World Defense & Agility Rebalance(nets More Tankyness, Now Includes Elemental Defense),

I understand the poison and cactus changes, but I still don't really like the raw spell changes. I run a kinda Raw spell build, and I find it effective in PVE, but it is amazing in PVP. I like it as a skill cause it will allow you to do constant, predictable damage. I can even break tank mages spamming heal with it, it and really hurts the feel of the identification if you make it affected by your skills. It would no longer be a "Raw" trait, just another multiplier.

Before ANY of this is added however, we need a class spell rebalance

 

This is getting more and more confused, so these are the main points I got from debating with @Cosomos

1. What's the current situation?

• They first tried to develop damage-defense system in PvE, so the all weapon's damage is designed to fight the mobs, not against players.
• Mobs don't have Defense/Agility skills unlike players.
• Because of them used the PvE system directly to PvP without considering about how Defense/Agility skills play in, the defense system in PvP is somehow "fucked up."

• Mobs don't have a value which @Cosomos calls "Damage Reduction", that includes player's Defense/Agility skills, Class Base Defense, and Spell Defense Buffs (War Scream and Vanish).
• Mobs usually have higher HP than players, because they don't have the "Damage Reduction" unlike players.
• Players usually compensate the HP difference from mobs by having "Damage Reduction".

2. How Defense system works as of now

• Mobs don't have a value which I call "ID Boost" in my damage calculation thread, so it is technically set as "1".
• Defense Skill subtracts from the opponent's ID Boost, so if the opponent player had high ID Boost, the Defense Skill would hardly work.
• Defense Skill works fine for mobs, because they always have "1" ID Boost.
• Defense does not affect on the opponent player's "Raw type" damage, which includes Raw Spell/Melee, Poison, and Reflected damage (from Thorns/Reflection).
• Moreover, Defense Skill only works for Neutral Damage although it's written "Reduces every damage you take", so it can't stand with mobs/players with Elemental Damage.
• Agility will block all kind of damage by the chance.
• This will make Agility more useful than Defense, because Defense hardly works against players who have high ID Boost, and cannot block Raw type damage.
• Also, Agility skill wouldn't make sense if the opponent player was a Poison player and if they used multi-hitting spells like Multihit or Arrow Storm.
• Elemental Defense subtracts from the opponent's (Base Damage) x (ID Boost), which seems working pretty fine alone as it is right now.

3. So, what's the problem?

• Defense skill is almost as useless compared to Agility skill against players.
• High points in both Defense and Agility skill makes players almost immortal against mob's Neutral Damage, which reduces it to about 1/30 of the original.
• PvP needs to reconsider about "Damage Reduction", since it is the base of all of the player defense calculation.
• It is clear that Reflected damage should be split into Neutral and Elemental damage, but it is somehow only Neutral.

4. How would we fix it?

• First we need to fix that being op when we have high points in both Defense and Agility skills.

Damage Reduction Multiplier

A
-----------------
A+B+C+D-3

A=1/(1-Agility%), B=1/(1-Spell Defense Buff), C=1/(2-Class Defense), D=1/(1-Defense%)
​

• By having this value as Damage Reduction for players would fix them being op with multiple high defensive skills.
• This Damage Reduction should affect every kind of damage, Neutral, Elemental, Reflected, and Raw type damage.
• These would make the PvP almost similar to PvE situation, which resolves everything.
• Other small changes
  • Reflected damage should be split into Neutral and Elemental damage, and the Reflected damage should be the damage before the opponent's Damage Reduction plays in, meaning the attackers would have to defend themselves from their own attack.
  • Poison should not be activated with spells but only with melee, since players have multi-hitting spells, which makes Agi useless in some PvP situations.
  • When you dodge an attack, your health regen count will be suspended and restated.

5. Another problems by this fix?

• This will generally reduce a lot of damage taken from players to players, so some weapons, IDs (Poison, Raw Spell/Melee), or even Mage's heal might need adjusts.
• Raw Spell/Melee damage was somehow useful in PvP, because that was ignoring all the opponent's defense factors. This fix would fix that, so possibly making the Raw damage users cry.
• Making Poison does not activate from Spells does not make sense. Although they're getting hit, but they do not get poisoned by the opponent.

fuck, I tried to keep this short but I couldn't

 

RIP MOTOKI1
Febuary 21 2015 - Febuary 25 2017
---
Tried to make a short post​

 

This isn't really taking into account ID's and the other skill point categories. For example:
Defense gives Raw health, and Health regen (both % and raw) on the defensive side, while giving exploding, (some) life steal, and both melee AND spell damage on offensive fire items. In comparison, Agility tends to give mostly walk speed, and tends to lower either spell or melee damage, as well as giving lower health. Not only that, but defensive air items are pretty much nonexistent. (If I remember right, there are only two or three that exist). Not only that, but defensive fire items tend to have little real drawback other than water damage/defense, which, in the endgame, doesn't really affect you as none of the level 80+ content has water mobs, while offensive fire items tend to give more damage buffs than other offensive pieces, at the easily negatable expense of health regen. Also, never talk about PvP to make your point; PvP was never really the focus of wynn, and it's unlikely they'll really try to fix stuff on that unless it affects PvE to

 

ever sat in teamspeak with cannoners and listen to them speak is some random math language? it scares me

 

I would have it so your Strength and Dexterity would effect your raw damage too. So lets say you have 50% Strength and Dexterity, and the person you are hitting has 50% Defense and Agility. You would deal around x2 the damage and your opponent would only take 1/3 of that(with Agility and Defense), so you would deal 2/3 of your original damage against players and x2 the damage against mobs. I would say that is not the end of the world for Raw Damage.

________________________________

I am not sure how many times I have said this, but my version of a Heal nerf is to make the Grade III Heal, restore 30% of your current health upon casting and for each of the pulses. That would mean if you don't get hit during the 2 seconds the pulses are activating you would restore more then 100% of your current health because each pulse would heal you by 30% of your current health that would include what you healed before. However if you take damage when you are healing you would end up getting healed for less, but you have the advantage of not needing to spam Heal so you can Ice Snake and run.

 

I'm still not liking the raw spell change. It does not need to be changed, and once again:

Right now I think it is balanced, no reason to change it.

 

Uh, no.
I understand the Def/Agi should be affected on Raw types, since all the damage were designed to fit PvE. (Did you even read my replies .-.)
But if you make Raw damage affected also by Str/Dex, it would bring... the nightmare back. ._.
https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/gavel-patch-14-0-10.118668/
Do you know those days that some Raw Spell could do like 15k Neutral easily? We don't have to bring those days back.
I don't even know if it is right that spell multiplier affects the Raw Spell damage, if that was a glitch, this might be another story though.

 

I the worst offender of that was Pure, but it was insane at that time. But the nightmare was also caused by the Attack Speed Glitch, but they where fixed at different times. Any way you would do x2.6 more raw damage and then you would be effected by defenses. Currently Agility effects it so say the defender has 80% Defense and Agility, so you would go from x0.2(Current)->x0.111(my Defense System)->0.288(With Buff). So that would mean even with max defenses it would be buffed by a little less then +50%...??!!

I guess that is beyond balancing and it should only be effected by the defending players Damage Reduction Multiplier, and I will admit that should be the rule for poison too. Honestly the Strength and Dexterity suggestion was only to be used incase Poison and Raw damage where nerfed too much by my main thread and would not be needed. If you really think it goes against the feel of Poison and Raw Damage to have it be effected by Strength and Dexterity then I guess it is not necessary, and if they become really weak with my suggestion then they could just be buffed in the normal way.

So now that idea is settled Lets try to have a recap on what I still want:

-My Damage Reduction Multiplier be use after all damage has been calculated(after Elemental Defense, Spell/DPS/Powders, and Raw) and nothing is immune(Cactus, Poison, Elemental, Neutral, and Raw are all effected)
*Maybe Class Defense and War Scream/Vanish Damage Reductions do not need to count for certain types(specify which ones if you agree)

-Agility's dodge counting as being hit so Health regen will be stopped like it normally would
*Also Life and Mana Steal having the chance to activate even if the attack is dodged, if it does not already

-Cactus damage becomes dodgeable
*Also either will activate when you dodge and will use the damage inflicted before my Damage Reduction Multiplier, or will not activate with dodge and will use the damage inflicted after my Damage Reduction Multiplier

- Poison only being Transmitted on a Melee Attack that was not dodged (an optional balance choice).

Now what is left to discuss?

 

I have no god damn idea whats going on besides the fact that math is going down reaaaally hard.

Seriously though, it looks like you put in effort in making a viable suggestion, so I'll give you that +1

 

Well, to explain why I argued that Raw type damage shouldn't be affected by Str/Dex, think of PvE, not just only PvP. The mobs don't have Def/Agi skills.
Imagine a mage has 1250 Raw spell, and used Meteor, it would increase +5000 Neutral damage as of now. Then once the mage has x2.5 Neutral ID Boost, it would deal +12.5k Neutral in one hit. That's literally the same as before the 1.14.10.
ok anyway.

Yes, that's right, considering the difference between mobs and players.

Tbh, I completely forgot about this. :c
In the current PvP system, Class Def and Spell Def Boost do not affect for Ele. Damage, they act like the current Defense skill.
I don't know for PvE, and I don't fucking know their concept, so no idea on if we should do that.
From around here, we'll need to ask the CT...

Yea, agreed.

About this, I don't think it should try to activate, since they dodged the attack, it shouldn't do anything between the Attacker and the Defender. That's the point of Agility, so. Also considering that Life steal should cooperate with Def more than Agi, it should not activate.
Also I start to feel that it is ridiculous to have a "Raw" amount of Life Steal, so I would like to suggest Life Steal being "%" of the damage you dealt. That should make more sense. (And that actually could be another whole suggestion to grind likes)

Yes, the reflected damage should be treated the same as normal damage. It also should be split into Neutral and Elemental.

It should not activate when the Defender dodges the attack, because that's the point of Agility. The attacker and the defender is not meant to affect each other once the attack is dodged. Also, Agi and Thorns/Reflection should not be cooperated, so it should be somehow bad for the Defender to have Thorns/Reflection and Agi at the time.
I'll write my example one more time. (more exactly)
When an attacker deals 1000 damage 5 times to the Defender who have the Thorns/Reflection, I assume the Defender will reflect all the damage. The reflected damage does not get affected by Defender's Def stats. If the attacker had 80% Def, they would take 200x5 damage. If the attacker had 80% Agi, they would take 1000x1 damage.

Yes, this one is completely due to balancing, it still leaves the problem that it does not make sense Spell Damage does not activate the Poison while they're actually hitting.
I... don't think this can be helped, there are too many people (including you, @Tsukiyomi) abusing the Poison with multi-hitting spells.

So yea, that's pretty much about all the points we made here. Maybe can you sum them up well and edit the first post in this thread?

 

@Pokextreme @motoki1 @Cosomos

Here's my take on the matter:

Raw Damage
Raw Damage ought to not be reduced by defense or elemental defense. By nature, I believe its specialty should be Armor Penetration at the expense of not being buffed by percent ids.

Agility should dodge Raw Damage.

Poison
Agility should only have a chance to dodge the inflicting hit entirely or the just the infliction of poison. Essentially, you can dodge the actual hit or you can dodge the part of the blade imbued with poison.

Intelligence should reduce damage from Poison, due to its association with healing and cleansing. This makes its more viable in nether, while not making it more overpowered outside of it.

Defense should actually affect the chance of being poisoned when hit AND reduce the damage it deals. Essentially, sometimes a blade might not penetrate your defenses (armor + defensive skin) far enough to poison you. Additionally, you do have built up resiliences within your organs. In my view, defense also bolsters the immune system.

Elemental Defense
Simple really. Make Defense and Agility affect Elemental Damage as they do with Neutral Damage.

Cactus
Defense and Agility should perform their normal functions against the reflected attack or spell.

Game Balance
By making Defense more advantageous against poison and Agility more advantageous against raw damage, they are relatively equal (while being realistic).

 

Yes.

 

Okay, here is my reply.

As I wrote in many replies here, ANY damage should be affected by the "Damage Reduction". All the damage is designed to keep balance between players and mobs, they do not care about PvP as much as they do about PvE.
Raw type damage is of course not an exception. It is designed to keep balance in PvE, that's why they buffed Poison damage overall, and tweaked some for Raw Spell on 1.14.10.

Agility should dodge the entire 3 poison ticks, once they dodge the first attack that causes the poison to them. It should be simple... right?

I didn't have this kind of idea, I think you're good at thinking of realistic game problems. .-.
Currently, the poison system is working simple af, if they got hit, they'll take 3 tick poison damage, that's it. When @Cosomos and I's concept, that players compensate their HP loss compared to mobs by their Def/Agi, comes in, Defense would have to reduce ANY damage, just like Agi will dodge and immune to ANY damage in effect.
I actually thought that of your suggestion would be good in terms of making the game realistic, but finally in effect, your concept is same as saying that Def should dodge the attack like Agi do, so... sadly, I must say no.

Yes, when we accept our concept to the game, ANY damage should be affected by "Damage Reduction".
(that players compensate their HP loss compared to mobs by their Def/Agi)

I hope you already understand how Thorns/Reflection actually works as of now.. but they do NOT "block" the damage. You still takes to damage, but you will also reflect the damage to the attacker.
So that of your suggestion should not be needed.

Yes just like I summed up on earlier posts, reflected damage should act the same as other normal damage.

 

@Pokextreme @motoki1 @Gigavern
I changed the Specifications and Small Changes section and I added a section for good ideas I agree to disagree with

 

Yeah, thats how it ought to work. However sometimes, a person with agility should be able to maneuver such that even though they get hit by the blade, they don't get hit by the part of the blade imbued with poison (thus avoiding poison, but taking damage from an attack).

Its not really the same since in addition to this:

"You still take damage from the actual attack, but toxins will not be inflicted, due to not reaching areas vital for poisoning; you can't ever dodge the actual hit, but poison can be avoided.".

Each has another way of dealing with poison: Either entirely avoiding the attack for agility, or reducing its damage.

In my opinion, Raw Damage is "Armor Penetration"; it shouldn't be affected by defenses in exchange for no boosts from % ids. Besides, raw damage is very well balanced: it isn't broken in terms of killing opponents and it is used in only major 2 ways:

Raw SD Builds like

Whitecap Crown
Soul Signal/Millenium
Dark Channeler
Memento/Gaea-Hewn-Boots/(rarely Capricorn)
Finesse/Malachite x2
Nebulous
Antim/Willpower

Slider

OR

Cancer-Taurus like

Cancer
Taurus
Hephaestus-Forged Greaves
Disco/Morph Gold
Morph Emerald
Morph Topaz
Prowess/Morph Amethyst
Morph Ruby

Chakram

Those builds would do less damage than normal builds if they did not penetrate defenses. Thus, Raw Damage does not need a nerf (in my opinion) like this.

 

In my opinion Taurus needed a buff anyway, so this would just make that more necessary. Also Selvunt gave the impression that Cancer-Taurus should have never worked well together in the first place.

And at worse it would reduce Taurus' Effectiveness to a little more then 50%, so Taurus would need a base 2000 Raw Melee Damage to get a slight net buff at 80% Agility and Defense. I know that if I only factored in 80% Defense it would need a base of 5000 Raw Melee Damage, but I think using both at 80% would result in better balanced changes.

 

Uh... I don't get the idea of splitting your weapon (blade) to non-poison part and poison part. Can't it be just simple like, if you get hit, you will be poisoned by opponent's poisoned weapon?

Well, I liked your unique idea for Poison, but I don't think it will be needed for them, since Poison damage would be reduced by Damage Reduction of players. It might be another debating target for the CT if they liked it though.

Yea, I agree that Raw Spell is somehow well balanced in PvP.
To think about the advantage in the concept of Raw damage, it can deal a constant damage, unlike almost all the weapons have a big damage range.
In PvP, it ignores player's Defense skill and just adds the constant amount of damage as much as player has on Raw damage. (Also affected by Spell multipliers)
Considering that mobs don't have Defense skill unlike players, the coder might have just added the constant Neutral damage to the total damage, without thinking of the Neutral damage is affected by Defense in PvP.
Well this is completely my hypothesis, but this theory leads to create the possibility that Raw spell is not intended to penetrate player's Defense skills.
To back up this hypothesis, player's Defense skill calculation is fucked up in PvP. It is meant to reduce the Neutral damage (no idea for Ele.) you take, but when the opponent was a player, it hardly works. They did not really consider about PvP when they developed the defense system from the Gavel release.

For example, I have Hive Infused Bow with 400-600 Neutral damage. If I had 100 Str skill and 35% Spell, the Neutral ID Boost would be 2. When I have +1000 Raw SD added to these, I would deal +2500 Neutral damage added to every Bomb Arrow. As far as we can confirm, the concept of Raw damage includes to deal a constant damage. If I draw 500 Neutral damage when I cast Bomb Arrow, the Neutral damage would be 1845, the Raw damage is 2500 (constant), and the sum would be 4345 Neutral damage, which is decent for mobs, you could imagine fighting Qira with this. (Not sure if this example build is actually possible to make)
I personally think this is only intended for PvE, but not for PvP. It literally does not make sense in terms of realistic that Raw damage penetrates the Defense skill player has.
I hope Raw Spell/Melee damage is intended to help players to fight any mobs by a bit, by adding some constant damage to the total damage the player does. It was never meant to penetrate the Defense nor produce a Raw SD centered build.

Due to all of these, I would like to think that Raw damage should also be affected by player's Defense skill.

 

I believe I made a simplified version that should be easier to digest, do you think it is easier to read? @motoki1 @Pokextreme @Gigavern
0: Simplified Summary
The main point of this post is to make Agility and Defense have an equal effect on all types of damage you take. This also includes the Class Defense and the Vanish/War Scream damage reductions, and making them help reduce all types of damage too.

There are more specifications and minor changes(for the sake of this purpose) in Section 3

Spoiler: Explanations on how and why

Now the reason I made such a complicated formula is to stop Agility and Defense from snowballing into an immortal warrior that can take x39.0625 more damage then normal. That I believe would be too much and insane for someone to have that kind of damage reduction.

As we all know if you take 75% less damage that means you can take x4 more damage. Another way of saying that is saying you can take +300% more damage. What this formula does is add up these percentages of extra damage you can take and will reduce the incoming damage by that amount.

There is one type of exception to this because of how Agility works. In order to make Agility "behave", I had to have put Agility to the top of the fraction. I really won't go into confusing details, but the main thing to take away is that it still works like it does now and will still work with the other defenses in the way I want it to.

Spoiler: Example Table

This is a Small Example Table shows what results you will get in terms of how much more damage you can take with certain Agility and Defense percentages. Your Agility percentage is the left column of percentages and your Defense percentage is the top row of percentages.
Ignore the dots they are fillers for the space, if I used normal spaces then they would get deleted.

A\D 0% 50% 66% 75% 80% .
. 0%. x1 . x2 .. x3 .. x4 .. x5 . .
50%. x2 . x3 .. x4 .. x5 .. x6 . .
66%. x3 . x4 .. x5 .. x6 .. x7 . .
75%. x4 . x5 .. x6 .. x7 .. x8 . .
80%. x5 . x6 .. x7 .. x8 .. x9 . .
​

As you can see you will always be able to take more damage as your Agility and Defense increases, and it does not spiral out of control into being able to take x25 the damage. Also their is your Class Defense and defensive buffs from spells to factor in, but I left them out to avoid unnecessary confusion

 

I also believe that theory to be true, but on the other hand, I think it inevitably developed into something much more interesting. Something that was additionally balanced. That is why, despite it being unintentional, I think it ought to stay unaffected. But it is honestly is up to personal preference. It depends on a person's view of Raw Damage - as a small boost to help other damage OR a whole new type of damage.