Game Mechanics Skill Point Perks [1764+ Supporters] [salted Likes It]

I mean technically you already can but they are entirely based on armor and not on stats, which makes it kinda weak.

 

Do rainbow builds also get the perks of the other 5 elements? Love the idea, but rainbow buffs seem a little too good seeing as most end game builds invest in more than just 2 elements :/ Love the idea btw, you did a fantastic job!

 

Well at best, each player could only get the first two of each as it only counts -INVESTED- skill points and not skill points gained from wearing items.

 

You would still be able to get +15% in every element, plus +10% base for both melee and magic, plus a bunch of other passive buffs. I could see this being fine if the current SP buffs were removed, but I think having specific rainbow buffs is a little too good. For example, a tri-element a morph stardust build with prism would only be a few SP away (at most 20 SP, which is a lot, but considering the buff it gives...) from getting 10% overall buff. Also, the rainbow buffs come from the separate categories anyways, so it's a bit redundant to have a whole section just for it. Again, I love the idea, I'm just not too fond of the separate category for a set of builds that really don't need any more buffing.

Edit: I think you get 200SP at 101, so you could realistically get level 3 in each, run 2 Prisms, Prowess, some sort of necklace (maybe a wynn D one) Morph Stardust, Boreal-Patterned Aegis, Vaward, Memento and a hive weapon with powders, and you'll literally be unstoppable with all the buffs.

 

Rainbow Builds don't get the buffs of the five elements if their levels are reached. Once you have over three perks at once, they disappear; meaning that Tri-Element builds can still exist, but quad and rainbow builds don't benefit from the main skill point perks. The Rainbow perks are a completely seperate set, made to sort of discourage investing in all elements at once, but still giving some benefit.

 

But that doesn't make sense. You shouldn't give a perk to something you want to discourage...

 

I know, but it seems kind of unfair to the people who will inevitably invest their skill points evenly for a rainbow build. They still gain some benefit from it, just not as much as you would investing in smaller element sets.

 

Right, but the problem lies in the fact that if anything, the rainbow category should be negatives to encourage the use of the other perks. Dual element builds will always have the problem of weak elemental defenses, and a low offensive power against half the mobs in the game. Buffing those builds to make them viable is fine, but if you give the same buff to rainbow builds, it defeats the purpose. You mentioned it being unfair to the rainbow players, but that should be the point; to punish builds that work based on SP based invincibility.

 

That just seems kind of cruel, especially when they're meant to be perks. Each element has a unique theme and perks to make it stand out from the others and buff the players using it - Earth has poison and thorns, Water has Spell Damage and Reflection etc. Rainbow just has a small damage and defence buff to all the elements; nothing you can't already obtain. As well as this, you can obtain the first perk of any skill at level 8 if you invest all your skill points. However, you can only obtain the first perk of Rainbow at level 50 - The same level you can obtain the last perk of any skill by investing all your skill points. Furthermore, 101 is required to obtain the last Rainbow perk.

 

Fine, but the perk for 101 is "+10% Damage (Every Element), +20 Defence (Every Element), +15% Melee Damage, +15% Spell Damage." That's insane when you consider that that's in addition to the best builds in the game. Those buffs are basically broken at that point. With 20 elemental defense, you could wear blue mask instead of morph stardust and get over twice as much SP without giving up anything. You also mentioned needing level 50 as a minimum, but the mid game isn't where the problems show. The problem is with the late game when you have access to morph stardust, prisms and the top tier weapons.

My point is this: Buffs should make non-viable builds in the current meta good enough to work. I (as well as many others) don't like nerfs, so the solution is to buff other stuff. Your idea covers this with the 5 elements really well, but when you buff the best stuff too, it only pushes the meta in the wrong direction, cause the best stuff is only getting better.

 

Rainbow builds have their advantages and disadvantages, just like all other elemental builds. They have no weaknesses, this is true... but they also don't have any strengths. A team of 5 rainbow players wouldn't do as well as a team with 5 players that each specialize in one element. While all players would have advantage against an element, they usually deal similar damage that has a disadvantage. Overall the advantage and disadvantage evens out. While you may be right on the rainbow perks being too specialized in all elements, I think rainbow perks should exist in this system.

You also need to keep in mind that 5% extra thunder damage will benefit the full damage of a thunder build whereas a rainbow build will only get a small buff from the same 5% because only a portion of their damage output is thunder damage.

For example, if a rainbow build does equal damage for all 5 elements, +5% elemental damage for all elements will only buff total damage by 5%. Because 20% of the damage output is affected by each elemental buff (20% + 5% == 21%, there are 5 elements so 21% x 5 == 105%)

Perhaps as an alternative you could do this:

10 points: Colourful: Pretty colors! +5% damage in every element
20 points: Prismatic Illusion: You feel more in tune with the elements, +10 defence in every element
30 points: Raining Star: You understand the elements, +10% damage in every element
40 points: Jack of all Trades: You have command of all elements, +2 skill point in every element

Of course I don't understand the meta or the value of each perk, so take this with a grain of salt. But these perks are overall more player friendly (in terms of actually unlocking) and much more neutral than spell damage and movement speed and the like.

 

I completely disagree with you in saying that they have no strengths. Their strength is that they have no weaknesses. With my current rainbow build, I can basically solo LI (I'm the reason why I can't, not the build) and I take absolutely no damage from any regular monsters except the ones near Amsord, which still do basically nothing. My point is, with a buff to rainbow, my current class would be invincible. If you want people to stop using rainbow builds, it makes sense to buff dual stat builds. What doesn't make sense it to also buff the most broken builds in the game.

Also, even if you don't see rainbow builds as being too good, the rainbow buffs just don't make sense. By having your SP assigned in evenly in all 5 elements, you essentially get a rainbow buff anyways, so I see no reason for it to exist in the first place.

 

That may be so - but any agility or defense build gets just about the same perks. What rainbow builds get in defense, they are not so strong offensively. You may be right about the rainbow perks being too much and/or making little sense, but having a bit of everything is definitely not a perk.

You know, when thinking about it, the percent decay you get when putting multiple skill points in the same stat is probably part of why rainbow builds are so strong. If rainbow builds have 40 points in 5 stats, they are getting an average of 0.83% in some stat per skill point. compared to 100 in one stat, which gives them an average 0.65% in a stat. Because of the way the percentage scales, the player does get more raw power from skill points. So I suppose in that regard you are correct. What do you think of the idea I suggested to give weaker, more generic perks to rainbow builds?

Honestly, if rainbow builds really are OP, it's inherently caused by the way gain from skill points scales. The best way to discourage rainbow builds would be to lower the scaling so that lower points gain less than before and higher ones gain a bit more than before.

 

Right, which is why in reworking SP you should remove the scaling, ie; Not having a scaling rainbow perks.

 

Like a simple +5% damage in all elements and then +10 defense in all elements, and then +5% more damage in all elements?

 

If you buff everything, then you may as well not buff anything. Also, what you're advocating for is a buff for rainbow builds. That's insane.

 

Asking around discord, rainbow builds are considered equal in power to dual element builds. Equipment is much more powerful when specialized. Don't assume that your bias is factual.

 

How can you not see the irony in saying "Equipment is more powerful when specialized" right after saying "considered equal in power?" The strength of builds obviously depends on what you're doing, but if you're warring or trying to solo LI or the Qira, a rainbow build is going to be far superior to any dual element build.

Also, you need to specify the question you asked to the Discord and show how you came to your conclusion or else it's considered bad polling. If you can't show how the data was collected, it makes any arguments made from the data moot points.

 

How? Simple logic.
Rainbow builds have more gain from skill points.
Specialized builds have stronger equipment.
Both are stronger in one category than the other. What specialized builds gain from better equipment, rainbow builds gain from skill points and versatility.

I literally asked "Are rainbow builds stronger than dual-element builds?" and a bunch of people said "sometimes" which means not always which means they are about equal. They agree that rainbow builds don't have many weaknesses, but they also said that a properly built dual-element build is generally stronger.

 

The conclusion you came to doesn't make any sense. If they're sometimes better, then they are not at all equal. Your line of reasoning is flawed because you're basing utility on strength alone. We already agreed that dual builds have their place, but when fighting every end game boss, dual element builds suffer from their lack of utility. A good rainbow build will always be more useful against the Qira and LI, or in wars than a dual element build. IDK if you have an alt, but based on your linked account, you haven't really experienced enough of the end-game content to understand my point. At any point under 90, dual element builds are the best because there isn't any good rainbow gear, and most quests involve killing bosses with elemental weaknesses. Once people get access to the Qira hive shop and morph stardust, the way they make builds changes a lot.

I also just want to bring up my original argument for why I'm against this. If you were to take out the rainbow category and invest in the 5 elements equally, you would get similar perks in each element, which would total the same thing as the rainbow perks anyways. There's no point in making the system over complicated by introducing redundant features.