World [ready For Ct] Early Game Mage Change Megathread

Preface:

• This would be my first post, and I'm not sure if anyone has suggested the same idea. Please tell me and I'll delete this (give link).
• The goal of this post is to suggest ideas to make give early game mage more variety.
• Please give suggestions, as this thread attempts to combine them. Also, please review other peoples' suggestions.
• I read https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/how-to-suggest.174609/ and https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/giving-feedback.166965/, and I think adding a new segment to the tutorial + adding more items is a suggestion, not feedback, but it is a bit hazy.
  
• This focuses on the early game, which is roughly level 1 to 25, where at level 21 mage starts to get more fun (you unlock your first damage spell and can focus on magic instead of poison heavy melee, among other things)
• Also sorry the formatting is messy b/c I'm new and wynn makes things invisible

• I think Wynn is very epic and I want lots of people to also know that. That's why I'm making this post.
• Thanks to everyone who told me how my ideas were bad in the constructive_feedback channel:
  FrozenEarth#7114,
  ronespresso#8200,
  cmosier#6272,
  Aequinoctiale#6185,
  ()#5322,
  blegar1#7026,
  nip_nop#4108,
  HVMetal#0023,
  Thief#9182,
  Shots#0384,
  DrX2345#2887

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Problems with early game mage:

#1: Early game mage doesn't have spell attacks. Compared to other classes, which do, this leads to less playstyle variety.

Playstyle types [WIP]:

• Support playstyles:
  • Healer (for massive quantities of health)
• Tanking playstyles:
  • Healer (for massive quantities of health)
• DPS playstyles:
  • Melee
    • Heavy
    • Poison
    • Fast
  • Spell
    • Spell Spam w/ mana regen
      
    • Spell Steal

#2: Early game mage is very biased towards poison melee and/or heavy melee. This means slow attack speed with high damage and gear that does poison damage, like Skeletal Legs, Haros's Oar, and Serpent's Kiss. I tried to prove this in my various, disorganized responses. I'll prove this here with math later. [WIP]

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Ultimate fix, combining that of below:

• Change heal spell to be more useful like how cmosier suggested and/or adding wands that decrease heal spell cost
  
• Give mages super fast and super slow weapons sooner (Zip#7026 + I think creature and samsam101 agree on this-ish? confusing)
  
• Either swapping heal & ice snake/unlocking them both at the same time (so mages can use attack spells sooner, as the name "mage" suggests a general spell user), or just keeping when you get spells the same (there's a debate, the ct can decide)
  
• Buff base damage of wands
  • Strikeflame says to buff it so it's around daggers
  • Creature says to not buff it too much but still buff it so fast raw melee is viable with like pairing and stuff. I think creature's smart and I agree with basically whatever they say at this point

^ That's a bit hard to read, but I'm sure the ct can understand it.



Potential solutions (multiple can be used at the same time, although some might not work together):

Buff base damage of wands (the normal and fast ones) significantly, but making such wands useless after players get meteor (Samsam101)

• Pros
  • Mages will have better damage in the early game, which is important because it saves time and makes fights less tedious.
  • Makes other melee playstyles viable (not just heavy melee poison)
• Cons
  • Doesn't make other playstyles such as spell spam or heal viable
  • Can be confusing
  • Samsam101 decided the next one's better I think

Buff base damage of wands to around the level of daggers, but also having greater attack speed. It's a bit complex, so you can scroll down. (strikeflame5356)

• Pros
  • Mages will have better damage in the early game, which is important because it saves time and makes fights less tedious.
  • Makes other melee playstyles viable (not just heavy melee poison)
  • Doesn't require having a massive meteor cost thing
• Cons
  • Doesn't do much for the spell/support categories
  • Makes mage "unbalanced", at least compared to assassin

Buff base damage of wands, but don't buff it to around the level of daggers; it's complex, but basically make fast raw melee viable (creature)

• Pros
  • Not unbalanced with assassin
  • When implemented, adds variety

• Cons

Swap when you get ice snake and heal (FrozenEarth & cmosier)

• Pros
  • Mages will have better damage in the early game, which is important because it saves time and makes fights less tedious.
  • Mages can now play a spell spam class
• Cons
  • It could have a negative effect on the number of mages who eventually specialize to become support healers - mages might see themselves as damage dealers or tanks, rather than support healers. See the discussion below.
    
  • Melee is still limited to heavy poison

Change heal spell to be more useful - read cmosier's post to see how (cmosier)

• Pros
  • Mages will have greater viability as support
• Cons
  • Melee is still limited to heavy poison, and spell spam isn't viable.

Give mages super fast/super slow weapons earlier on, to allow for super fast/super slow melee playstyles. (Zip#7026)

• Pros
  • Allows for more melee diversification

• Cons
  • If implemented by itself (probably won't be), doesn't address mages not being able to use combat spells and doesn't necessarily balance out heavy melee poison

Adding more early game wands that lower heal cost (moi, creature likes it, they suggest a prince of hearts wand lol)

• Pros
  • More support viability

• Cons

Unlocking both ice snake and heal at the same time. (moi)

• Pros
  • Allows for spell damage playstyles earlier on, while perhaps not significantly negatively affecting the number of late game support mage healers

• Cons
  • Breaks the standard

• Highlighted/used suggestions:
  • Samsam101:
  • FrozenEarth:
    
  • cmosier:
    
  • Samsam101 on why heal & ice snake shouldn't be swapped:
    
    • FrozenEarth's:
      
    • Ninja_VK's:
      
  • Zip#7026 in the constructive_feedback channel in the Wynncraft discord:
  • A different way of buffing early game mage wand melee
    • strikeflame5356:
      
  • creature:
    
  • Creature again:
    

  ​

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Edits & Additional Stuff

Note: This stuff is old, and lots of it doesn't make sense because of changes to this thread.

Tell me if I should delete this part



Thanks to "ocel0tgirl"for this part:
- By the way, heavy melee poison is good because instead of being a low damage low health class, you're now a glass cannon; at least you have something going for you
- The battle is an example, with the main purpose being that players have a greater chance of learning more about combat if they're interested.
- New mages have the freedom of choosing their gear, and the important thing is that less new mages quit because early game mage is too hard without the right knowledge and gear.
- Changing the meta to allow for more early game mage playstyles would be the ultimate fix. However, I'm not qualified nor dedicated enough to completely rework scores of items. Feel free to try and make your own thread!


Thanks to "Samsam101" for this part:
- "The slow attack speeds and IDs and stuff are a little much to explain to brand new players though and it ends up feeling forced." - Samsam101
- I'm not sure if the CT had that in mind when they made early game mage gear; it seems like there are two "fixes": 1) Attempt to teach new mages what to do, which, as you just said, feels like a big information dump or 2) Like the ocelot person said before, rework lots of items to make early game mage more intuitive and therefore easier.
- I'm not sure how good mage is for support in the early game, as I haven't tested it. This is speculation. I think that because early game mage heal is something you can only do maybe every 10 seconds or so, for okay health, it isn't the best for support. Of course, if a mage is carried through the hard parts in a party of like 3 people, then, like any other class, it's obviously viable.
- Many new mages are mostly alone, and should be able to hold their own; it's fine if they're weaker than other classes -- being a lone mage just has to not suck.

I'm suggesting ideas for #1 because #2 seems hard. However, you're welcome to try that!

Thanks to "Purple Pope I" for this part:

- NOTE: WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EARLY GAME, NOT LATE GAME. MAGE HEAL IS BROKEN IN THE LATE GAME BUT IT SUCKS IN THE EARLY GAME.
- It's really sad, but heavy melee poison, instead of a more tanky or support-oriented playstyle, is the meta. Normal attack speed could work, but it does significantly less damage as you can see if you test it.
- This is because heal costs like 8 mana and new mages don't have mana regen, and don't understand what the funny numbers mean

- How to fix this? Rework all or most of the early game mage gear and spells. niceflex can't do it, but you can.[/quote][/quote]

 

My opinion on this is that it's kind of trying to bias the player towards a certain playstyle, which seems a little odd to me.
Also, you can't really add a random battle, for only one class.

Honestly, if I were playing for the first time doing this tutorial, I wouldn't even notice the slow weapon and just go on to use whatever weapon I felt like.

 

yes very cool good ideas

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also join shy!

 

Thanks for the feedback!

It's definitely odd, yeah; that's because to my understanding if a mage doesn't do heavy melee poison it's not viable; it's limited to clicking with its wand and if it isn't doing heavy melee poison it isn't doing damage.
Some people might say that early game mage is tanky like late game mage because you can heal; the problem is that heal costs like 8 mana and you don't really have mana regen; since you can only use it about every 10 seconds or so and at the very start you're getting like four-shot by most mobs, early game mage isn't tanky, despite starting with heal spell. Read: Heavy melee poison is the meta, and you'll have a really bad time doing anything else. By the way, heavy melee poison is good because instead of being a low damage low health class, you're now a glass cannon; at least you have something going for you


I agree that the battle shouldn't be for just one class; it should be for all of them; however, I'm not smart enough nor do I have the patience to think of combat issues for early game for other classes (if there even are any significant ones, I'm not sure). The battle is an example, with the main purpose being that players have a greater chance of learning more about combat if they're interested.

well I can't stop you from doing that; I suggested making the starter wand slow and adding more slow wands so you have a better chance of ending up as a heavy melee poison, but if a new player wants to use a normal/fast attack speed, that's not necessarily bad. Early game mage is hard if you don't do it right, so I want new mages to know and have the items to do it right. They have the freedom of choosing their gear, and the important thing is that less new mages quit because early game mage is too hard without the right knowledge and gear.

Thanks again

________________________________

join shy

 

True, but I still feel like it's wrong to try to force a person into a certain playstyle, especially early game. Just because it's better doesn't mean you should be forced to do it.
Of course it's just a suggestion though, and this is just my opinion.

 

maybe you could make a threat talking about how wynncraft could make other early game mage playstyles more viable?

I briefly mentioned how changing the meta would be difficult, but maybe you could tackle it

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edited

 

I really think the tutorials need to mention the different playstyles more. Otherwise the player has no idea how to use the items they can find. heavy melee isn't really that obvious of a playstyle, and honestly doesn't sound viable until you understand the types of items you want to use.

 

My point exactly!!!

 

Mage is supposed to be a healer class which is why it starts with Heal, but its lack of a combat spell makes the class absolute garbage at fighting until it unlocks meteor spell.

The slow attack speeds and IDs and stuff are a little much to explain to brand new players though and it ends up feeling forced.

You're allowed to edit whenever you want until the thread is locked

Word of advice: People find it annoying when you plug your guild in random threads

 

I'm not sure if the CT had that in mind when they made early game mage gear; it seems like there are two "fixes": 1) Teach new mages what to do, which, as you just said, feels like a big information dump or 2) Like the ocelot person said before, rework lots of items to make early game mage more intuitive and therefore easier.

I'm suggesting ideas for #1 because #2 seems hard. However, you're welcome to try that!

 

join shy

 

Ummm Quick attack speed? Literally any other damaging way, heal is stupid useful and mage is support...

Introductions are not a place for Math in an RPG. You're playing a role not a computer

Teaching players that a certain play style for a class is the "good" or "right choice" is and always will be the worse idea ever. It will limit them in future: T-Stack, Spell Spam, Heavy Melee, Super Support, I will never Die MageTM, Teleport kill mage, Never hell only ice snake mage

There are about 10 ok ways to play mage and you can get to end game content sticking to these "sub classes" but pushing one of them on the player might mentally lock for them the other possibilities.

This all comes with time, a new player shouldn't be worried about "whats the meta" but "How can I have fun" and I remember my early days as mage back with VIP Town ; ' )

and nothing like this ever crossed my mind, if I died I tried to figure out why: Too much lvl difference, not enough damage, not enough heals, etc.

I get where your suggestion is coming from but I don't think it fits Wynncraft at all

 

I understand you're frustrated. If you scroll up in the #constructive_feedback channel, I also felt frustrated. We all felt frustrated. Early game mage sucks. It's not easy because there's only one meta, as I'll explain below.

I wish it was like this. I wish there wasn't a significant difference between going heavy melee and fast melee, and I wish mage had useful combat spells, other than teleport in the early game. I will explain this further down. This is a problem you can only fix by changing gear. I'm not able to, but you might be qualified to rework most or all early game mage items and spells to allow for more playstyles. Otherwise, new mages are stuck with a meta where they have no effective spells and have to resort to heavy melee and poison because it's better than normal or fast melee.

I can't do that, so I want the next best thing. You are able to do that, but I can't.


Why the frick is this idiot claiming that heal, which is broken in the late game, is so bad? Ideally, heal would be something a mage could cast maybe every like 3 seconds or so, so nearly whenever they want. However, this isn't the case in the early game. When heal costs 8 mana and new players don't understand nor have access to good mana regen (read: heal expensive in the early game, no mana regen and mana regen is confuse), heal is irrelevant. Try it yourself.

Why the frick should we tell players to play one playstyle? We shouldn't, if early game mage was like other classes. I understand that you're frustrated, but it's the truth. Without a good mage heal, early game mage can't support. Without a good mage heal or high health from good gear and stuff, early game mage isn't tanky. Without heavy melee poison, early game mage doesn't do damage.

We can either 1) Teach new mages what to do, which feels like a big information dump or 2) Like the ocelot person said before, rework lots of items to make early game mage more intuitive and therefore easier.

You seem to really care about this issue, maybe even more than I. If you really care about early game mage having more playstyles, then fix most or all of the early game mage gear and spells. Without balancing, the meta will stay the same.

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I changed the stupid poll because sorry it's cringe, it's my first post

 

I can barely tell what you're trying to say here but I think you're trying to say that heal is a bad spell?
It's the mage class's only saving grace and without the Heal spell nobody would accept mages into raid parties and stuff
Instead, the mage class is a fan-favourite and one of the most highly recommended classes for new players

 

It's broken in the late game but sucks in the early game, try it yourself

Also nice thread ( talking about this one https://forums.wynncraft.com/thread...ng-dern-without-ruining-the-item-meta.290413/), I don't see any immediate problems (other than the wynn team accidentally creating a dupe, which isn't really a problem b/c it'll just get solved) and I hope it gets added

Please respond if you have any more questions, I like feedback.

 

I would also like to mention that forcing players to use a specific playstyle is stupid and is not the way to buff early game mage, instead the way to do it is to make all early mage weapons do a ton of damage but have a +9999999 3rd spell cost so that nobody will use them once they unlock meteor

personally i think that early game mage should stay the same because it starts off being very weak but ends being arguably the best class in the game

Plus the whole point of mage not doing much damage at the start is to encourage teamwork with other players which is something Wynn really wants to add more of as evident from raids, party finders and new guild additions

I main the mage class and can say that it's perfectly fine and balanced.

It sucks in the early game to encourage you to make allies and heal them while they do damage, thus teaching mage players that they are the healer class

It's great in the late game because it needs to defend itself by that stage and so that it can stay alive for as long as possible. Meteor and ice snake are awful damage spells compared to those belonging to other classes, thus resulting in Mage having terrible DPS but great healing capability

Some of my raids would have ended in failure if it weren't for Mage's power, and it was never too overpowered. Not even KoH is that bad since that can be used to insta-heal teammates who are super low on health.

 

I played mage on my first(and only) playthrough, and I didn't really have ant trouble in the early game. Even if it is less powerful, none of the early game content is challenging enough for this to be a problem.

 

I maintain that as of right now, heal isn't viable in the early game. I also maintain that the early game meta for mage is melee, not spells. Specifically, heavy poison melee.

You're proposing changes to the gear system, and I like that. As I've said earlier, that's the other possible solution, albiet the harder solution. These changes seem good at first glance. This thread is for discussing how to make meta gear and playstyles more available to new mages. I think you should make a thread where you discuss these gear changes in detail.


I'm not sure how good mage is for support in the early game, as I haven't tested it. I don't think you did either, of course - we can only speculate. I think that because early game mage heal is something you can only do maybe every 10 seconds or so, for okay health, it isn't the best for support. Of course, if a mage is carried through the hard parts in a party of like 3 people, then, like any other class, it's obviously viable. Many new mages are mostly alone, and should be able to hold their own; it's fine if they're weaker than other classes -- being a lone mage just has to not suck.

I understand that in the late game mage is cracked. I'm not criticizing late game mage, I'm criticizing early game mage. Please keep criticism relevant.

Sir_Doomed I think it's different now.

Oh, and as always, thx for the feedback <3

 

But does it really matter tho? Early game mage sure there’s a “best” way to play, heavy poison melee. But just cause it’s the “best” doesn’t mean u have to do it. U do very little dmg early game, but it’s early game. Nothing is hard enough to make a difference. Sure u can try to get the most dmg possible and go heavy poison melee or whatever but even if u use some random at lvl fast attack wand, u can still beat the early game content easy.

tl;dr
Yeah. Early game mage only melee is good and heal has a huge cool down, that’s true. Heavy poison melee is the “best” way to go for dmg, but just normal melee is fine enough to carry u through the early game.

 

good point. yeah, that works like above. heal sucks lol. imo it's much harder tho and so imo I think more people should use heavy poison melee in the early game

the problem is that it is a bit niche and I want it to be more mainstream

thanks

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PS: people can use what they want yeah i just want heavy poison melee to be known more

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i cri because mage is such a common class but so hard for new playhers