Media A Note From Igbar - Our Late Moderator

Salted · Apr 6, 2016

Supermariowifi said: ↑

Oh wow. I didn't think about that point.
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And even if we made the quest give all these items, if the quest is technically for around lvl 80, we'd give lvl 80 items. You'd level up to 50 so the rewards would be useless to you. Adding level limitation allow us to know exactly what level the player will be when he does this quest, and plan out the rewards.

Tantibus · Apr 6, 2016

Bippy Dippy said: ↑

I think the T4 chest in Molten heights is a pretty good example of these "secret areas"
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There's two of them, so I'm not sure which one you're referring to. But I imagine you're referring to the one hidden inside Rodoroc.

RainbowSlug · Apr 6, 2016

Tantibus said: ↑

First of all, we are aware the game had a massive grinding problem. We're not ignorant. What does he think an update that spent a year and a half in development was for? You know, the one where the quests start at the EXACT. SAME. POINT. the game required more than three minutes of grinding to level up? Grinding is a problem, and we're trying to fix that. Of course there's grinding at the high levels at this moment but what does he think we're working on right now?

Level requirements on quests are important. Unlike what Igbar says, it's incredibly likely that someone will get to the sky islands, cheat a quest, and level up to 50 instantly. And no, they should NOT be rewarded for that. It totally breaks the progression system. Yes, there's dangers but rewarding the player for totally trying to cheat the game? No! People have found ways to solo bosses with a depressing spear so I imagine they'd actually find some cheaty way to easily do all the high level quests. Yes, the level requirements break immersion pretty easily but it's better than a big red "You have to be level 42 to start this quest!" Both break immersion, but when the NPC says it, subconsciously, it "feels" less so. The level requirements make you feel like every level up is rewarding. It tells you all the new quests you can do and you're like "sweet, this quest looks cool!"

We're aware there's a boss problem, but I don't think it's as big of a problem as Igbar makes it out to be. I think the problem is that we don't have enough purely powerful attack spells. Which leads to most bosses just being buff enemies with multihit. Which is something we're working hard to fix. Eventually I hope that all bosses in the game will be unique. And then lastly, Igbar goes as far as flat-out insulting the idea of an MMORPG in Minecraft. I don't see the problem with using Minecraft as an engine to create an MMORPG. I mean, making a real MMORPG is expensive, and costs millions of dollars. I've had a blast with wynncraft, and the fact that we have so many people playing proves that I'm not alone here.

This entire video sounds like it's coming from someone who didn't actually play the Gavel Update, but someone who just heard about it from friends. This video divulged too far from "criticisms" and just turned into him describing some ideal vision for what Wynncraft should be. Aside from the grinding, I haven't seen anyone complain about anything else he touched on. So I don't think any of that is actually a real "problem" with the server.
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Tantibus... I feel that your opinion is very biased. Igbar had a lot of good points. Also when you said that a low level player could cheat a quest, that's very unlikely. Furthermore that's on the content team for not seeing that. In theory they should be able to use that as the team was to ignorant to see it if a lvl 1 player would be able to find.

Rawb · Apr 6, 2016

RainbowSlug said: ↑

Tantibus... I feel that your opinion is very biased. Igbar had a lot of good points. Also when you said that a low level player could cheat a quest, that's very unlikely. Furthermore that's on the content team for not seeing that. In theory they should be able to use that as the team was to ignorant to see it if a lvl 1 player would be able to find.
Click to expand...

It is quite possible for a low level player to cheat a quest. That's the thing about the human brain. It is able to find little cheats and glitches that it can exploit to help it achieve the goal. Look at ToA for example. People have figured out that if you have all the shards on a high level quest, you can give the shards to your lower level class to allow them to complete ToA at like level 45. That is extremely game-breaking if the player will just level up insanely, and yes, the 3 level cap is pretty bs at times since it can feel like its just pissing on the fact that you were able to figure out a way around the level requirement for the bosses, however this has prevented people from completely breaking the game.

Mular5 · Apr 6, 2016

Salted said: ↑

I disagree on some points, of course. There's a good saying in game design which goes like this: "If a player can find a more efficient way to do something, he will do it, even if it's less fun". A player rushing to the Molten Height and finishing a quest of that level would not make the game more fun. If we were to do that, we'd actually had to add MORE grinding and more bosses. Why? Because we wouldn't be able to make fun quests like Beyond the Grave without making it so every level 1 will rush to complete it for insta level 50, as it does not require you to kill anything.

It feels like you are way, way too focused on one aspect of the game, which are quests. The game is very open-ended. Other games can manage to have no grinding but often come at a cost of being linear, or hiding their "level requirements". Look at Zelda, sure there's no grinding BUT you do need to do every dungeon one at a time, kill enemies that gets in your way while you're traveling, etc. The game is also a MMORPG, not a RPG. A big part of a MMO is that it lasts for a long time, it's not a game you play once for 12h, finish everything and never touch it again. It's a game requiring team work, trading and taking things slowly. Allowing people to just skip through everything would kill the game very quickly. I mean, why not allow Link to kill Ganon right as he starts right? He would die but people who really like the challenge would have a lot of fun dying over and over again to finish the game.

I hear a lot of people saying "I stopped playing because of grinding", but allowing you to skip half the quests (because btw, skipping quests to reach level 50 in one go would make all the lvl <50 quests stupidly easy and less fun) would make you guys quit even faster, as there would be no content. Grinding is an issue, and the more we update the game, the less there is of that. But it is not as bad as you make it seem.

You compared Wynncraft to Mario, which is... very weird. Mario is a linear platform game. One level of Mario does not equal 1 quest of Wynncraft. If anything, by playtime alone, Mario has more bosses per minutes than Wynncraft.

Something else. The game is very focused on items as well. Skipping 50 levels sounds fun right? Until you realise you are still using a level 5 weapon and can't kill anything, and are forced to go back to Ragni to grind, even more slowly than before. Quests can give items, but with the huge amount of build there is, we'd have to make every quest give 20 items to make it fair for every classes and every elements.

In my opinion, grinding is much, much less of a pain than it was before Gavel. You guys don't know, but we actually reduced the mob-kill required per level in this update. People are able to reach level 60 very easily with almost only quests, and a little bit of.. "grinding". Killing mobs isn't grinding, and it is a gameplay feature that can be fun and rewarding. What is boring is having to do this for hours and hours, which only happens in the late levels.

My idea for the game was always to make it so you have 1 quest per level, giving you a significiant amount of XP, then the little amount left needs to be reach by doing dungeons or killing mobs, in order to find new items and become more powerful. And that grinding doesn't have to be all in one go, it can be done simply by walking from one point to another and killing mobs in your way. Quests are a reward (what even is the problem with that?) the same as killing mob and getting an item is a reward, or getting 2 skill points, or being able to finally wear this great item you found a while back.

Lastly, the fact that you are talking like Wynncraft is spitting on your time makes me fairly upset. We don't add a specific progression because "lol fuck your time", but because it is, without a doubt, what is more fun. The way you talk about the game like it is the worst thing that ever existed feels like a slap on the face. All the work we've done to make fun and diverse builds, to fill up caves with loots and beautiful building is completely overshadowed because the game doesn't go at the pace you'd like. Have you guys ever thought that maybe the game is less fun now because you've played too much of it? Maybe you've outgrown the genre. We can't expect to keep the same playerbase with one game for years, and sometimes it might be better for some of you to just let it go.

Yea, fuck grinding for sure, but we do not have the resources to create content as fast as you guys consume them. We're getting there, and already the next update will reduce grinding even more.

EDIT: Oh yea, there is a bit too much bosses in the Gavel quest, that I can agree.
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Damn, Salted beat me to the response on this.
Thankfully, i agree with him.
Although, i will say this.
Wynncraft is not perfect.
Neither is real life.
We do our best to create a good experience for you guys.
But nothing is quick and easy to add in this day and age.
I know it seems like forever, college does at times for me.
But we will make progress.
Please...give us time.
We already have a LOT of issues with wynn we need to fix, such as more quests, other additions, dealing with hackers. (You know who you are)
I know that some of you can get bored with wynn when you play through everything.
In that case, i recommend trying something new with the server.
I do my data files, its what keeps me excited and allows me to enjoy the server.
Heck, make some builds on a personal server and post them. Put up a million signs saying "Salted is a B@!#$."
Do whatever you think is a good use of your time.
But dont just give up on something because it takes time to improve it.
You will find some of the best things in life require a LONG wait.
I know i did.
From Mular5

RainbowSlug · Apr 6, 2016

Rawb said: ↑

It is quite possible for a low level player to cheat a quest. That's the thing about the human brain. It is able to find little cheats and glitches that it can exploit to help it achieve the goal. Look at ToA for example. People have figured out that if you have all the shards on a high level quest, you can give the shards to your lower level class to allow them to complete ToA at like level 45. That is extremely game-breaking if the player will just level up insanely, and yes, the 3 level cap is pretty bs at times since it can feel like its just pissing on the fact that you were able to figure out a way around the level requirement for the bosses, however this has prevented people from completely breaking the game.
Click to expand...

Yes... I don't think you fully read my post. I said if a lvl 1 can cheat a quest it should be on the staff no hate. The staff should be able to find ways to prevent it. After all their the smart ones so if players can find ways to exploit the staff can find ways to fix ways to exploit

Mular5 · Apr 6, 2016

Tantibus said: ↑

First of all, we are aware the game had a massive grinding problem. We're not ignorant. What does he think an update that spent a year and a half in development was for? You know, the one where the quests start at the EXACT. SAME. POINT. the game required more than three minutes of grinding to level up? Grinding is a problem, and we're trying to fix that. Of course there's grinding at the high levels at this moment but what does he think we're working on right now?

Level requirements on quests are important. Unlike what Igbar says, it's incredibly likely that someone will get to the sky islands, cheat a quest, and level up to 50 instantly. And no, they should NOT be rewarded for that. It totally breaks the progression system. Yes, there's dangers but rewarding the player for totally trying to cheat the game? No! People have found ways to solo bosses with a depressing spear so I imagine they'd actually find some cheaty way to easily do all the high level quests. Yes, the level requirements break immersion pretty easily but it's better than a big red "You have to be level 42 to start this quest!" Both break immersion, but when the NPC says it, subconsciously, it "feels" less so. The level requirements make you feel like every level up is rewarding. It tells you all the new quests you can do and you're like "sweet, this quest looks cool!"

We're aware there's a boss problem, but I don't think it's as big of a problem as Igbar makes it out to be. I think the problem is that we don't have enough purely powerful attack spells. Which leads to most bosses just being buff enemies with multihit. Which is something we're working hard to fix. Eventually I hope that all bosses in the game will be unique. And then lastly, Igbar goes as far as flat-out insulting the idea of an MMORPG in Minecraft. I don't see the problem with using Minecraft as an engine to create an MMORPG. I mean, making a real MMORPG is expensive, and costs millions of dollars. I've had a blast with wynncraft, and the fact that we have so many people playing proves that I'm not alone here.

This entire video sounds like it's coming from someone who didn't actually play the Gavel Update, but someone who just heard about it from friends. This video divulged too far from "criticisms" and just turned into him describing some ideal vision for what Wynncraft should be. Aside from the grinding, I haven't seen anyone complain about anything else he touched on. So I don't think any of that is actually a real "problem" with the server.
Click to expand...

Tanti.....im not gonna lie here.
I feel like this could have been said better.
I know igbar was not the most proper either with his statements at times, but that is youtube.
This is the wynncraft forums, and i really expect us to try and sound polite.
Okay?
From Mular5

Flubby · Apr 6, 2016

Just gonna say this now.

I'm proud of the regular members for not slinging ad hominems and having logical debates.

Less so for our role models.

Rawb · Apr 6, 2016

RainbowSlug said: ↑

Yes... I don't think you fully read my post. I said if a lvl 1 can cheat a quest it should be on the staff no hate. The staff should be able to find ways to prevent it. After all their the smart ones so if players can find ways to exploit the staff can find ways to fix ways to exploit
Click to expand...

Ah, I'd like to clarify that i read your post, but I think I might have not fully gotten that part of the point. You have a great point, as after all, it is the staff/content team's job to make the player's experience better by limiting the amount of game-breaking glitches, exploits, bugs, etc. However, I believe if the staff does find a way around the exploits and stuff, the same thing will happen to what Igbar said. It will feel like you aren't being rewarded. You figured out a way to get around it, and you can't even use it.

BlahBlah161616 · Apr 6, 2016

Salted said: ↑

I disagree on some points, of course. There's a good saying in game design which goes like this: "If a player can find a more efficient way to do something, he will do it, even if it's less fun". A player rushing to the Molten Height and finishing a quest of that level would not make the game more fun. If we were to do that, we'd actually had to add MORE grinding and more bosses. Why? Because we wouldn't be able to make fun quests like Beyond the Grave without making it so every level 1 will rush to complete it for insta level 50, as it does not require you to kill anything.

It feels like you are way, way too focused on one aspect of the game, which are quests. The game is very open-ended. Other games can manage to have no grinding but often come at a cost of being linear, or hiding their "level requirements". Look at Zelda, sure there's no grinding BUT you do need to do every dungeon one at a time, kill enemies that gets in your way while you're traveling, etc. The game is also a MMORPG, not a RPG. A big part of a MMO is that it lasts for a long time, it's not a game you play once for 12h, finish everything and never touch it again. It's a game requiring team work, trading and taking things slowly. Allowing people to just skip through everything would kill the game very quickly. I mean, why not allow Link to kill Ganon right as he starts right? He would die but people who really like the challenge would have a lot of fun dying over and over again to finish the game.

I hear a lot of people saying "I stopped playing because of grinding", but allowing you to skip half the quests (because btw, skipping quests to reach level 50 in one go would make all the lvl <50 quests stupidly easy and less fun) would make you guys quit even faster, as there would be no content. Grinding is an issue, and the more we update the game, the less there is of that. But it is not as bad as you make it seem.

You compared Wynncraft to Mario, which is... very weird. Mario is a linear platform game. One level of Mario does not equal 1 quest of Wynncraft. If anything, by playtime alone, Mario has more bosses per minutes than Wynncraft.

Something else. The game is very focused on items as well. Skipping 50 levels sounds fun right? Until you realise you are still using a level 5 weapon and can't kill anything, and are forced to go back to Ragni to grind, even more slowly than before. Quests can give items, but with the huge amount of build there is, we'd have to make every quest give 20 items to make it fair for every classes and every elements.

In my opinion, grinding is much, much less of a pain than it was before Gavel. You guys don't know, but we actually reduced the mob-kill required per level in this update. People are able to reach level 60 very easily with almost only quests, and a little bit of.. "grinding". Killing mobs isn't grinding, and it is a gameplay feature that can be fun and rewarding. What is boring is having to do this for hours and hours, which only happens in the late levels.

My idea for the game was always to make it so you have 1 quest per level, giving you a significiant amount of XP, then the little amount left needs to be reach by doing dungeons or killing mobs, in order to find new items and become more powerful. And that grinding doesn't have to be all in one go, it can be done simply by walking from one point to another and killing mobs in your way. Quests are a reward (what even is the problem with that?) the same as killing mob and getting an item is a reward, or getting 2 skill points, or being able to finally wear this great item you found a while back.

Lastly, the fact that you are talking like Wynncraft is spitting on your time makes me fairly upset. We don't add a specific progression because "lol fuck your time", but because it is, without a doubt, what is more fun. The way you talk about the game like it is the worst thing that ever existed feels like a slap on the face. All the work we've done to make fun and diverse builds, to fill up caves with loots and beautiful building is completely overshadowed because the game doesn't go at the pace you'd like. Have you guys ever thought that maybe the game is less fun now because you've played too much of it? Maybe you've outgrown the genre. We can't expect to keep the same playerbase with one game for years, and sometimes it might be better for some of you to just let it go.

Yea, fuck grinding for sure, but we do not have the resources to create content as fast as you guys consume them. We're getting there, and already the next update will reduce grinding even more.

EDIT: Oh yea, there is a bit too much bosses in the Gavel quest, that I can agree.
Click to expand...

I sorta stopped playing cuz my resource pack doesn't work.

BigMacYoshi · Apr 6, 2016

I wish there were more quest variety between the classes. It's not very fun (for me) to do the exact same quest in my archer that i just did. I do think grinding is an issue, and always has been. I'm just glad there hasn't been any huge flame wars...

Rawb · Apr 6, 2016

BigMacYoshi said: ↑

I wish there were more quest variety between the classes. It's not very fun (for me) to do the exact same quest in my archer that i just did. I do think grinding is an issue, and always has been. I'm just glad there hasn't been any huge flame wars...
Click to expand...

That's the problem though. If there was quest variety, it would

1. Take a lot of work to do
2. Mean that not every quest is accessible to everyone
3. Forces you to play a certain class to play a certain quest

Of course, this is just what I thought you said. If it isn't, can you please elaborate what you mean.

Turtlebomb · Apr 6, 2016

I think qynn qoul be coller with more things like the clock mystery and the ??? quest. You're finding a genuine mystery and getting rewatded for it, the only problem is people saying how to do them (clock quest specifically, not ???). Another cool thing would be weekend traders that can sell you exclusive items. They can be in a random city in each province every weekend.

IgbarVonSquid™ · Apr 6, 2016

Yo I know I said I wouldn't reply anymore but that was in terms arguments. I've talked with about the situation with others and I've decided to take the video down. It doesn't truly reflect how I feel and it was dumb of me to think it was good idea in the first place. All I've done is hurt people who trusted me and I regret it but I'm going to try and make it right. Expect a sequel video within the next few days, and less criticism from me in the future.

SilverMirror · Apr 6, 2016

IgbarVonSquid™ said: ↑

Yo I know I said I wouldn't reply anymore but that was in terms arguments. I've talked with about the situation with others and I've decided to take the video down. It doesn't truly reflect how I feel and it was dumb of me to think it was good idea in the first place. All I've done is hurt people who trusted me and I regret it but I'm going to try and make it right. Expect a sequel video within the next few days, and less criticism from me in the future.
Click to expand...

I respect your decision, sorry if my thread hv negative effects on you and your channel, i was just hoping to share it, hoping to start a positive discussion and hv no means of doing harm. do you mind if I quote it on the thread so people knows why the video is being brought down?

IgbarVonSquid™ · Apr 6, 2016

SilverMirror said: ↑

I respect your decision, sorry if my thread hv negative effects on you and your channel, i was just hoping to share it, hoping to start a positive discussion and hv no means of doing harm. do you mind if I quote it on the thread so people knows why the video is being brought down?
Click to expand...

You did nothing wrong, it was my faulty reasoning for why I want to take it down. You may quote what I said as you wish.

SilverMirror · Apr 6, 2016

IgbarVonSquid™ said: ↑

You did nothing wrong, it was my faulty reasoning for why I want to take it down. You may quote what I said as you wish.
Click to expand...

Moreover if you do not wish I post your sequel video on here then I'll leave it as it is

Pretzule · Apr 6, 2016

Closing due to opinions being expressed and really no reason for people to say the same thing over and over. Video was also taken down so the main discussion topic is gone. Also requested by video poster. It will be reopened if requested by OP or video poster.

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Media A Note From Igbar - Our Late Moderator

Salted Game Design & Wynncraft Founder Staff Member Admin GM CHAMPION

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