World The Wynncraft Build Style Situation

I do think you make some good points but I completely disagree with what you say about the roofs. The Russian style onion domes are stolen from Mideastern buildings, it's not as thing to prevent snow. And the other roofs are kinda there because I wanted them too resemble the old roofs, small rounded arches, but when I made them like that the houses looked too boring and the little spike on top made them look more unique and interesting. What you are saying would have a point if they were large A frame roofs. I do agree the colors feel pretty cold though.

I think this also might be a case of not being able to satisfy everyone, but the reason the buildings are taller is because I needed a ton of extra space around them to make walking easier(The main paths are pretty big, I did ad some smaller ally ways on the side thoe), but it's a big central city so if they were smaller buildings it would start to look very sparse and almost like a few farm houses with a wall. The tallness makes it feel more big and filled out even though there is a lot of space cleared for players to walk. It's the same reason Detlas buildings are pretty tall. I think the only city that has smaller houses and a lot of open space is Troms, but Troms also has a ton of gardens and a very grand style so it works out.

 

I should have said "In Russia, the onion dome roofs were speculated to exist to prevent snow buildup", nobody knows for sure. There are two schools of thought, but the fact that they're also effective at preventing snow buildup probably at least contributed to them being common, if they collapsed they obviously wouldn't have been used. It also doesn't really matter which source you chose to get them from either, the result is the same.

If you were looking at a similar style from a different source that's fine but when translated into blocks it really doesn't look that way. The styles are so similar that the context of the build becomes really important in communicating the style so having an otherwise cold build makes the roofs feel like cold roofs.

I also don't have an issue with the spikes, I have an issue with the roundness because no matter what, it doesn't make sense to have rounded roofs like that in an area like Cinfras. I specifically used Brittan as an example because it's so, so close to what you have but a slightly different take which I think would have made more sense.

As for Detlas, there are a lot of factors which mitigate the issues. First, while there are narrow areas, their main purpose is really just to lead the player into the city center which is massive and open. Those narrow areas are just a walkway, all the points of interest for the city are in the wide open center area which is several times larger in terms of area than the Cinfras city center. The Detlas city center is also mostly open, it has the item ID'er in the center with the purple thing but that's so small and most of its mass is up in the air. I think the most important difference is that while the Detlas buildings are tall, they're also tiered and almost make a cone shape going into the walls which really helps with claustrophobia compared to the extremely flat walls which make a more rectangular cut out.

I forgot this in the original comment but since you mentioned Detlas, Detlas also has much wider doors into buildings, usually 5 or more blocks wide compared to Cinfras with it's tiny doors which are sometimes just one block wide in the case of the second blacksmith entrance. If it was a cold city that would make a huge amount of sense but it's not so it really doesn't.

Adding this on later, I don't see why other cities have no issue being open, Troms like you said and Llevigar have no issue being extremely large while also being very open, even old Cinfras was much more open then it is now, I really don't understand why it needs to be closed off. I also don't understand why you would say the style for Troms works for Troms because it's grand, why can't Cinfras, again the biggest city, also be grand?

I know no build is going to make everyone happy, I already went out of my way to say that but there are actual problems with the city from an architectural and design perspective, my complaints in the context of what Cinfras is supposed to be. I'm not saying that the build isn't good, I'm saying the build doesn't make sense. These aren't issues which can be fixed by adding a lamp post to the center of the city (why did that happen, it looks awful...), they're issues with the colors and shapes which for some reason, only new Cinfras has issues with.

 

Cinfras being cramped and hard to get around is the big thing for sure imo. The main corridors in particular are way too tight-feeling.

 

Before I get into completely disagreeing I will say that I do agree that Detlas has a better city center with its huge open area. I wish Cinfras could have had a bigger one, but I was very immitted and needed to stick to a pretty similar design plan as the original Cinfras. I also think that all the doors should be wider when possible, and I will look into making the doors in Cinfras buildings bigger. And I do kinda agree that the moving out of second floors that is done a lot in Detlas makes the city feel more claustrophobic. Detlas in particular has huge open areas so more was needed to make the buildings feel more close together without impeding on the paths and that was a good way to do it.

However, your point on domes is just wrong in every way. Domes are not made to prevent snow build up, Domes are used all over the world, and mostly in Mediterranean climates, not ones known for lots of snow. The pointedness of the onion domes were copied form middle eastern buildings when the Russian Empire was trying to modernize. It was more of a show of ornateness and modernity than some real architectural style to prevent snow build up. I picked the domes for that exact reason, it's a show of ornateness. Your point about roundness of the roofs is also flat out wrong. Rounded roofs are not used as a way to prevent snow build up, like, ever. I have no clue where you are getting this idea. In the rare times they are used in snowy environments it's with very modern building materials to make up for the fact that they are objectively worse than other roof designs at dealing with snow. When there is a lot of snow fall you want the snow to not build up on the roof, and sharp A frame roofs that go far over the edge of the wall are almost always used to prevent that snow build up. The roofs in Cinfras where chosen because rounded roofs are much harder to make to than other kinds, hence why there are not many used on common houses in real life. It shows a bit of a sense of excessive work put into the buildings for looks, the fact that the roundness also comes to a point at the end leads into that same excessive ornateness. It has nothing to do with snow fall. If you want to think it does, whatever, but that's just not how it works in real life.

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Do you have any suggestions on how to fix this? I can actually make some changes that could be pushed with other bug fixes at some point.

 

new patch??????????????????

edit: hotfixes also exist

 

na its just like how bug fixes get pushed sometimes, we can also push small map changes related to bugs and balance and gameplay and all that. I've made a ton of them over time and they just don't get announced often.

 

From the wikipedia page;

"Some scholars believe that onion domes first appeared in Russian wooden architecture above tent-like churches. According to this theory, they were strictly utilitarian, as they prevented snow from piling on the roof"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Church_ostrov.jpg/220px-Church_ostrov.jpg

Looks effective to me. Also, being somebody who lives in Canada, I can say with first hand experience that A-Frames are kind of horrible at keeping snow off and they are notorious for having mini avalanches, especially when things start warming up. The flat edges also build up gnarly icicles which hurt a ton when they fall on you, something which wouldn't happen with an onion roof.

Can we please not get into this stupid argument though? I know domed roofs existed all across the world for various architectural and practical purposes, that doesn't change the reality that these roofs when used with many other cold features leads to a strong association with Russian cities over the places you drew inspiration from. Having good intentions is one thing but the fact that inspiration was drawn from something with strong real world ties to both cold and warm areas means extra care is required to ensure the intended message and feelings are communicated. If you lightened up the colors, I would be comparing Cinfras to something like the Taj Mahal which I think would be an equally problematic comparison since the exact same issue would be present.

The point about the domes is that the design of Cinfras as a whole screams Russia, the domes contribute to that look but are not the determinant factor for it. That's an issue because it shouldn't look the way it does given its geography. I don't understand why a single throwaway point of about the purpose of the roof is relevant when that was clearly never the issue I had in the first place.

Getting back to the important part, I don't really understand why it was so important to stick so closely to the original city plan (beyond having the houses for the quest). I don't see why the center area couldn't be blown out and rounded out like Detlas or Corkus (which are the two best comparisons), I don't really agree that the buildings needed to be as tall as they are (at least on the main layer) and I don't get why the pathways are so narrow when most of the city on the edges is basically dead space anyways.

Again, I want to be crystal clear that the build isn't the issue, if you put it in a cold area it would literally be perfect, I'm not criticizing the build, I'm only critical of the design choices. I don't think anybody did a bad job, I just think they did the wrong job.

 

I think it mostly has to do with the tight roofs and lack of vertical space. But I'm not certain.

 

To not come off as too rude or get too into detail I'm just gunna be quick about your citation. I believe your citation is flawed and misquoted, and the idea that Cinfras is cold is just a personal opinion of yours that I won't be trying to fix. But there are other things that I can try to fix.

Basically the reason I stuck close to the original plan is because people get mad at me when I don't. Like the huge center of detlas I made for gameplay reasons, and people understand that and like it... Now. At the time it was a huge thing people didn't like and I got a lot of shit for it. There is only so much I can take, so sticking to the old layout was mostly a way for me to not go insane.

I do agree with what you said on the doors, and I will be working to fix that.

When it comes to the paths being narrow I kinda agree. That's a leftover problem that I didn't fix from the old city. I think there are a few reasons it feels that way, and they can be fixed without a total city redo.
1: the lamp in the center is relatively pretty big for the size area
2: the paths have dark lines on the edge only 3 blocks out that give off the idea that the path is only 3-5 blocks wide, when it should be more.
3: a lot of the old wall pillars block the path edges making it seem more cramped.
4: a lot of the center circle buildings are too close to the circle and if pushed back 2 blocks on all sides might give more space.

I think these are all things that I could fix to make the town feel wider on the main paths.

I think the point about all the extra space on the edge is again a symptom of me not wanting to change Cinfras too much. most of them can't be moved for quest and other reasons, but I think the Item IDer, Blacksmith/weapon area, trademarket and scroll shop can all be moved back a little. Which would open up about 4 blocks all around of space in the center. I don't think the bank should be moved back as it's pretty important.

When it comes to the darkness of the colors, mostly the roof, I just don't know what else could have been used. it needs to have stairs and slabs so it can make the ornate roof shapes that make the town, but it can't just be spruce wood or anything like that. If we had access to 1.13+ stairs and slabs Cinfras roofs would probably not have been netherbrick.





I know you are not really saying that the build sucks, I'm not taking offence to that, I just don't agree with what you say that you think it feels cold or out of place for the area.

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What do you mean by lack of vertical space? Like that there is not enough space for people to go upward? Or something else.

 

Going to start off by saying that I literally pasted in a quote regarding the origins of the roof, the sentence before discusses its origins being from Muslim countries but the point is that nobody knows for sure because this stuff is from like, 500 years ago and documentation is sparse to say the least.

More importantly, I'm not asking for anything to be fixed, I'm not even asking for something to be changed because I don't know what changes could be made since again, my issue is more on a conceptual level, no amount of opening up of doors or adding of lamps to the center of the entire city is going to fix my major concerns with the city. Actually, scratch that, removing the lamp would be good, beyond that, I've got nothing because your and the build teams goals for the city are clearly not in line with mine and no amount of complaining about minor issues is going to fix that.

During the beta, I advocated for removing a lot of the overhanging banners (flags?), removing the slabs to widen the roads, lighting up the bank and moving it to the outside walls and a whole bunch of other changes which were made in the live version and despite basically getting everything I asked for, I'm still not thrilled, not with the build team, I'm happy they listened, I'm not thrilled with the goal for the city.

Going to your four points, I think I've been clear on 1, I have no strong feelings on 2 because I think even if you made that change the large flat buildings on either side would still make it feel narrow, I agree with 3 but there's nothing that can be done about that without just worldediting the city in 2 (or 4) and adding blocks to fill the gap and I agree with 4 but I don't think that's going to give nearly enough space to make a difference. The one thing I asked for which I didn't get was removing the stairs leading into certain buildings, mainly the blacksmith, since they force you or at least encourage you to look up which is honestly awful since it just contributes to the whole claustrophobia feeling but that's not something I would expect to see changed any time soon.

While I understand the desire to keep things the same, I disagree that the goal was even accomplished, the city changed radically and no amount of keeping the same layout was ever going to negate that reality. Keeping the bank, item ID'er and blacksmith all in relatively similar places for the sake of keeping things the same feels like an arbitrary place to draw the line when conceding on that could have allowed the center of the city to be much more open while also giving more points of interest to the left and right paths off the center. If it was up to me, I probably wouldn't have put any buildings on the entire far edge (edge with the bank and item ID'er) since it would have opened up the city by a massive amount, would have put more focus on the guild hall and the airbase and could have really reduced the claustrophobic feeling since there would only really be walls on one side. The bank also could have been moved to the guild hall if we're being honest, it's kind of weird to have two banks so close to each other and the guild hall is fairly empty.

As for the cool colors only being in the roofs, I strongly disagree with that. Stone brick and the terracotta used are both blue tinted blocks, they're cool shades, the roofs using spruce and netherbrick are both red/orange tinted which makes them warm. When you're walking through the city, the vast majority of what you see are the stone brick and terracotta walls and floor which means almost all of what you're looking at are cool and also extremely desaturated colors which is what you expect to see on a cold day. I found a picture to describe what I'm trying to explain;

https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2016/12/WB_feat.jpg

Bottom obviously looks horribly lit and out of place, snow is also just a coincidence, but the point is Cinfras used to look much more like the bottom since it was all wood and now it looks like the top which I believe doesn't fit the style of what the city should be.

 

What you are saying about the tints is why I really wanted the roof lines to be orange like the windows lol. I liked it because it added a bit of warmth and brightness to the city, but people were angry at me and said it didn't match and I should use a darker block like the rest of the roof.

I will say the bank IDer and blacksmith not being moved is because they are the 3 generally most important things in the city, and placing them all right next to each other is important. Not having a bank and moving it to the guild hall would have, even though they are kinda close together, would be a huge walking distance if you wanted to ID something and put it away, or sell to a blacksmith and then go back to the bank all the way far off. Same for using a trade market. It's just not real good level design even if it makes logical sense.

I do remember getting a lot of feedback and making the changes you suggested, and if you just don't like how the city was designed conceptually that's fine.

I can change point 3 quite easily by just redesigning some of the pillars so they don't leach onto the path as much. I don't need to world edit the city. I can also do point 4 quite easily and I believe in combination with point 1 it will make quite a difference. This is probably something I will do soon and it will be pushed whenever we do a a push for bug fixes.

 

Just wanted to add my 2 cents for the sake if it :)
So first i wanna say that new Cinfras is 100% > than old cinfras. It feels more vibrant and very "damn that forest was killer i just need to put my stuff awa- oh shit thats a big ass city" and less "oof that forest was tough- man this city seems really old" I love the bank with the emerald pillar in the center and the way the blacksmith/other npcs are set up is amazing. I really think they are well placed and fit the theme.

However...
I think the issue that's trying to be put across is that it no longer feels like cinfras. Old cinfras was very structured, linear, and open. The houses were all cookie cutter and they had major city styled streets(everything in block patterns to keep it organized). The streets were massive and open and felt like they were used every minuet. The center of the town was huge and honestly was the best part. Overall everything in old cinfras felt more roomy. In the updated one it feels way to cramped. I get the feeling of big city with limited space. Not big city that's actively growing. There's alot of crowded buildings (bank, blacksmith, identifier, etc) and tons of roads that no longer have that grand size to them. The style isn't the issues to me, its the placement and proportions. I think that if they city was simply "aired out" a bit more it would feel more like cinfras, the big capital city, not a cramped overpopulated maze.

 

Also with this. I belive your using the uncany vally effect yes? Its really close to human just just slightly off. I love the idea of this as it does fit EO, however I think the visual representation didnt fully work. IMO if thats what your trying for. Id make EO a conglomerate of slightly off wynn/gavel towns. So EO would be made up of the parts of diffrent cities that the creators(dern) liked. However since they are mimicing what they liked its still slightly off. IF EO was to ever be remade (ik it wont) I suggest having a mineature city outfront. Have areas from Amhsord, detlas, cinfras, etc that make up the city but have them squwed. So have buildings that are made with line designs, but make the lines shifted or angled. Have buildings that are 1-2-3 blocks off from one another. Have an almost linear design. That would cause the uncanny effect imo, which would causes red flags in the player and giving the creeped out effect

 

Lmao, my point with the picture was that old Cinfras actually did look like the bottom of that picture since it was mostly made of wood, what I tried (and didn't really succeed) to communicate was that the tint of wood is warm so if I was pitching a block palette change I would suggest throwing a medium wood (whatever the closest to vanilla oak in the pack is) in and build from there instead of working from the darker and cooler blocks like stone bricks and the gray(?) terracotta.

For the locations of stuff, I really don't get that. If it was consistent in the game across all cities I would be more understanding but when Detlas got reworked, basically everything got moved except the bank so I don't really agree with that. As for the bank being a long walk from everything else, Llevigar, Selchar, Almuj, Ahmsord and Thanos, all major cities, are all extremely spaced out. The walk from the city center to the hall isn't even that far, if it was moved there the walk from the blacksmith and ID'er would still be shorter then or in line with other cities. Cities like Detlas where everything is centralized are more of an exception then a rule but if that's really an issue I also don't see why the guild hall/airbase couldn't also have an item ID'er, power person and blacksmith, it would be cool if the guild hall/airbase was a more important point of interest and the airbase already has all sorts of shops in it, why not those?

I'm not asking for this, but I'm just want to point out that these "issues' aren't really issues and if they are, they're not without easy solutions. Whether or not you like the solutions to them is one thing but they're definitely easy fixes.

I appreciate that the changes were made, I don't mean to take the credit for them, I wrote a post in the beta but I was far from the only one with concerns and the fact that you and the others are listening is of course very good to hear and see. As I recall though, the lamp post was also a suggestion so maybe you should get a little more selective with the complaints you take action lol.

The thing about freeing up path space is that I don't think an extra block on each side is enough which is why I mentioned world edit to split the city down the cardinal roads. Realistically, I think the paths should probably be at least 4 or even 6 wider, maybe even 8 with some added tents to the edges or something to build a slope into the tall buildings. A couple extra blocks is nice I guess but I can't imagine it's going to do much to fight off the claustrophobic feeling.

If you're not on board (understandably I might add) with the idea that there's a fundamental issue with the style, I think the best fix I can suggest would be to make the center almost the same as Detlas in terms of size, maybe a little smaller since the center should be empty, and to round it out in the same way by cutting into the bank, item ID'er house and the blacksmith (which would also fix the narrow door issue for the most major buildings). I think if the blacksmith was outside or under an overhang again, maybe mirror it with the item ID'er on the opposite corner and cut back that building too, a lot of the issues with the city center would be resolved without any moving of NPC's, any (more) expansion of the paths and any massive amount of destruction. I also think removing the lamp and replacing it with a more decorative floor design/pattern using bricks, wood or something light and warm could also do a lot to lighten up the build where it matters. In short, I think making the city center more open it would do a lot to make the city less cramped.

Since I've already made a laundry list of unreasonable changes, now also feels like a good time to throw in the pitch for a semi functional clock (maybe updating every 15 min) on the outside of the guild hall, I'm thinking you could raise the roof and throw it in the extra space towards the top, kind of like the Big Ben. Would also tie into the clock mystery since the world quest is kind of based around the city last I checked.

Also, take your time with changes to the city lmao, I appreciate the enthusiasm but there's absolutely no rush and I don't want you thinking that I or anyone (I hope) is trying to push you to get this stuff done ASAP. I imagine we're still at least 6 months out, probably more, from 1.21 but I think a Cinfras revision, like Cinfras 2.1 with all the minor issues sorted, could be a nice addition to the changelog. Might just be me though.

 

Honestly, that's a pretty cool idea. I've actually made concepts for slanty houses and stuff like that before. Idk if it fits being outside the dungeon, maybe somewhere else thoe who knows 0_0

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I get that the roads feel more cramped, but the main roads are actually almost exactly the same size as before. I think the only difference is it had a *2blockcenter before and now it has a 1block one. I think the issue is that there is more stuff encroaching on those roads, whereas before there was not. Also the roads had the same huge pattern all the way to the edge, but now the pattern makes the roads feel smaller. Both are being addressed already.

I checked and no it wasn't a 2 block center.... however.



The main road to the guild hall is 1 block on each side wider than the current paths, but every other road is actually 1 block shorter than the current paths. It really shows how people think the current roads are a lot smaller, even when 3.5 times out of 4 they are bigger than the old ones, but because the environment they are around changes it makes them feel a lot smaller. That's why I believe changing the environment slightly will be a lot more important than making the roads bigger.

 

hey, quickly pointing out here that there are many things that hint towards EO being built by the Olm, not Dern, so it is much more likely for the case to be that way

 

EO was built by YahYa lmao

 

Llevigar, Selchar, Almuj, Ahmsord and Thanos also have the big problem of their important buildings being spaced out. And even though they are large cities, they are not central cities like Detlas or Cinfras. The point about the important buildings being close to each other is what we do when we remake cities, it was not something we focused on before. That's why Detlas seems like an exception, becuase it was the first city to put that principle into play. If you don't feel keeping the bank ID and blacksmith, and market close to each other is necessary, that's fine, but a lot of players do, and that is why we put them close to each other in new cities and remade cities.

I do agree that the center should be bigger like detlas.

 

I can agree with this as one of the most annoying things imo is when you just lootran or have a lot of items and sorting through everything takes an hour bc the bank identifier and blacksmith are like 100 blocks apart

(also one of my favorite towns is ahmsord specifically because of the fact that the identifier is literally right in the middle of all the banks so it’s extremely convenient)

 

I'm not saying I don't think it's important personally, that's why I suggested moving everything into the hall/airbase, I just don't agree that it's extremely important that everything is centralized in a circle like Detlas, I think having to walk across a small bridge isn't enough to constitute "too far" and if it's the cost for more open space then that's a trade off I would be happy to see.

I'm also going take that as a maybe on putting the blacksmith and item ID'er outside and a hard no on the clock :(