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Warrior Kind Of Sucks, Let's Fix That. [93.1% Approval.] [149 Support.]

Discussion in 'General Suggestions' started by JaydonTheWarrior, Nov 28, 2019.

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  1. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Jumla Is best dad. HERO

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    Before I start, note that this is a series of threads, first of which was posted by @Flow of Fate If you want to check out his suggestion on the assassin, here’s a link:
    https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/assassin-in-1-19.256299/


    Warrior's Failing Attempt on Its Own Concept
    Warrior has always suffered from a muddy concept and a lack of direction. If the website didn't say so, I wouldn't know what the concept was supposed to be. For those who don’t know the website's description, it simply says that the warrior has many crowd control abilities and is tanky. 1.19 attempts to combat a common criticism of Warrior’s Uppercut, but it fails to truly address Warrior’s overall lack of direction. So, let's talk about why Warrior fails at its intended purpose.

    Bash
    Bash, in theory, is meant to keep mobs out of combat by slowing down enemies and pushing them away from you, while doing some damage. The main issue is that the debuff is laughable; It fails at keeping mobs where you want them and is so minimal that it's barely noticeable. Currently, it's used just to switch between Uppercuts, and that's all. 1.19 doesn't address this and instead makes mobs able to jump with the debuff applied.

    Charge
    Charge currently doesn’t do much. It's a way to close distance but nothing else. 1.19s addition is a high resistance buff when using Charge in order to (I'm guessing) make the player more willing to charge into mobs, but it doesn't contribute to the concept of crowd control for Warrior.

    Uppercut
    Uppercut serves as both the main damage spell and to keep mobs out of combat. The issue with this is that they're contradictory. If you want to deal damage, then a mob leaving combat is the last thing you want, especially in group play. Currently, Uppercut attempts to do both, and its effectiveness suffers from it. 1.19 changes this, completely scrapping the goal of making a mob leave combat. It does this by:

    - Lowering the time mobs stay in the air
    - Increasing the damage
    - Throwing yourself up with the mob if you shift, so you can continue to hit it

    I like the more focused approach, but there's a much better way of doing it, and it already exists, Uppercut canceling. This allows you to easily switch between DPS and making the mob leave combat by simply casting uppercut and bash in quick succession, this cancels out uppercuts vertical velocity, causing the mob to take full damage, while never really leaving the ground. Sadly, it's fairly hard to pull off currently.

    Warscream
    Warscream was untouched by 1.19. However, that doesn't change the fact that it’s nearly useless. Warscream is cast once every 4 minutes to apply a buff and to push mobs into a corner. The only other use is a very minor amount of range damage. That’s it, nothing else. The spell also attempts to be a taunt, but fails for many reasons, mostly due to how the agro system works. It fails so hard at being a taunt, in fact, that I didn’t even know it was meant to be until recently, and I have the highest playtime of any warrior on the server.

    How Can We Fix Warrior’s Lack of Direction?
    What we need to fix is fairly clear: make warrior better at crowd control, give it some better combo potential, and give it some actual agro ability as a cherry on top. This is going to require a lot of different changes to every spell. The summary is as follows: Make Uppercut canceling an actual feature, give War Scream a purpose, make Charge more than just a fast way to get around, and make Bash actually useful at controlling crowds.

    Fixing Bash
    Let's start by making Bash actually useful for crowd control. The idea is to keep mobs uninvolved during a fight. Let’s say you are trying to fight a boss, but the minions are annoying you. Bash them, and focus on the boss. Here’s my suggestion.
    The debuff is now -70% walk speed for 10 seconds.
    In order to keep this from being spammed, we will lower the damage of the 2nd hit of bash to 50%, but raise the first to 170%.
    Since the debuff is meant to keep mobs where you want them, and not be something that's constantly applied, it will be removed if the mob is hit after it's applied.
    The 2nd hit won’t apply any knockback, in order to give you more control.
    The range of the bash would be increased, mostly in order to keep you from doing the second hit of bash, uppercutting, etcetera.

    Next, we are going to make uppercut canceling an actual feature, and not an unintended one.
    Decreasing the mana used on bash will allow us to make uppercut canceling less mana intense.
    We will also make it specifically cancel out both the mob's vertical velocity and your own, in case you’re press shift during uppercut.
    Bash:

    6 mana

    Upgrade 1:

    -170% damage, 4 blocks in front of you, diameter of 5 blocks. 20% earth damage.

    Upgrade 2:

    5 mana

    -Explosion 1: 170% damage, 4 blocks in front of you, diameter of 5 blocks. 20% earth damage.
    - + Cancels Uppercuts vertical velocity on first hit explosion.
    - + Cancels your vertical velocity as well.
    -Explosion 2: 50% damage, 8 blocks in front of first explosion 1, diameter of 9. 20% earth damage.

    Upgrade 3:

    4 mana

    -Explosion 1: 170% damage, 4 blocks in front of you, diameter of 5 blocks. 20% earth damage.
    - Cancels Uppercuts vertical velocity on the first explosion.
    - Cancels your vertical velocity as well.
    -Explosion 2: 50% damage, 8 blocks in front of first explosion 1, diameter of 9 and causes no knockback. 20% earth damage.
    - + Earthquake: -70% slowness for 10 seconds. Slowness is removed if the mob is hit.

    Fixing Uppercut
    We will do Uppercut next, sense it flows well from bash.
    Overall, we again want to make Uppercut canceling an intended feature, in order to switch in between the secondary purpose and the main use for Uppercut. We also want to enhance the secondary purpose of Uppercut.
    First, we will increase the time it takes bash to reach its peak, to 1.8 seconds, for two reasons: In order to give you a longer opportunity to uppercut cancel, and also to increase the time a mob is out of combat.
    We will increase the height of uppercut back to what it was pre 1.19.
    You can still press shift to fly up with the mob, so a player with a lower level of skill can simply press shift, in order to have a full 1.8 seconds in order to cancel (Should be long enough for a player of any skill)
    We will then give Uppercut a new ability, in between the first hit, and the second hit of Uppercut, your next spell will do 30% more damage on that mob. This is mostly to make both make up for the overall decrease in Bash damage, but also to make people want to combo more.

    The first hit of uppercut will still do 300% damage, this is just to keep someone from waiting for the full time it takes to uppercut, on something they would normally one shot.
    We will increase the time a mob is at the peak of Uppercut to 1.25 seconds, again to increase the overall time of uppercut. In order to make up for that, we will increase the damage to 80%.
    We will keep the last hits damage the same, and the speed from the peak back to the floor will be .5 seconds.
    Uppercut:

    10 mana

    Upgrade 1:

    (Press shift to prevent flying up with mobs.)

    - Hit 1: 300% First hit damage, takes 1.8 seconds to reach peak. 20% earth damage.
    - + From hit to peak next bash spell does 30% more.
    - + Mob stays at peak for 1.25 seconds

    Upgrade 2:

    (Press shift to prevent flying up with mobs.)

    - Hit 1: 300% First hit damage, takes 1.8 seconds to reach peak. 20% earth damage.
    - From hit to peak next bash spell does 30% more.
    - Mob stays at peak for 1.25 seconds
    - Hit 2: 80% Second hit damage. 10% earth damage, 10% thunder.

    Upgrade 3:

    (Press shift to prevent flying up with mobs.)

    - Hit 1: 300% First hit damage, takes 1.8 seconds to reach peak. 20% earth damage.
    - From hit to peak next bash spell does 30% more.
    - Mob stays at peak for 1.25 seconds
    - Hit 2: 80% Second hit damage. 10% earth damage, 10% thunder.
    - + From peak back down takes .5 seconds
    - Hit 3: 50% damage. 20% thunder damage.

    Fixing Charge
    Charge is fairly simple.
    Charge will do an AOE of 150% damage on landing like it already does, however, instead, it will pull mobs in, and not push them away. This is in order to give Charge slightly more useful for controlling mobs, but also so it can chain better into combos.
    Enemies hit by the aoe are applied a -50% damage debuff for 2 seconds when hit.
    Charge:

    4 mana

    Upgrade 1:

    - On landing: 150% damage. Aoe Diameter of 5 blocks. 40% fire damage.
    - + Pulls enemies to you on hit.

    Upgrade 2:

    - On landing: 150% damage.Aoe Diameter of 5 blocks. 40% fire damage.
    - Pulls enemies to you on hit.
    - Hit an enemy during Charge for 100% damage, does not apply resist. 20% air damage.

    Upgrade 3:

    - On landing: 150% damage. Aoe Diameter of 5 blocks. 40% fire damage.
    - Pulls enemies to you on hit.
    - +Gives enemies -50% weakness on the hit of the aoe for 2 seconds.
    - Hit an enemy during Charge for 100% damage, does not apply resist. 20% air damage.
    - + Can control charge.

    Fixing Warscream
    Warscream is an interesting one because we are basically just scraping it. Warscream is now an AOE that deals 80% damage, and deals less knockback the closer an enemy is to you. This is basically so that you can control exactly where you want the mob to go depending on how you space yourself. The mobs hit by war scream will now direct agro to whoever they landed closest by. The rest of war scream has gone unchanged.
    War Scream:

    5 mana

    Upgrade 1:

    -Aoe around you: 80% damage. Diameter of 11 blocks. The closer the mob is, the less knockback applied. No knockback is applied at 1 block ahead, full knockback at 5 blocks away. 25% air damage.
    - + 10% defense for 3 minutes.

    Upgrade: 2

    -Aoe around you: 80% damage. Diameter of 11 blocks. The closer the mob is, the less knockback applied. No knockback is applied at 1 block ahead, full knockback at 5 blocks away. 25% air damage, 10% fire damage.
    - + 20% defense for 3 minutes.
    - + Mobs hit can agro on whoever lands closest.

    Upgrade: 3

    -Aoe around you: 80% damage. Diameter of 11 blocks. The closer the mob is, the less knockback applied. No knockback is applied at 1 block ahead, full knockback at 5 blocks away. 25% air damage, 10% fire damage.
    -Mobs hit can agro on whoever lands closest.
    - + 20% defense and strength 10% for 4 minutes.


    The finished result:
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
    Untitled Doc, whht, Vikrej and 35 others like this.
  2. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

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    K give me a while. I've been busy.

    EDIT: Video

    Scroll down to my later post for my personal commentary and thoughts :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  3. NagisaStreams

    NagisaStreams certified idiot Staff Member Moderator QA HERO

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    Honestly war scream tier 1 is best imo, the explosion like aura is great, other tiers should keep this and not replace it
     
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  4. Mistral Marauder

    Mistral Marauder Surfing winds and chasing windfalls VIP+

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    I helped edit this ;D
     
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  5. Bogdan172

    Bogdan172 Profession Tryhard

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    Good idea. Also, War Scream lvl 1 gives 10% defense not 15%
     
  6. Samsam101

    Samsam101 somehow only just got to level 100 after 4 years

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    Do we really need bash to be crowd control though? Shaman class is going to be all about crowd control, and mages are good enough with ice snake at stopping enemies in their tracks. I guess it would be useful though
     
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  7. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Jumla Is best dad. HERO

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    Website says 15%

    That's kind of the point in a tank class.
    Ice snake isn't the best at actually controlling crowds of mobs, and shaman uses it for skill play. Neither of them use it for tanking.
     
  8. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Jumla Is best dad. HERO

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    By the way, don't just try out the main damage combo.
    Test stuff like warscream, bash, and you actually attempting to use them.

    Oh, and if the animation feels off due to the timing of uppercut, feel free to change them a bit.
    I didn't really take that into account, and I can't say for sure how it will look.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2019
  9. Samsam101

    Samsam101 somehow only just got to level 100 after 4 years

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    Good point, but at the level 75 upgrade for ice snake you can control its direction.
     
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  10. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Jumla Is best dad. HERO

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    66* Still, it doesn't last long enough to be good at removing mobs.
    Its main use is an "Oh shit" button, and a way to slow mobs for metor. (I don't understand mage the best, so forgive me if I'm mistaken.)
    Warrior's is an attempt at actually keeping crowds of mobs out of combat.
     
  11. Samsam101

    Samsam101 somehow only just got to level 100 after 4 years

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    lol i got the levels wrong it was probably because my level 70s were too easy to get through. Also ice snake is a great asset to use on bosses like CoW but I see your point.
     
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  12. Bogdan172

    Bogdan172 Profession Tryhard

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    It actually is a pretty solid crowd control but 1.19 just said no to ice snake so it will suck other than an oh shit button.
     
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  13. Bogdan172

    Bogdan172 Profession Tryhard

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    Also, I checked it in game, you get 10% resistance
     

    Attached Files:

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  14. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Jumla Is best dad. HERO

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    Website is wrong then, doesn't suprise me.
    Thanks anyways.
     
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  15. NagisaStreams

    NagisaStreams certified idiot Staff Member Moderator QA HERO

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    Love changes, only thing I feel like should change is war scream idea. Decrease radius from 11 to like 8, keep the further away effect, but make enemeis within 1-2 blocks take a little knockback (not too small that it wont help but not too large that you can just blow them away)

    Also speaking of warscream.
    War scream 1 is better imo, it literally loses an effect with leveling.

    War Scream 1 pros:
    - Hit enemies in all directions
    - Massive Knockback
    - Great if you are being attacked by a large group of mobs, similar to bash
    War Scream 1 cons:
    - No strength
    - Can't hit nearly as far as war scream 2 & 3
    - 1 hit not like 10
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  16. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Jumla Is best dad. HERO

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    The "No knockback" is specifically so you can gain, or continue to keep aggro.
    If you're unable to get as close as possible with your agro spell, then it may be hard to actually gain agro when you want to.
    The radius of war scream is specifically to give you higher control of how far the mobs go. The bigger I made the radius, the more precious I could make it.
    On that note, keep in mind, it isn't just about keeping mobs away from you, it's specifically about controlling aggro. This is probably what makes my warriors crowd control style different from shaman. You aren't just controlling where mobs are, you're controlling what mobs fight who.
    ________________________________
    I feel this is also somewhat explained here, however, I would also like to point out that this is what warrior was meant to do in the first place.
    I didn't decide for it to be one myself, the website actively says its one.
    http://prntscr.com/q6x7t4
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019
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  17. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

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    HAHA!!!

    Did you think I had forgotten?

    Here's the Demo. Ngl, I was very skeptical at first when I read this suggestion for Warrior. But now, I'm much more confident that this could very well turn Warrior in a positive direction. I love the idea of Uppercut cancelling, and the Bash standstill is a very good CC. Maybe too good in fact, but only time will tell.

    I'm pretty sure @JaydonTheWarrior wanted me to focus on playstyle demoing rather than DPS demoing. This video is rather short, but I believe it gets the point across.



    I'll do Damage Dealt comparisons if enough people wish to, but I don't think that's the point of this suggestion, increasing damage dealt, but more of a playstyle suggestion.
     
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  18. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Jumla Is best dad. HERO

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    I was wondering If there would be any opportunity for myself to try it out, and see if I want to change anything.
     
  19. Novalescent

    Novalescent Wynncraft Systematic Recreation Developer VIP+

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    In the future, ya. I'll have to get in contact with you later though, as I am still busy with other things. I should be available near the end of the month. I'll try to reach out to you then.
     
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  20. JaydonTheWarrior

    JaydonTheWarrior Jumla Is best dad. HERO

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    Regarding the 1.19.1 Warrior Buff.
    I've been questioning what the 1.19.1 change actually does for a while now, and I'm still not sure I have a clear answer.
    The change employs people to use bash, and uppercut in tandem, of which people already did. It also makes people want to hit large groups of enemies with bash.
    Finally, it is a general increase in damage.

    The issue with the first theory on why the change toke place is that it was never an issue in the first place.
    People were going to use uppercut and bash together, this doesn't change much.

    The second theory falls flat when you consider the fact that it doesn't actually make bash more useful.
    I'm assuming the idea is to get people to hit a fuck ton of mobs with bash, so they get the debuff, but also as another benefit to doing so.
    This, sadly, doesn't change how useful the debuff actually is.

    Finally, Warrior's issue has never been a lack of damage. The issue with spell warrior is the amount of knockback applied to the enemies.
    I be it, damage can help mitigate that issue in a roundabout way, however, the knockback is only an issue with spell warrior, the main issue with warrior overall is a lack of clear objective when it comes to playstyle.
    This change, at most, makes Warrior feel like it has a slightly more meaningful combo, and at worst, does nothing more than increase its damage (Which wasn't an issue in the first place.)