World [ready For Ct] Early Game Mage Change Megathread

ok factually incorrect. heal earlygame may not be AS strong as late game but its still very powerful. remember that you heal others more than you heal yourself. where every other class has to have upwards of 15 healpots inorder to quest/dungeon without going to a bank, mage has an infinite healpot. "too much mana" yes thats intended. early game you only have like 500 hp (lvl 15ish) and heal regen is the main source of hp recovery. think abt it. if i have 40hpr and 500 hp, how long is it gonna take me to heal to full? Early game heal spell (and even late game) is made to be an emergency major heal, like you took alot of dmg and what not. Also reminder that mage is NOT A FACETANK. alot of things i hear from new players is that mage sucks because u cant facetank mobs with heal spell. your a thin dude with wizard robes vs and undead armored solider, who is tougher. dont blame heal spell for incompitence lol. Mage early game is not as easy as other classes for various reasons, but dont shit on heal spell at any lvl when it looks like you dont know how powerful it is.

 

https://www.wynndata.tk/i/king+of+hearts

 

When people look at the title of your suggestion and they see [DONE], they might initially think that the suggestion has been implemented (i.e. they looked at your suggestion, approved it, and made the early-game mage better), as opposed to you being done with the suggestion.

 

maybe just buff mage melee weapons at start of game because it doesn't have attack spells?

 

But then they can do insane dmg with the early game weapons right after 21 with meteor’s 500% dmg

 

I kind of don't want to respond to this; I understand heal is useful in these ways.

I recognize that I wasn't giving heal enough credit.

Also, I looked at your profile and saw you play a lot of mage classes, so you probably know what you're talking about -- awesome.

I don't think you did anything wrong; some hypixel skyblock non was sh*ting on a spell that's good if you can use it right, and you had to step in because it only makes sense.
PS: I actually have decent experience (not a vet tho), I didn't join yesterday; please don't devalue my ideas.

Heal spell is useful as an emergency heal, given perfect circumstances.

However, I think that there are still issues with it, and those issues were what I was blindly focused on.

I'll explain those issues further on (this doesn't include issues with playing support), but note that right now the relevant discussion is whether or not heal spell should be changed so early game mages can play support healer roles better. I think you're fine with these changes, because they'll theoretically allow for healers to better keep "facetanks" and other teammates alive; you pointed out that heal spell isn't great at keeping "facetanks" alive yourself.

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Issues:
Although it's instant, compared to just chugging a heal pot and using a movement spell to get out, heal takes like 6 mana, so you can't escape as far. The mana cost is actually higher in many cases. I'll name a few.

1: Grinding mobs.
This scenario assumes like flat ground that you can easily teleport on.

You're at like 30% hp. You want to first teleport away (2-4 mana, depending on build), and then heal (4-6 mana, depending on build). Now you're at 45% (or 50% at level 16). You teleport away again, as the mobs are drawing closer (2-4 mana), and heal again (4-6 mana). You're at 60% or 70% hp now, with around 0 to 8 mana, depending on your build. If you're lucky and have enough mana for another teleport (this kind of build is probably around like level 17 - 20, late early game), you might have enough time to regenerate your mana and resume the grind. If you aren't, you're a sitting duck that's about to be swarmed and obliterated.

Emergency heal definitely saved your life, but if you were less skillful, if wynn lagged, or if the mobs were faster you'd be in trouble (swarmed with mobs, can't do anything)

For example, on Mt. Wynn, the mobs almost immediately swarm and catch up to you, dealing most of your health in a few moments


2: Charge boss fight
You're at like 30% hp. You want to first teleport away (2-4 mana, depending on build), and then heal (4-6 mana, depending on build). Now you're at 45% (or 50% at level 16). They charge up a charge attack. You teleport away again, barely escaping it (2-4 mana), and heal again (4-6 mana). You're at 60% or 70% hp now, with around 0 to 8 mana, depending on your build. If you're lucky and have enough mana for another teleport (this kind of build is probably around like level 17 - 20, late early game), you might have enough time to regenerate your mana and resume the grind. If you aren't able to scrape together enough mana before the boss charges again, all your hard work healing yourself is null

Emergency heal definitely saved your life, but if you were less skillful, if wynn lagged, or if the boss was faster you'd be in trouble (they charge onto you and you're in the same situation minus all your mana)


In both of these scenarios, heal was useful, but it wasn't sustainable without a good build. You definitely bring up good points, but I think you neglect to consider what comes after you use up most of your mana.

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I'll call it [READY for CT], ty

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yup, that's what they were saying, sounds good

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I think he meant to buff it like creature and strikeflame wanted, idk, wasn't too specific of a response

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alright so it looks like there hasn't been much criticism to the so called "ultimate fix" thingy so I'll change it to ready

 

cough cough we dont talk abt the king cough

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+sorry if i come off as agressive, im more blunt with my points. i dont wanna devalue your ideas as its critical for older and newer players to comunicate diffrences. since us older players dont play alot of early game we dont see the issues that new players see. your ideas and feedback are very important and should not be tossed out because your "new"

agreed, however along the lvl road its used as often as a "hello there rando ima cast heal for 2 mana"

Alright. However i do think that heal earlygame for support is ok. think of it like this. you just basically got the spell, so you and your character need to learn it more inorder to get a stronger less crude version (final lvl spell). early game heal is just made to be and "oh shit i have no hp" spell. your HPR and ability to run away should keep you alive for the rest. HOWEVER I do agree that early game mage should have some newer wands with -heal spell (with very low dmg) to help new support class players. So they can figure out what they wanna play before they are at endgame.

Only on -intel and early game rlly. Once you hit like lvl 50ish your heal is 3-2 and or 1 depending on your gear.

i think i see a patern here

I def agree with this. i get my ass chewed up like gum in TCC so i feel that pain ;-;

I do see a pattern. Ok try this: your in a bad spot your chillin at 20% and there r mobs. Use your tp spell 2-3 times to get out of the area, that should be far enough away to lose agro to bosses/ have mobs despawn. then use heal or wait for MR to cast heal. pulse Tp is mediocre endgame tactics but not very mana efficient. hope that helped

 

wasn't too bothered, thx for the advice

 

the fact that you can even reliably exit via tp is an overwhelming advantage compared to the likes of shaman (which doesn't always have a good haul at disposal) and archer (escape sucks for its intended use case since it's easily hitstunnable).

no class on any build is going to do well in a situation where you're swarmed and about to take massive incoming burst, especially not at early game where you have fewer defensive resources. relative to others, mage's performance under these conditions is par, and i'd be concerned if you received built-in tools to circumvent that so early in the game.

i don't think the average player is going to consider leaving a battle entirely. in bad situations the natural response would be to tp to a reasonable distance and attempt to fight safely from there (you might debate whether that's feasible on mage or not, but it shouldn't change the behaviour). further, it's contradictory to bolt away in a party and abandon allies, since this strategy would expose them to the entirety of the enemy aggro.

 

Changing a class like this seems a little redundant ultimately, if it were changing a class as a whole then fine but the frame of time your talking about, 1-20ish is just so short that making such changes takes away from time that could be spent on quests that people are gonna spend alot more time on.

 

Reacting to this for clarification. For reference for others, I'm the one behind this comment:

Spoiler: "This comment"

My look on things:
Spells basically aren't viable for any clas early game, but least so for mage. More equally supported playstyles would be nice. Currently heavy poison is without a doubt the best supported playstyle for early game mage. Two things can be done to incentivise people into different playstyles: Nerf heavy poison or buff other playstyles. The other playstyles for mage lack in comparison to the same playstyles for other classes, so I think we should buff other playstyles instead.

Since spell builds aren't gonna be a thing for early mage, the standard build types for melee playstyles would be:
Heavy melee
(heavy) Poison
fast raw melee
cancel/tierstack

Poison is already good enough and cancel/tierstack isn't gonna happen because early game items can't really have huge drawbacks and attack speed bonus is so good it'd disincentivise people from switching their gear for a lot of levels, and heavy melee is an option in my eyes but would need alot of support and has the problem that if you don't completely build around it, it's kinda bad.

Quite some early armor pieces, notably Thoraic (from a quest) and the bear set (no need to rely on drops), as well as accessories that give raw melee damage. I propose adding in two super fast wands to better capitalise on those raw melee items. One around the level of thoraic and one around the level of the bear set. Something like:
View attachment 173680 View attachment 173682

I agree with the first sentence you're parafrasing me for here. Although I specifically want super fast wands, super slow wands wouldn't be bad, but they'd just be there because more different items is good.

Spoiler: reasoning why specifically super fast wands

Spells suck early game, they do for all classes. The only way to make mage even remotely a support class in the early game without changing the mechanics as they are is to give them a wand with like -50% heal cost and some mana regen but bad damage. (Call it Prince of Hearts or something lmao) the problem with that is that such a wand would be good for the entire playthrough and non-stop sticking with the same item isn't fun

As far as melee archetypes go, there are four basic types.
Heavy melee
- Heavy melee requires alot of items working together before it's good enough. If it doesn't, each heavy melee item would be overpowered. Completely requiring a set at such an early level is kinda supid. So heavy melee won't work in the early game.

(heavy) Poison
- this is already the meta and it is good enough, no need to buff it. No need to nerf it either, the other melee archetypes are just too bad.

fast raw melee
- I think this is the best option for contesting with poison. The support pieces are already in place, most notably thoracic and the bear set, the first each new player will have because of the sewers of Ragni quest, and the second people can easily buy if they know where to look. Fast raw melee is currently already decently good for mage, but a super fast wand would allow it to compete with heavy poison.

Raw melee + super fast attack speed is also one of the most intuitive good synergies out there, so new players are more likely to notice it.

cancel/tierstack
- just like heavy melee, requires alot of items to get right. Also, early game items with +attack speed sounds like a hell to balance in such a way that they don't become something people use for 30+ levels.




notably, some things could be done with major IDs to fix some early mage problems but major ids arent introduced until lvl 30 and I don't think that level should be lower to be honest.

I also don't like buffing wands themselves but adding + 3rd spell cost or something. Negating people from using a spell they don't have is unnecessarily confusing.

The real reason I'm quoting here is because of the second line you parafrased me for.
I am against buffing the base damage of early game wands to be around that of daggers.
Mage has (in my eyes) the best melee attack when we look at the attack itself. It has a good range and great AOE. The only thing holding it back is the damage it deals. If you give it similair damage to an assassin, suddenly mage is just a better assassin in the early game.

This is why the lvl 7 wand I gave as an example has only a little over half the damage of a very similair lvl 8 dagger.

 

Yeah, just wanted to point out that mage doesn't really save you in these situations, just as the spells for other classes don't really save you in these situations, either

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that's an opinion, some people agree, some people disagree, but changing early game mage is definitely not top priority; game-breaking exploits/items or like soft-locks in quests are more important

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adding this stuff

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ok hopefully I added that
hopefully the ct sees what creature really means in terms of buffing base dmg