Game Design Raids: My Thoughts From Someone Who Hasn't Played Wynncraft In A While

(does anyone even read the forums anymore)

disclaimer: i actually haven't tried any of the raids myself so i can't really say much from a build/damage/health/rewards balance standpoint but this is what i can infer from watching full playthroughs of the new raids

so, when raids got announced for wynncraft, i was really interested to see how they would turn out, as someone who's sunk 1000 combined hours into destiny 2 and ffxiv lately
i thought it was going to be the thing that brought me back to wynn, but god all i can say (bluntly) is that i'm a bit disappointed with them mechanically

this is also partially a rant about the death system in wynncraft because most of this feedback won't ever be implemented in some way if the death system/soul points aren't changed at some point

exhibit a: "this game is for literal children"
when i saw the preview website for 1.20, something caught my eye


>instructions

no, this isn't how you game design

good game design does NOT need to explicitly state "how do x" for you, especially in endgame content like what raids were marketed as
generally game design should be teaching you a mechanic through good telegraphs/hints, and not spelled out to you (literally) with words
it just feels dumbed down for no reason, and the justification that "children play this game" doesn't really make sense either

(quoting pepo from wynn discord)

if this game is for children, why is the item system as complex as it is? i haven't seen anything like it in other MMOs i've played
if this game is for children, why are there quests with disturbing themes and (cartoony) violence?
like, it doesn't make sense + generally, if you design something well for your smartest players and highest denominator of player skill, it'll still probably be understandable for your younger players

plus, this is endgame content?? right?? it's supposed to be hard, and require thinking/puzzle solving/dedication???

so here's an example that i wrote up (and posted to the wynncraft discord preivously) on how you can improve on teaching players your gimmick, without ever using any "instructions"

let's take this "insruction," from grootslang

(kill the minibosses on the lower area to raise platforms)

Spoiler: sure

you enter the raid. there's an intro room, and there's just a couple of beefy mobs. killing them makes the ground crumble for a few seconds, and then platforms rise up.

this already establishes the idea in players' minds "kill mob = platform raises"

second room is a parkour challenge, putting your knowledge to the test where one group kills mobs underneath to raise platforms for the other group (like in the screenshot on the 1.20 preview webpage), and further deepening the connection of "mob make platform," as well as showing how those mechanics can be used to the players' advantage.

then, you get to the first encounter, where you've gotta use everything you know to Kill the Guy. boss probably does an unavoidable room-wide attack, but the same mobs as before spawn before he attacks, and you figure out you can kill the mobs and ride the platform up to avoid the attack entirely.
later on the boss does a half-room cleave on one side, and then both attacks are mixed up simultaneously so you end up having to lure the mobs to the safe side to kill them and get a safe platform away from both attacks

essentially, you let players interact with the environment around them, and let them see how the environment responds back, and if you guide the player in the right direction, they should be able to use that new knowledge to resolve your mechanics

was there any sort of sign telling players "kill mob = platform go up" in my example? nah - the players were able to learn for themselves through observation and careful game design, and it feels infinitely more satisfying to figure something like that out
THIS is the sort of mechanical design that i would expect from an endgame activity like this
destiny 2 does it, ffxiv does it (to an extent), so why can't wynncraft?

so please stop explaining things in words, and let players figure out stuff for themselves

exhibit b: "what the hell is a mechanic"
now, from what i've seen from the boss fights in the canyon raid and grootslang, the amount of mechanics that need to be performed in-fight are pretty much next to nothing lmao

there is a singular dps check in tcc, a puzzle at the very end of tcc, and a bunch of random ground attacks in grootslang

frankly, a lot of this is just missed potential in terms of what you could let players do during boss fights
(especially the puzzle since that's pretty much isolated from the actual DPSing of the fight)

none of these mechanics particularly require acquired knowledge from trial and error, engagement, or brainpower (outside of the puzzle?? maybe)
it's kinda just "dodge random attack while smacking a giant damage sink"

why couldn't the "random challenges" be incorporated into the boss fights themselves? the extremely unthematic "tile room" in tcc could have been incorporated into a boss fight

like, here's an idea:

Spoiler: wead

colored tiles (in an organized pattern) are on the floor, and the boss telegraphs with a cast or on its body the color you need to stand on to not die, but also the boss does ground AoE attacks/room cleaves to limit the amount of safe tiles. if you really wanted to be mean you could even have ground AoEs on each player so nobody can share the same tile
doesn't that sound way more engaging than just, smacking the boss until it dies? now you get to smack the boss until it dies but you still need to devote a few extra brain cells to not dying to AVOIDABLE attacks

here's another idea: in grootslang, there are slime puddles that drop from killing the extra mobs (adds), right? (unless i saw that mechanic wrong)
that entire fight is just smacking the boss and killing adds while trying to not die to a hole under your feet, so here's an example of a mechanic that could be added

Spoiler: gaming

one of the boss' attacks is a room-wide knockback to the edges of the arena called "wash away," which will pretty much instantly kill you from falling off the arena
however, killing adds will drop slime puddles, which when you stand in them, gives you a debuff that slows your movement speed (and maybe attack speed) but makes you more resistant to knocbacks
the fight then becomes a game of playing chicken with the slime puddles to optimize DPS output (since standing in them would lower attack speed), baiting adds in strategic positions to drop puddles, and you've gotta do this while attacking the boss

(side note: i do appreciate how some of the ground attacks are telegraphed by a mob called "Upcoming Attack," although it would probably be better if it was named something more thematic. can you guys keep doing that for other attacks thanks)

so like, if the bosses are just gonna be giant damage sinks, then why not make the damage sinking engaging at least??
this is just scratching the surface of what you can do with weird and wacky mechanics

exhibit c:
"your honor, <funny word>"
"death"

the death system in wynncraft is HILARIOUSLY outdated, especially for the types of content wynncraft is branching out into
relying on soul points, semi-permadeath, and no revives is not really going to help the game develop in depth and complexity, it's just a burden on the player (and encourages them to stop playing the game) if anything

if wynncraft wants to take a piece of my feedback here, they've gotta start by reworking death
everyone dying should NOT immediately end the raid. period.
second chances need to be given, by restarting whatever encounter the players were on previously
otherwise, players are going to be frustrated if they can't figure out an optimal strategy for a boss or mechanic, causing a wipe and having to restart the entire raid

i bet you that the reason "instructions" were implemented in the first place is because trial and error/progression doesn't exist in a death system like wynncraft's, and it's seriously holding back the potential depth this game could go

if you wanted to go even further, add battle raises in raids - although it needs to have some sort of risk associated with it (like a lengthy cast time, or limited number of revives, weakness after being raised, or all three)
that way, dying doesn't feel like you just can't play the game anymore - it's way too punishing right now

exhibit d: random stream of consciousness
- random challenges are a questionable game design decision on its own. having a significant element of randomness could make someone's raid clear a lot easier than someone else's, and removing any sort of consistency devalues strategizing, speedrunning, and optimization. like, sure, it increases replayability, but isn't strategy and optimization (WITH ENGAGING RAID MECHANICS) and speedrunning part of replayability anyways?

- raids feel more like a roguelike if anything
random rooms: check
upgrades between encounters: check (personally i don't have an issue with this but ehhh)
permadeath: check

i'd prefer raids to go towards the more traditional MMO style of raids where trial and error is possible (with a reworked death system), and consistent room/encounter layouts

- if multiple difficulties for raids will ever be added, PLEASE do not make an "easy" mode, rather, the normal mode should be the intended experience and there should be a harder mode with new/more involved mechanics, tighter DPS checks, and less raid buffs to challenge the most hardcore of players. like, seriously, wynncraft players are nuts sometimes

- stop making unavoidable attacks one shot you please, this isn't ffxiv where damage mitigation exists
if anything the only things that should be able to one shot you are mechanics that you fail
making unavoidable attacks one shot the tankiest of builds just reduces the variety in buildcrafting that you can take into raids

- more health on an enemy =/= harder content

- scaling, and consistency of gimmicks: what i mentioned above with my theoretical grootslang platforms mechanic is an example of scaling, or progressively making mechanics more involved/harder as the raid progresses. this is good game design, and there should be one or two central gimmicks that a raid revolves around and explores to their fullest potential (which is also why i included using platforms to players' advantage during combat - it's taking what you learned, and applying your knowledge in a higher pressure situation)

- you guys can animate giant block-based bosses!! use that to your advantage when telegraphing attacks

- "showing, not telling" is not a design philosophy exclusive to raids, it should be applied to other activities and the rest of the world

- when i say "don't use instructions" tbh general objectives are fine. like, "get to the other side" or "defeat the boss." just don't say exactly how to "get to the other side" or "defeat the boss" - that's for the players to discover

- please do not make the argument that "this is minecraft!! we can't implement this" [1] [2]
(not my ideal examples since they still explicitly explain things to you, but still a step up from what i've seen in raids)

ANYWAYS this thread has gone on too long

tldr make mechanics require more thought and engagement, incorporate mechanics from "random rooms" (without the randomness) into the bosses themselves, rework death to not be stupidly punishing

(also i'm genuinely wondering how many wynncraft GMs/devs have played a popular MMO like wow/eso/ffxiv/d2/gw2 before, and done raids in them)

 

Ironically, even with explicit instructions, raids are still incredibly confusing.

 

this is probably just a result of poor game design and telegraphs then

 

(mainly talking about the tcc raid btw, ran it like 60 times between beta and live)

Exhibit A: i personally think its fine to have instructions, but the way theyre implemented now is incredibly confusing. if the CT wants them to be helpful, they should really be placed into the preparation rooms in order for people to, yknow, prepare. in like every room of TCC, you literally cannot read the instructions without being swarmed by mobs and dying, which would be incredibly frustrating to players who are going in blind for the first time. however it would be nice, as you mentioned later on, if they did more showing than telling.

Exhibit B: grootslang is def an iffy raid. i really wish they just designed it for endgame as well, as most players arent gonna do it at level, and its not like the game is lacking content at lvl 60-70 when you would actually be doing it. Plus when you reach endgame its nice to have different things to do.

Also it seems boss challenges were a thing at one point, as the stairs room:


existed as part of the tcc boss, however it got scrapped for being too annoying, which is definitely for the best, but it would be a really funny way to punish camping on the back platforms.

Exhibit C: agreed, wynns death system is annoying. Second chances are actually given, but only for the third challenge rooms. The lava room gives you 4 chances to miss pouring the water, and the golem room technically gives you a second chance, but iirc it just soft locks you at the current moment if you die in it. (that soft lock existed from the moment it got released on beta if you were wondering) They tried to solve the death issue by making it so you dont lose SP on your first death, but even then its not really enough with how difficult it'll be for most players.

making the second chances universal for the challenges/bosses would be nice, especially how poorly your death can be telegraphed to you currently.

Exhibit D: i would say i agree with most of this, though i would think the limitations between what nova was doing and wynn would be different. since the size of the servers and whatnot. (running a sever for much fewer players would make it easier to do more crazy stuff, i'd presume)


Also just to clarify: the raid is a lotta fun and its my fav bit of combat content in wynn rn. I wish it got the extra polish it needed before going to live tho, and thats not the fault of the CT.

 

lmao to me this isn't really what i'm aiming for in terms of "challenges," agreed that this is really obnoxious
i'm thinking more along the lines of the teamwork-based or mechanical heavy challenges (tcc "stand and defend 3 platforms" is one that i feel like could be fleshed out a bit to be more engaging, and potentially implemented in a boss in some way)

 

oh yeah def, i just wanted to mention that something similar was seemingly originally planned

 

Raid rooms are random, you could as well get a parkour first, then something completely different and then another completely different room
imo instructions are fine because there is a time limit, if you don't finish a room in time you fail the raid

 

i know they're random, lmao
that was one of my points, that raid room randomness shouldn't be a thing

also time limits are kind of icky, imo, it feels like more of an unnecessary road block for people
i don't really see how time limits justify explicit instructions (instead of clever uses of mechanics to teach)

 

im assuming the time limit exists so people cant like, just camp the raid afk or something and clog up a world.

 

My 2 cents on tcc: I feel like the boss definitely lack engaging mechanics. It's a literal dps dummy by any other mmo's standards, and there is a lot of room for mechanics to be added. It could be as simple as expanding the red tile mechanic to happen every so often, adding wretch type mobs in the back, or even a necromancer minon style mechanic where if you don't deal with the peridots and they start swarming they could all die to heal the colossus. Environment comes into play a lot here since we're fighting on platforms, and I think it wasn't utilized to its full potential. Every phase the platforms could randomize(could be extremely annoying) or some tiles could bear minibosses that protect the boss from damage, or tiles could be bombarded with set upcoming attacks, forcing people to move around (like in the last phase).

And if CT were to add extra mechanics, that would be a lot of instakill potential, which to be honest, is never quite fun unless it's quite telegraphed like the red tiles. You're a dps and you just accidentally walk up to a trash mob and die instantly and be like "oh BOY time to spend the ENTIRE boss fight dead. yippee!" (me when i ran into a stone construct and died instantly). I feel like damage should be capped to a % of the player's max health, so you never get one shot unless you get comboed or are always low or something. For example, 70% of your max health plus base damage could be the damage cap, and any damage further than that could be soft capped (diminishing returns) or hard capped. This would not be a % of your current health so being low health means you never die or anything, and the base damage would make sure that you can't go full glass and tank everything with a pocket mage.

I do like the random rooms though (except for the unstoppable mobs in that annoying 3rd room), as you never know what you're going to get. I just feel like there should be more variation in the rooms given.

The rewards, ngl, are pretty bad. The main loot here are mastery tomes, but they will not be useful at some point due to you capping out on tomes. What would be the incentive to do raids then? A chance to roll at t100 t3 materials and a fabled necklace? The loot is a little disappointing, and I think one way to fix that is to add base drops (this applies to the forgery chest too). One way I think would be best is that the player is guaranteed a roll on 1-2 unid legendaries, with chances to get fableds and mythics. Because even though you may get nothing else, at least you'll get some legendaries for completing the raid. (Horse drops are interesting too).

I really thought raids would be another way to make money, because not everyone is up for lootrunning day and night to get mythics or grinding professions for materials. It would've completed the trinity of money making methods: skilling, bossing or high end pvm, exploring ( i guess, what is lootrunning??!!? [wynncraft equivalent of runescape clue scrolls?]). Digressing from the topic at hand, I really think the CT can make dungeons and Legendary Island into a money making method to fill the hole of money making from bossing as well. The forgery chest was a good step in that direction, but it could do with base drops or at least a way to turn dungeon tokens into money.

But yea those are just my 2 cents

 

definitely a good point, which is also why i mentioned that instakills should be limited to avoidable attacks only (e.g. dodgeable mechanics), not autoattacks from adds or the boss itself
and doing damage based on max health is a good idea, there could be a mechanic where failing it takes away 70% of your health and then unavoidable raid-wide damage comes out afterwards so there's still a chance to live if you're fast enough to heal up

 

bump

also i saw a video of the orphion raid, it's definitely an improvement over the currently existing raids imo
build design is SOOOO fuckin good, i love it

generally all of the other critiques in the original thread apply here too (especially the thing about instructions!!!!!)
for the final boss, i like the way the "death zone" is telegraphed on the ground (by changing the blocks on the floor), that should be the standard for telegraphing attacks from now on imo

one particular idea i had for this room

(if image doesn't load: the one where one guy picks up the "darkness crystal" and then steps on the "light crystals")

was that, instead of just one guy holding the crystal and then you having to escort them to spots, it was more of a teamwork-based survival challenge

my idea:
- picking up the darkness crystal begins the encounter, and monsters will start spawning (and naturally aggro towards the guy holding the darkness crystal
- holding the darkness crystal slowly gives you a continually stacking debuff (like something edgy called "condensing darkness" or idk LOL), getting too many stacks will instantly kill you
- when not holding the darkness crystal, you gradually lose stacks of the debuff (slower than you get them)
- if the darkness crystal is on the ground for too long, everyone fucking explodes and dies
- instead of just a small room that sometimes launches you up to another small room, the room is a giant hallway with a giant door at the end

Spoiler: deeeetails

phase 1 (an actual escort):
it's basically a game of hot potato with the darkness crystal, while running to the end of the room and not getting owned by the mobs
you'll need the darkness crystal at the end of the room so it's important that you don't leave it behind (and if you do you're gonna wipe anyways)

to clarify the "hot potato" thing, since the crystal is gonna give you the stacking debuff ("condensing darkness"), you just keep passing it in a circle between each other so by the time it comes back to you again, your debuff stacks will be gone
this is probably more teamwork based than what's currently in the game (one guy holding the darkness crystal and then everyone else protecting them), since you have to communicate and plan out who's passing to who, and when

phase 2 (unlock the door):
when you get to the door, mobs will stop aggroing on the guy with the crystal and instead aggro on everyone evenly
(this is so that the guy with the crystal can't just camp on a ledge or something and not worry about mobs)

you still gotta play hot potato with the crystal tho

around the door are a bunch of pillars, and periodically, one light crystal will spawn on one of them - the guy with the darkness crystal has to parkour up to one of the light crystals and cleanse it
if the light crystal is there too long (probably 30-45 seconds at most) then it'll explode and add a stack of some other edgy debuff like "overwhelming light" that doesn't go away
getting 2 stacks of "overwhelming light" (aka failing to cleanse 2 light crystals) will instantly kill you and pretty much wipe the raid

once you successfully cleanse 5 light crystals and not get owned by mobs or get owned by failing the mechanics, the door opens and congration! you done encounter

but yeah that's about it, orphion should kinda be the standard for future raids (and honestly i think the standard should still be higher, the final boss has exactly 2 mechanics - player jails and the "dont step on this quadrant of the arena" thing)

 

Actually people prefer to do it at level since it exists, the only issue is the game gives 2 separate ideas. There's a level cap which means at level players have to do it so they get an easier time finding a party.
But they die stupidly easy since the raid is made for endgame players, due to the at level guys not having enough health. NOTG tbh just needs clear instructions on what level you should actually be. Because right now it's punishing players at average levels for playing but making it impossible for endgame players to play without bringing someone at a lower level. I would genuinely say notg needs a nerf if they plan on keeping it this way since the fights are just absurdly difficult for the level you unlock it at.
(to give you guys an idea, the first room is rng on whether you have a semi easy time, or you get dragonflies that can KO the players VERY quickly)
Personal opinion but raids should be made for groups of the levels you unlock it at.

E.g NOTG should be made for a group of level 60's to try the raid, they'll find it difficult but not "bring an endgame player to have a chance" difficult.
Giving the player access to a raid long before they can probably do it, honestly doesn't seem to be the best idea in my personal opinion there.
Orphions case you can do the raid with less players but at higher levels. Or more players at lower levels which is fine.
And TCC you can't do the raid till the 90s which is fair. Because it's difficult but at the right difficult.

NOTG is the exception where you either get carried by an endgame player through it, or wait until you do the carrying.

 

generally i also feel like some sort of "level sync" should be added for players that have characters at high levels to do the raid and experience lower level content, although this is really difficult with the amount of complexity wynncraft's build and stat system has (compared to something like FFXIV where stats are pretty straightforward and linear)

 

Corrupted dungeons currently have that with bosses where depending on your level the strength of the boss changes.
But yeah rn there probably should be a way to make the raids harder depending on you party's combined level