.

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it does teleport a lot, and the elf projectiles hit way too hard compared to the other forms/bosses in the tier.

 

Tbh not even his health is that good
I at least required skill pots to get through everything else in the gold tier, but I literally soloed him without pots or taking any damage AT ALL, which is frankly stupid

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Nah, both of those are honestly tolerable IMO
The flamethrower though....

 

The flamethrower gets you really low because It follows you and then those two deal fucking stupid damage

 

They do. If you are fighting the Virus Doctor for a few minutes you are standing in an army of bugs that you can only escape by running away because they are so slow but if you do so you can barely fight the boss leading to even more bugs. That happened to me when I tried it with my spell damage mage.

With an elemental tank warrior the whole damage stuff is irrelevant tho. You don't really take damage anyway.

 

It's not about taking damage but dealing damage to the boss, which you can't because the bugs have pretty much unlimited health and a multi-hit which knocks you back

 

The taking damage part was not about the virus doctor specifically. More about LI in general. That's why I use an elemental tank warrior to do LI.
But you are right the more bugs the harder it is and more annoying it gets, that's exactly what they are meant to do. You have to kill him fast otherwise the bugs do what they are supposed to do and annoy the player.

 

Elemental tank will do the job.
But the annoyance makes the boss practically unkillable for some builds but then against you could just switch worlds or /class.

 

That's the point of LI, isn't it? It's meant to be a challenge and not everything works out against all bosses. I failed as well with my spell damage mage which I think is a pretty good build. It is useful for pretty much ever situation. Lots of mana (regen) which I didn't even intend to have in my build, good damage, good mobility,... but it failed miserably against the virus doctor. I also don't think LI was originally meant to be done alone.

 

I can see what you mean, and partly I agree with you but I still think crowd control should be an option against the virus doctor.

 

U know what would be cool? If the tnt did damage

 

No issues.

The bugs are invincible, and just like in the original fight, add a soft timer to the fight; it will eventually become impossible to survive and effectively damage the boss if there are too many bugs on the field, as some of them will use Multihits, some of them will use Heal, and they all have a strong Self-Destruct on them to swap between forms. The only one that's killable is the Healing bug, so you can stop that aspect temporarily. Saying "The invincible gimmick mobs have too much health" is a silly complaint.

The second form "dealing too much damage" is incorrect, as it has the exact same 4000-4800 damage as the first form. Its Meteor spell inflicts 150% damage, so 6000-7200. This is the first time I've seen anyone complain about a form other than the Arrow Storm robot, but that one being so overpowered is due to a bug where Arrow Storm ignores spell damage modifiers and deals 100% damage per arrow. On that form, I halved its damage and doubled its attack rate in order to try and combat this somewhat, though.

There are a lot of incorrect statements here.

Only the first form uses Flamethrower. The spell deals 50% or 65% damage per hit, so either 2500-3000 damage per hit or 3250-3900 damage per hit.
The third and ninth forms use Multihits, but the ninth form has a fairly weak one as it's a "panic mode" for the boss. Since the boss has its base damage reduced and its attack rate increased, its spells become weaker to reflect this.
Third Form's Multihits deals either 12%, 15%, or 18% damage 11 times, so either 6600-7920, 8250-9900, or 9900-11880 total damage. Yes, that's a very high amount! But, you fail to take into account the fact that Multihits is a very short-ranged attack, its Pull gives you time to move, and the form moves fairly slowly, meaning if you get hit by that spell, that's your own fault.
Ninth Form's Multihits deals 0/1/2/4/8/16/32% damage, and its base damage is halved due to its attack rate of 2, so it can deal 0-0, 250-300, 500-600, 1000-1200, 2000-3000, 4000-4800, or 8000-9600 damage. Seeing as it has this massive range and players are still easily capable of dodging this form's attacks due to how far it can be knocked back and an escapable pull reaction, I still see no problem with this.
The fourth and fifth forms use primarily Charge, though the ninth and tenth forms can use it as well. Only the ninth form combines it with Multihits, mentioned above, and not with timing such that you can't avoid it.
Its regen is constant throughout forms; if it's a problem in the early forms it should be a problem in the later forms, shouldn't it?

This boss is indeed a bit of a beef gate for the island, as anyone with an okay amount of skill and some potions can get through the Bronze Tier with some effort, but this boss forces you to be on top of your game with its grueling length. The smaller arena is because it's emulating the original fight. If you go fight the original Matryoshka Idol, you'll find that the Legendary Island arena is the same size.

He inflicts 5000-6000 damage per hit. That's low? Warrior's neutral immunity is irrelevant here as that is a glitch that will be fixed. Jumping on a horse to avoid attacks has never worked for me; I still take damage when the enemies rush by. This fight is meant to be a slight breather between the Matrojan Idol and Death Metal.

"Minions don't make a boss hard." Tell that to literally any boss who relies on its minions in any game ever. In fact, tell that to the Plague Doctor, Qira, or Orange Wybel, whose main gimmicks -are- their minions. Same with Death Metal. I honestly don't like Death's fight as a whole anyways, so I think both fights could do with a redo, but Death has lots of health and his elemental weaknesses are very low at the same time. I think it's mostly just glassy builds thrashing him and calling it a day.

So 7000-14000 DPS in the first form and 8000-20000 dps in the second form, both at inescapably fast movement speed, is weak, noted for future reference. Seriously; his damage per second is utterly demoralizing, and it traps you in place for his Multihits which only compounds onto that, inflicting 80%/100% in the first form and 90%-100% in the second, so 3080-6160/3850-7700, or 3960-9900/4400-11000 damage. His element weaknesses are even less pronounced than Death's, and IMPROVE in his second form. This is just another "oh warrior is glitched and immune to neutral, hurr hurr game 2 ez" situation.

The Mechorrupter inflicts mass DPS over a ton of rapid hits, but this guy does burst damage. 1600-7200, with a 150/200% Charge(2400-10800/3200-14400)isn't exactly anything to sneeze about. This increases in his second form to 2000-8000 damage, with a majority of that being neutral and elements getting only a minor feature(that extra 400-800) to take advantage of any weaknesses you might have. He loses the 150-200% damage spells, since he now uses multi hitting spells like Multihits and Flamethrower which everyone seems to have a problem with. They deal 15/20/25% damage, so on that Multihits, that's 3300-13200/4400-17600/5500-22000 damage!!! How is that worse damage, especially seeing as he still moves faster than the player, can slow you down, and doesn't take knockback unlike the Mechorrupter?

In regards to his swords, only the Fire and Earth swords move slower than the player, and even then, the Earth Sword keeps pace in addition to each having their own repertoire of amped up spells. I really don't see how this is easy in any regard, except the obvious "hurr warrior immunity gmae 2 ezzzzzzz lul" mindset.

Lack of space? You ever fought the actual Wybel? That arena is actually just a little bit bigger than the one from the actual fight. Just like the Matrojan Idol and Death Metal, the arena is emulated to keep true to the fight. But I agree that the Cybel is overpowered; the Orange Wybel as it is was meant to be as tough as it got. And then it got mechanized and buffed further. Just to give you an idea of how tough it is, the Disintegrators were completely untouched and the Cybel itself only got nominal stat increases. The main point of power-increase here was with the Cybel minions. That's really it.

Alright, let's get something out of the way really quickly here. In all of his forms, he ahs a higher attack rate which means his damage is reduced to compensate. If he did NOT hve these changes, he would inflict an average of 9000 damage per hit. Would you REALLY rather have that?

First Form has the dreaded Flamethrower that everyone can't stand, and it deals 50% damage(1000-2000), and it's up nearly constantly in addition to his usual projectiles, of which he shoots three per second. The Teleports and Charges keep him constantly moved around the arena, and come out super quickly. Since he's ranged it helps him keep you at the distance where he can hit you most effectively, s well as closing the gap to those running away.

Second Form goes melee, with an attack rate of 2. In addition to once again moving faster than the player and taking hardly any knockback, his Multihits inflicts 25% damage(11000-13750), which is pretty well a oneshot to a lot of players. The Cybel's attacks deal less than this on average, so...

Third Form returns to ranged attacks, keeping the attack rate of 2. He swaps out his multihit attacks for burst damage, where his Meteor and Charge can inflict 125%/150%/175%/200% damage(3750-7500/4500-9000/5250-10500/6000-12000). He also often will use Push to shove you away into more optimal shooting range, and into the Detonators, which inflict 1000-9999 damage with their Self-Destruct. Unlike how you say, the bombs detonate on their own; they have a 7 second timer. Since there's so many of them around the arena constantly, it's quite likely he'll shove you into them multiple times with Push.

So no, it's not impossible for him to kill you; in fact he has one of the highest DPS counts of the whole place. I think the only reason he's considered easy is because he comes after the Cybel.

1) Pointless, they're meant to be invincible.
2) Then it would be too weak.
3) Its damage is right on target, and we tried it with a larger arena; the thing's a pushover.
4) Its health is right where it should be.
5) Their damage is high enough. I see little reason to constrict arena space for them, all things considered only Bob's is significantly smaller than the one provided in Legendary Island by default.
6) Ruins the gimmick of "avoid the plates or get bogged down by minions". Same as the normal fight; no one asks for more space there.
7) They already do.
8) They aren't broken.