Game Mechanics Many ways to improve Wynn

mobs deal too much damage? imo its the complete opposite, mobs dont punish players nearly enough as they should

 

No one else has responded, so I guess it's my turn now.
Due to not wanting to accelerate a brewing flame war, I'm only going to cover the Wynncraft-related parts.

Based in what you've said, I'm going to assume that you're referring mainly to bossfights here.

I'm fairly sure this was intended by the developers, to make endgame bosses more challenging. Even so, they should all be beatable with a decent build and a few attempts.

You can still evade these enemies with your movement spell, and are meant to be hard to evade, it's part of the challenge.

The mobs that do this don't do it often enough to be untouchable, and can still be damaged when they stop moving.

This isn't really Wynncraft's fault,

 

You got many points, but some I'd argue.

First, demanding insane health / damage is quite problematic and are raised commonly as game getting advanced. Like I stated from the very post / comments, because Wynn doesn't have any manual gameplay mechanic that ignore damage either completely or mostly like dodging / blocking / etc glass cannon builds are very underhwleming, thus most people don't ever try it.

Second, as for the movement spell you're right. But spell is relying on mana, and some mobs enforce you to spam movement spell a lot. But because not everyone have fast walk speed or fast mana regen with low cost, again the design punishes players without them.

Third, players sure can reach airborne mobs. Thing is movement spell especially warrior's renders too much particle - the main source of lag - and made mobs stuck inside blocks. Also having to wait whilst they're airborne is pretty boring. Why would you keep such flawed and boring design when it only serve sole purpose - make players move camera.

Closing: For me, I'm playing Wynn cause it offers fascinating creativity, and it's sad to see how the game forces player to have above and beyond EHP, constant backwalk, etc to be competitive. Thanks for being civil and respective unlike others.

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Have some respect before anything else, you shouldn't be proud of yourself.

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If so how could you explain competitive build having at least one survival stats.
Let ETW thrive...

 

Because not every elemental combination should be "viable". In fact, ETW is actually quite viable if built correctly (for example: divzer can survive assuming youre not facetanking, since it has great lifesteal), and I'd argue it's less fun if every archetype worked in every situation all the time. Take WFA for example- it has incredible survivability usually, but the damage would make a grown man cry. Should we buff it so that it does more damage? Would that be fair?

The point of having each stat point is for players to build around their existence. Playing ETW because you think it's fun is a choice, and there should be no reason that mobs do less damage (a direct buff to every other archetype too might I remind you) just because one specific weird build doesn't let you facetank.

If you think ETW is bad, please try one of the following:
1) Stop getting hit
2) Get a better build with actual sustain
3) Stop trying to brute force your way through the game, and accept that glass cannon is just that- glassy

 

Well this was what I expeted all along, glad to see.

"Not evey elemental combination should be viable"

You're correct, also it doesn't make sense for tank builds deal high damage as damaging builds should. But viable and doable is different matter. Let alone facetank... if only mobs were mainly using their spells it may be possible to not get hits, but Wynn gave mobs unreactable melee or normal attacks if you will. Whats even worse is damage difference between tank and glass cannon builds are not huge - not even worth to try it. You also claimed good point where weakening enemies will favours existing viable builds even further - they should be nerfed, at least in tank aspect they should. As for your recommend of having some form of sustain, the game doesn't provides much sustainability besides having defense / agility. Imagine game that should have either defense / agility (perhaps both) just to survive. Insult to injury, IMs are trying their best to punish thunder builds by giving them low health, negative stats, etc when the game isn't capable of survive without them. Plus glass cannon builds - the thunder - are hated by mechanics even. Wynn's design of thunder element is fast and lethal but glassy, now the problem raise that the fast attack speed is bad at sustain - remember the section I mentioned [Atlas] bracelet? Combined with damaging mobs and thunder's nature, glass cannon builds are just not competitive enough. Some may find workaround and managed to play with it but at the end of the day, when you say to yourself "Are glass cannons viable in Wynn?" the answer is "no".

Tl;dr;
1. Wynn made mobs' attack unreactable - not get hits is not possible unless archer.
2. Glass cannon builds are not doing enough damage to outshine tank builds but are heavily punished anyways.

 

If glassier builds aren’t able to outshine tank builds, why is it that glassy mythics consistently sell for more than tank ones, with some exceptions? It’s not like they’re any rarer necessarily

Mob attacks are absolutely reactable- mage has tp, assassin has vanish, warrior and shaman lack great disengagement options against CCI mobs but that’s more of a function of class issues than mob problems, and most heavy attacks are telegraphed well in advance (eg PZ’s wave)

What suggestions do you have for making ETW “more viable”? If, in spite of all the downsides these builds have, people still choose to use perfect play + ETW and it’s only rising in popularity (for example, with Bete Noire and Warchief prices rising heavily due to their extensive use in ETW), what do you think a buff would do to those build types?

 

Not everyone owns mythic and its no doubt mamy will choose 30k+ EHP builds over thunder when it only deals 3k less damage (not always 3k obviously). Sure you can use movement spells or even stuns mob to not get hits, but the so called challenging mobs says otherwise. Immune to CC, immune to knockback, fast walk speed, the list goes on (Some of their attacks are indeed very telegraphed, I agree).
I'm not saying you can't evade even a single hit but you'll take most hits inevitably.
As for the market pricing, they do reflects meta yet they're mythics after all - and just see which thunder mythics are rated badly, moreover thunder mythics that are priced high are having insane damage so they can compete other mythics. That's what thunder should be, unfortunately it wasn't a case for few and without mythic, thunder greatly fells out of meta.

Edit: just saw you asked for my suggestions to make glass cannons viable, I already commented this in my post / previous comments but writing it anyways because you showed great interests and it was fun talked to you.

I believe crits should proc life steal, even through spells. Most glass cannons can actually survive one or two hits (it depends) but the problem is damage taken is too big its not safe to go out and hits even more, instead you'll patch your wounds. Even as a mage, you'll take most time healing at cost of DPS then go out again, land few more hits, run back, it cycle. In result, dealing less DPS as well as having low EHP. Spell steal may sounds crazy but because glass cannons have so little EHP they're nowhere to be tanky as EHP monsters (Health regen is not just viable enough to sustain as glass cannon and locking resurrect healings behind potions / mage's heal is not a good gameplay design anyways). Rainbow builds will be super overpowered if then but I belive IMs can give rainbow items negative percent life steal or smth.

 

multi hit would like to know your location

 

Adjust life steal items or let players only able to proc lifesteal once per spell.

 

Mos mobs aren't immune to CC anymore, the devs reworked it so that you can still CC them, just with a cooldown.
Without CC immunity/fast ws, about half of bosses would be easily defeated by just kiting them, which would make for incredibly boring gameplay.

 

I absolutely agree that LS and MS need a rework, their current iteration is weird as fuck. I would however say that non mythic thunder weapons are actually quite good (cluster, thrunda ripsaw/black, etc.), and the fact that certain items get overshadowed (e.g: everyone and their mom using olily instead of cluster) is less an issue with thunder's design and more with the fact that alternatives re downright OP.

Also, when you're building for thunder, a good build won't sacrifice like 30k ehp for 3k extra dps, trust me. Let's take assassin for example. I have two builds, one with 98k ehp and 16k multis, and one with 24k ehp and 21k multis (both mostly mythicless, I know literally any good mythic would outperform). Now, it might seem stupid to choose a build that throws away a whopping 74k ehp for what seems like just 5k damage, but think about how much extra damage in terms of % you're dealing. This is why damage values can be deceiving- even small changes in spell damage values means massive DPS changes, especially if you have a fast spell cycle.

 

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Hmm I agree on you with on that point, fact minecraft isn't really combat driven so flawed design might be the only solution, though definitely need to tune values in variety of things.

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Fully agree on you this time around.

Closing: After our sincere discussion, now I'm start thinking it's more of an items' design that has built up all these flaws and overpowered items spec up mobs, it cycle. Hope Wynn oneday hit that sweet spot.

 

D

Definitely agree, a lot of issues in this game roughly boil down to "a lot of items aren't designed all that great" which is kinda important since the game is so build-dependent. Good talking with you!

 

Based

 

Glass builds are underpowered because it's not possible to balance them otherwise. There are simply too many multiplicative damage boosters that aren't locked to offensive archetypes. The base damage of a weapon, which is influenced by rarity, usually dictates the amount of damage that can be done. This is why mythic weapons are so much stronger than their legendary counterparts, and why rarities below that aren't even viable. The same goes for vanish in HM, and SSac in Hero builds. To an extent, cursestacking also falls under this category, since it's a drastic additive booster, more potent in defensive builds, stacks with itself, benefits multiple players, dependent on a major ID that behaves multiplicatively, and widely available to defensive archetypes. Strdex sought to fix this, but it doesn't provide a full resolution whilst the underlying problems remain unchecked.

With regards to class building and item design, a vast majority of problems trace back to poor developer decisions as opposed to poor balance.

 

On Playtime and experience:



On Mobs and balance:
I can see where the idea that mobs are unbalanced. They are balanced, but as you reach higher levels in order to do well you need good builds, a team, or both. Obviously, better builds should be more capable, and endgame challenges should be challenging to the best of the best, there shouldn't be a 'walk in the park' build. Perhaps the larger problem is the variety in the effectiveness of builds. I argue that there should be cases where in endgame builds uniques are feasibly considered as options (other than our usual 5ish - medeis, pro tempore, the stokers, tenuto etc). The difference between uniques and legendaries should not be a large difference in their overall effectiveness but more effective items at one thing should have larger downsides in another. Lunar spine or warp are good examples of what a mythic may look like - so crazily invested into the idea that the downsides are massive. What it shouldn't look like is an economy where there are some items that are clearly better than others and are always used.


On CC and CCI:
Crowd Control is good as a mechanic, and Crowd control immunity is a cheap way to make your bosses harder. Good thing our devs thought about this after CCI initially flopped, and now bosses only have partial crowd control immunity, and only immune to what makes sense that they'd be immune to! Turns out what we have now works great and the majority of players don't have a problem with it.


On Glass Cannons:
This partially ties into what I said earlier. Class cannon builds shouldn't require mythics to be usable. That aside though, glass cannons are named that way because they are specifically fragile. Wynn is good because you can spec your build to be more tanky or have more damage - sure, you can to 30,000 damage in a single spell, but you're likely gonna have 5000 hp or less. if your connection and skill aren't good enough to play glass, just tone down the damage a bit and you'll be better off, while still being a glass cannon.

On the Spell/Melee dynamic:
They're both viable and pretty equal overall. Agree that hp/ls could use a 10-15% buff across the board though. It's good enough as is tho.

 

I’ve barely read most of what’s on this thread but saw this and just wanted to pop in and say that CCI is still pretty flawed. I wrote about it in feedback a while back but here’s a run down. Excluding bugs, CCI timers are one-note meaning certain spells have less overall “effectiveness” than others. For example, spells like uppercut, bomb arrow and bash to an extent do not have any issues with the brief period of vulnerability of which a mob’s CCI timer is down, whereas spells that require more time like arrow storm, multi-hit and aura (keep in mind both aura travel time and the time it takes to pull mobs towards the totem), are crippled far more and therefore “less-effective”. Team environments especially are questionable with CCI (best example being Orphion) as there is a variety of classes with spells with varying degrees of debuffs. Mage’s ice snake has a superior slowness duration to that of the ones present in bomb arrow and bash, but because those spells are utilized within spell based builds for DPS, it’s highly unlikely that mage’s superior debuff will ever actually come into play. It’s a similar thing for knockback and blindness to a small degree.

 

I want to make this clear that this is how CCI was always supposed to be, in its current state. How it is now is how I proposed it initially- the reason that it was the blunt hammer approach before was due to dev-time being at an absolute premium. At that point there wasn't enough time to make it more specific like I'd intended, but the negative feedback did prove that a more nuanced approach was really necessary for CCI to work in any respect.

I do agree with this, and it's not something I'd really planned for since, at the point where I began to suggest immunities(2018/19), raids were hardly a twinkle in Salted's eye thanks to circumstances refusing to line up properly. Multiplayer content basically consisted of Bob's Tomb. I'll 100% admit this is a very single player-oriented system, though I'm not really certain how to handle fixing this as that's A) more dev time and B) I just straight-up don't have any ideas.