Game Mechanics Bloodbath needs a change.

Bloodbath

Bloodbath is the new warrior mythic added in the newest major update Wynncraft: Rekindled World.

It's one of Annihilation drops and also one of the most controversial weapons. Now don’t get me wrong, Bloodbath is indeed kinda fun to play (minus some VERY annoying things), but it is considerably worse than other mythics.

I and a lot of people hate to see such a beautiful and fun weapon concept being ruined by a poor execution, hence why we want to share our feedback.

I’ll be basing this information off of the general Bloodbath experience me and a couple of people had.

After highlighting every bad aspect about bloodbath we will suggest possible and balanced reworks (of course your feedback will be very well welcomed if articulated properly).

There is no reason to play Bloodbath.

"Why should you play bloodbath"

a) Gimmick: First off, the main gimmick of Bloodbath is the constant use of bloodpact as you are forced to 0 mana. While using the weapon, your HP drains quickly while giving you a damage boost, in other words, bloodbath is supposed to be a burst dps weapon (a bit like shadestepper, very well known to be a cool concept that doesn’t work, but that will be another document). Now, a weapon specifically made for fallen that drains your hp while fighting is a really good concept, the problem is for how it is executed currently, there is no reason to choose bloodbath; I can just choose any other mythic, make a manaless bloodpact build and probably get even better results. In conclusion, you don’t need bloodbath to use the bloodpact gimmick.

b) Damage: You would then think that Bloodbath is the spear with the highest damage right? That would make sense, as it forces you to play in a risky way, it should reward you with great dps right? Well you’d be wrong. Bloodbath is nowhere near the weapon with the highest dps. Manaless Thrundacrack for example has considerably higher DPS than bloodbath, manaless Hero too (having Saviour Sacrifice and 140 agi, which makes it very tanky too) has similar damage if not higher damage than bloodbath at like a one millionth of the risk, while manaless Idol on the other hand has similar/slightly lower damage than Bloodbath, but it offers great mobility, hence survivability, which too negates any reason to play Bloodbath. Not only that, but even if you manage to make a super risky bloodbath build, ETW let’s say (which has no way to heal back to full hp needing an outrageous amount of potions) that deals more damage than some of the weapons mentioned above (the damage won’t go above Thrundacrack anyways), you will still get lower damage as, unlike Thrunda, Hero, Idol etc...., you cannot deal damage consistently with Bloodbath as you need to run back and heal up. In conclusion, damage isn’t a reason to play bloodbath (and no, buffing bloodbath damage won’t solve all the other issues.).
Note: I know I was talking about manaless builds dealing more damage to make a similar comparison but sadly even normal builds can deal more damage than bloodbath hence strengthening this point further and bringing us to point c

c) Quality of life: Like… no. This doesn’t even require a section. Bloodbath is very well known for having no quality of life. It’s dependent on other items like RoTS, Catamaran or Infernal Impulse, which also makes building this weapon very impractical. Not only that, but after retreating and healing back up, you also need to wait for corruption cooldown to go expire, if you play fallen (which you want to, considering you wanna at least squeeze as much damage as possible to make this weapon worth using, which we already discussed isn’t really a valid reason as you have thrunda dealing potentially double the damage). You could also try to go for the life steal option (as it’s one of bloodbath ids) and… I want to see you try that out at 100 hp 3 blocks away from greg (not only that, but a build that has enough life steal to heal you back up in a couple of hits, realistically doesn’t have great damage which again brings us back to point b and a)

d) Building it is practical: Nope. Not even that, quite the opposite, building bloodbath is pretty painful to say the least (as a side note, the only build that works for bloodbath that is maybe comparable to Hero Idol and Thrunda in terms of viability and damage is ONLY one, which is already not a good sign). The requirements the weapon has make its possible combinations a pain. Let's discuss those shall we.
ETW: If you take this route, you WON’T be able to heal back up in boss fights where minions are not present. Your only option is to have a healer in your team and a load of potions because Catamaran and RoTS are locked behind agility and defense and being healer dependent, isn’t great (unless it’s for wars ofc but let’s exclude those). Good luck with quality of life too. Also as we’ve discussed earlier, it’s not even worth it (refernce point b.) ET(w)A/F: this is one of the best combinations for bloodbath, although the damage will leave you so disappointed that at this point you are probably using bloodbath just because you enjoy it (and I respect that, hence why we need to fix this amazing weapon concept) Rainbow: This is kinda the same as the previous one (if you have 60 defense at least). ETW(a)/(f): Yeah no. If you play this one, you probably hate yourself. What’s the big difference you might say? It’s kinda in between ETW and ET(w)A/F but your only healing option (if you have access to it) is Catamaran and its healing ability is incredibly worse than RoTS, hence why the quality of life in this combination is horrible.
Now since the spammability with bloodbath is non existent (as it was meant to be played heavyspell and it’s not even worth it because you will be spending half of the fight healing back losing on a TONS of dps and that option kinda sucks for multiple reasons, you’ll see later why), you might think that using generalist is a good idea and in fact it is from my experience… minus a couple of things:

You cannot use sorcery (for obvious reasons)
The build is limited to bash charge - something (which is honestly a minor downside)
The generalist Flush takes away at least 20% off your hp at the start of the fight
Because you are limited to Bash cycles, realistically you are gonna have to also choose thunderclap limiting your ability tree options too (unless you are on the ground using heavyspell which is kinda bad in any scenario as I forgot to mention that you not only need a tankier build but WILL not be fast enough to make it work, bash doesn’t really work without thunderclap but that’s more an ability problem).
You of course need to spend building slots to spell cost items to make the build at least a bit spammable which WILL take away damage and quality of life options.

In short, there isn’t really a build that is able to compete with the other available options and not only that, your options are VERY limited.

So we already stated that Bloodbath is neither unique nor there is any reason to choose it over any other weapon. Now we’ll briefly discuss another really controversial aspect, which is that Bloodbath is the only Annihilation mythic drop that does not have a Major ID. The argument the few people defending it have is really weak: “it does not need a major id, it having no mana drastically changes the playstyle already”. Now let's take idol for example, a weapon that feels unique without a major id reliant on its charge cost making the player fly; to replicate its playstyle you need lots of charge cost items in your build, making a possible “idol imitation build” very impractical (the results won’t even be close to what idol alone can accomplish). Unlike the previous example, if you want to replicate Bloodbath playstyle you just need to use items that don’t give mana. That's it. Replicating “Bloodbath’s unique gimmick” takes nothing (you literally only need bloodpact, a common spear and a spell spam unsustainable build). Some even say that it's great at heavyspell, which is in fact not true; the risky playstyle it offers isn't really compatible with heavyspell, but let's say your build is tanky enough to support it: realistically it then won't have a damage output comparable to the other much safer options. Not only that but many heavyspell items give negative mana regen too (in order to balance out spammability with damage) which enable ANY weapon to play like Bloodbath and EVEN if they don’t, the default mana regen speed (25mr/s) is still not even sustainable for heavyspell ANYWAYS, which lets you spam Blood Pact like Bloodbath does.

Now adding a bloodbath major id would actually be one of the best way to fix the concept as
Buffing its base damage only doesn't really fix anything.

You'd have to change the concept to something that is more viable to more playstyles and the first step to do so would be to remove that negative mana regen id (as we already discussed it doesn't make the weapon unique and only limits the trees you can use) but I really enjoy the drain hp playstyle, hence here is my suggestion for a rework and I will (of course) also explain why it is a more viable option than the current version



We had more suggestions but we think that this is one of the best routes Bloodbath can take
Here I will discuss the most important changes and then why we implemented them:

• We removed the negative mana regen ID as (explained before, it doesn't really make the weapon unique in any way shape or form)
• We buffed the damage but lowered the skill points it gives you and the requirements (the sum is still similar to other annie mythics, meaning that the sum of the requirements is still in the 140 to 160 range) to make the weapon more viable with more playstyles and builds.
• We added a major id that preserve the supposed Bloodbath identity (a weapon that rewards you with damage with a risky playstyle)

The "Agony" major ID specifics:

• Drain HP: 0.83% hp per second (that means that at the end of corruption you will then have 25% hp left.)
• Buffed Corruption Damage: from 160% max to 220% max (which means that at 50% you are gonna have a 110% damage boost instead of the old 80%)
• Buffed Exhilarate from restoring 30% hp to 40% hp.

Now why these changes? First off the reason we removed the negative mana regen id is pretty obvious at this point. The whole reason for these suggestions is to make bloodbath a viable weapon; removing that id (and lowering the requirements) doesn't force players to choose bloodpact specifically and lowering the requirements but keeping them in the same range as other annie mythics opens doors for more build choice; so if you want to play other playstyles now you can! Of course you are gonna get the most benefits from choosing fallen (as bloodbath is supposed to be a fallen weapon). We also kept old ids so that the players who currently like bloodbath can still use their builds. hence moving on in the next section.

Now bloodbath is pretty glass; you can't really put many skill points in defense or agi, and even if you do you are still gonna have low base hp cause of the -hp id, hence a weapon like thrunda if you are going for DPS is gonna be more useful with paladin or battlemonk, but now thanks to the agony major id bloodbath shines bright with fallen. The hp drain is gonna buff you consistently throughout the fight, it works only when corruption is active, so it's not gonna be annoying when you are not fighting or you are just moving around (unlike before), but we put this mechanic mainly to preserve and improve bloodbath drain hp concept (that I really like), the goods of the id are in the second part. Now actually playing risky is gonna reward you with good damage (and even tho a 60% increase might look like a lot, mathematically you get just a bit more damage than thrundacrack at 50% hp or less, so you now have a 3 reasons accordingly to point a, b and c to choose bloodbath.), Not only that but you can now play consistently unlike before where it worked just like a worse version of shadestepper without being forced into generalist or specific gimmicks, although nothing stops you from going back to the old bloodbath playstyle. We then buffed exhilarate accordingly to point c and d (a 10% increase is actually pretty good) it makes pots sustain a bit more practical and it makes catamaran healing actually a bit more useful, hence it opens more options to builds and playstyles. Summary.

These changes favor every single point in the section "Why should you choose this weapon"

a) Now the gimmick is unique. You cannot replicate it in any way with other items.

b) Now you have a reason to play bloodbath damage wise as it rewards your risky playstyle unlike before (where thrunda and other weapons were always better in any every way)

c and d) Now with the lowering of requirements, and the buff to exhilarate and the more reasonable drain hp rate, the quality of life is MUCH MUCH better than before, where the only usuable and practical builds were just a few (and weren't even nearly as good as the other options) and now you are open to more options.

Hansel out.

 

Fire post ngl

 

Add a poll please and post in discord too.

 

I would, but when writing long paragraphs like this, those who view things differently from you, would just choose "no" without even reading.

 

There is one point I agree with here, and that's that Bloodbath is too reliant on Rally (or external healing). However, this is an issue that persists through Fallen and Warrior as a whole, even when it is more noticeable on Bloodbath (IMO the weapon is unplayable without RotS).

RotS aside, Bloodbath is in fact a very viable weapon. It's a risky playstyle with incredible reward, that allows you to get top damage reliably in any party that doesn't have a crafted build (or god forbid a riftbender). I'll make it easy for you guys by posting the build I use (I main Bloodbath on my Warrior):

https://hppeng-wynn.github.io/build...0361004Z61004Z61007l60z0z0+0+0+0+0-1TlNvnVx-0
WynnBuilder build:
> Caesura
> Delirium
> Tera
> Crusade Sabatons
> Olive
> Intensity
> Binding Brace
> Tenuto
> Bloodbath [e6a6a6]

Bit of an explanation:
Using air powders on Bloodbath for the funny and mythical wind prison bloodlust (which is a good 1 million damage if you pull it off). However feel free to just put on 3 earth or thunder powders because admittedly I'm not finding much success with it, especially in parties. buff wind prison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your playstyle is to enter corrupted, spam uppers with a bash to reset costs, bloodlust when ur at very low hp by switching to your RotS, heal up with RotS, switch back, repeat. Doing this reliably gets you to 400k dps for a pretty tanky build with high mobility to boot, without crafteds too. Not to mention buffing your team with war scream and armour breaker. And as long as you regularly use your RotS you have no risk of dying. Just be wary of air attacks (you have -500 air defense so you die to prolonged farts)

I'd say any Bloodbath build that can use RotS as an offhand is viable.

Also, wtf are you thinking removing the -mr from Bloodbath, that is the entire identity of the weapon bruh. You're taking the mr gimmick and putting it in a major ID that is OP as fuck. Like, there is just no need for that major ID. The MR is the major ID

Lastly, your fix for Bloodbath is omega buffing it and removing all of its downsides. not to mention butchering the design and making it even worse in terms of QoL by having Corrupted literally kill you even when you're not doing anything.

I won't say Bloodbath is the epitome of perfection but I'm getting fed up with people saying it's bad. AND GIVING IT A MAJOR ID IS NOT THE SOLUTION!!!! Besides, the item makers are never going to add a major ID to this item, they are even more staunch about it than me. Focus on the actual issues at hand, namely Rally being a requirement for any Warrior and Wind Prison being the definition of stinky cat piss.

 

could you show a fallen build with no crafteds that can outdamage bloodbath

 

YO Je

First of all I've seen this build tons of times and it has lots of problems, but if we are talking dps wise then I will simply counter by explaining a simple thing

so this build while active deals a burst of 400k dps

let's say you can use it for 10 seconds hence your dps rises as it follows the linear function y = x

in 10 seconds your dps is gonna go from 100k times 2.5 (2.5 seconds in) to 200k times 2.5 (5 seconds in) to 300k times 2.5 (7.5 seconds in) to 400k times 2.5 (around the 10 seconds mark) and then you have to heal back up (to keep things simple of course this is an approximation of that linearity)

now you just got in a total of an avarage of 2.5m damage and then you have to heal back up and cast back corruption which is gonna take a minimum of 5 seconds. Hence you are gonna have a total cycle of 15 seconds and repeat

now let's take a build that can deal 200k constantly for 15 seconds (which is pretty usual)

the avarage is 3m il 15 seconds.

(My old hero build for example can deal 250k per second consistently (and unlike bloodbath I'm disgustingly tanky too lol))

(please point out any mistake if I've made any ofc I'm open to feedback but from my experience bloodbath is completely not viable)

Hence it's not worth it to play bloodbath at all as not only is the damage lower, even if it was slightly higher it wouldn't even be worth it.

Second point: "the negative mana regen is it's main gimmick" I already extensively argued why that's not a good thing at all, I'd advise you to read that part, a quick summary would be that other weapons can achieve EASILY bloodbath's gimmick (and achieve much better results)

Third point: "The Major ID is op as fuck" I've tried to make builds with it with a couple of people and do some calculations and what happens is that TCRACK still has an higher avarage damage, but bbath ends up getting more damage (by a slight amount tho) the lower your corruption is. Tho if you can prove me otherwise then feel free imo this is just a suggestion

Fourth point: "Lastly, your fix for Bloodbath is omega buffing it and removing all of its downsides. not to mention butchering the design and making it even worse in terms of QoL by having Corrupted literally kill you even when you're not doing anything" Current Bloodbath kills you when you aren't doing anything xd not this one. As you are forced to 0 mana EVEN when you are fighting you lose hp just by charging around. Not only that but the avarage HP lost a second is MUCH lower than most bloodbath builds (even of some generalist bloodbath builds)

Tho feel free to expand your points if you still agree with what you said.

Although I again advise you to read my paragraph as I already explained everything you said there.

 

Alright, I'm going to respond to this in points.

I hate this logic; "There is no reason to play [x item]". There is no reason to play Sitis. There is no reason to play The Watched. There is no reason to play Cascade. The notion that "There is no reason to play this item" takes for granted is that you should only ever use an item when it is the best possible choice. Why would I use Bloodbath? Because I find the item interesting and want to play with it. The same reason I use any other item. If an item being "bad" means that there is "no reason to use it", then there is "no reason" to use a vast majority of items in the game; anything other than the very most optimal of items is "useless", because it's not The Very Best, and so there's "no reason" to play it.
I'm still going to respond to the other points, but I would like to state out the gate that I disagree with the very premise.

It "doesn't work" in that it has less DPS than the meta standards want. It is completely usable to complete content. The only way in that it "doesn't work" is that it can't get absurd amounts of DPS like ETW builds or 5hp fallen or what have you.
If a build can complete content perfectly fine, it works. This thread seems to assume that if a build is not The Best and doesn't conform to meta standards it's a "bad build".

"it's not the best option available so why would i use it"
Because it's an interesting and unique item with a gimmick that other weapons don't have?

You know my opinions on this by now. However, this point is actually one of the first that I agree with to some extent; perhaps Bloodbath should deal more damage, to counteract its downsides.

(Not sure why you referred to healing as "quality of life" when QoL refers to things like movement that are mostly just there for convenience.)
I agree with you on this point! Bloodbath is severely lacking in healing. But that's kind of the whole point of the item; it sacrifices healing and forces you to play on low HP.

If you don't want to build around an ET item, then don't build around an ET item.
(this is gonna be my thesis later)

We did not state that! In fact, this is very much not true. Bloodbath is not the only item that is most commonly played with Blood Pact, sure. But it certainly is a unique item. It is the only spear that takes away your mana regen to an intense degree, but it also reduces your health, making Blood Pact less harmful, since it removes less raw health and is easier to heal back up. It gives the second most skill points out of any spear, and has the second most life steal. There is no other item that looks like Bloodbath.
Your issue is that when an item is not The Best, you immediately call it "useless". This is the natural conclusion of that. Bloodbath, in your eyes, is not "unique", because it does not "stand out" by being the best item in any field.

Sure, just like how you can slap Gale's Sight and you have a build that looks like Idol but doesn't actually get anywhere near to what a real Idol build looks like. Yes, I will admit that more interesting items exist, but Bloodbath is in no way "boring".

I'd also like to point out the hypocrisy in this statement.
You're complaining about Bloodbath for being unoriginal, and you've previously praised Thrundacrack. And yet, Thrundacrack is wildly unoriginal and boring compared to Bloodbath. It has a list of incredibly generic IDs, which don't even affect its gameplay that much, since Thrundacrack is just a damage stick.
Of course, the reason you are not complaining about Thrundacrack is that Thrundacrack is meta, and it is the best item in its field.
That does not make it interesting, but it satiates you, because you only think an item is "worth using" if it is optimal and meta.

[]
Removing the -mr completely destroys the item and removes its identity.

. . . And there we have it. The assertion, written out, that an item is not "worth using" as long as there are items that are better than it.
In a game with thousands of items to pick from, it's a tragedy how commonplace this logic is. It restricts you to nothing but the best of the best, and you miss out on so many fun and interesting items and so many unique builds.



Here's my thesis.
You don't want to play Bloodbath.
And that's alright.

You complain about the item extensively for not being the best, and you want to destroy its identity and add new mechanics to it. That does not mean that you want to improve Bloodbath, it means that you want a different item to use. And there's nothing wrong in not being partial to a certain item or other! But that does not mean that the item is unplayable and that there's "no reason" to use it. If you do not want to play with or build around a particular item, then don't. It is as simple as that.
Of course, this doesn't mean that there's no reason to not buff any items; yes, some items do deserve buffs. What you suggest, though, is not a "buff" - it is a "complete rework" - and your logic for it rests on flawed premises.

________________________________

(i think i was like really aggressive there. my apologies. i'm just tired of people using this logic.)

 

This is true. You deal 400k dps in bursts. With a wind prison bloodlust you can make up for the 5 seconds downtime as that can deal 1 million dmg (which would be equivalent to 200k dps over 5 seconds) though. However, doing that isn't too easy

200k dps isn't usual, that's pretty high end for non-crafted.

with old do you mean pre-2.1? Also, isn't your build crafted?

Saying this is of course ridiculous. Bloodbath not meeting the exact dps that a completely different build with different mechanics reaches does not make it unusable. Anything near 200k dps with survivability is more than enough to be usable. Those builds aren't the ones to focus on in terms of buffs or reworks lol

Responding to this would cause a long discussion, so instead I'll leave you with a video of me beating (recently buffed) LI in 10 minutes with bloodbath as evidence that it's a perfectly fine weapon that doesn't suck as much as people keep saying.



Just give it a try. Be sure to spam uppers

 

Now I was expecting someone to say this and it is actually a fair point. But I would start by adding that I believe that mythics should feel special in some way or another. Now I'm not really a DPS guy (and I don't really care about bloodbath having high enough DPS, but I did consider it because of the gimmick it's trying to imitate and because of a hypotetical reason to use the weapon) and Idrc if it gets a damage buff or not, the main problem is that it's really not a unique weapon. ANY weapon can snap some negative mana regen items without bloodbath's downside and get a better result out of it.

As Je mentioned above, bloodbath without RotS is pretty much unplayable, hence why I mentioned an additionl healing option (the exhilarate buff) to counter this. The problem is that bloodbath doesn't reward by playing on low hp.

I actually like bloodbath being ET. The main point was being forced ET considering the absurd playstyle it forces you into. Just lowering the requirement by a total of 20 opens a lot of doors (also why I kept it ET, I do think it's fine hope that clear things up).

Yes, I kept the negative health bonus for that very reason. But I don't really see how those things you mentioned are supposed to make Bloodbath unique, it's not like you are gonna use your life steal to heal back up, and for the skill points well Hero and tcrack give lots of skill points, are they unique for that (?)

Please read carefully, I've used thrundacrack as the damage counterpart of the example, the main part was the idol one as it explains what's really the difference between a unique non major id mythic that feels unique and bloodbath. I've also never said that it's "boring", quite the opposite I mentioned that I kinda enjoyed playing bloodbath (minus all the annoying parts) and what annoys me it's the great potential it has and that its probably the only fallen mythic we'll ever get (I hope not.)

Also the negative mr as stated countless times isn't an identity as it's INSANELY easy to replicate.

I already responded this at the start xd.
I'd like to mention that appreciate the fact that someone else plays a weapon just for the sake of it (I quote that I explicity written in my post that I respect people who play bloodbath just for the sake of it), I too play off Meta weapons just because I think they are fun to play, tho I've already highlighted the problems that bloodbath has, hence you can probably see why now, I don't need it to be the best, I just want it to be unique, and currently I don't think it is.

Well hope that clears things up! Feel free to ask anything or to expand your points further, tho I'm prolly gonna reply tomorrow. Thanks for your time and for sharing your view.

 

the fire is getting more heated up damn...