Serious The Debate Thread: Current Topic, Choosing Topics

Rule number 1: calm and civilised debates. Swearing is allowed if the intent is to get a point across. It is not allowed if used in a manner that was meant to personally hurt a person.

Rule number 2: In accordance to rule number one, ATTACK THE ARGUMENT, NOT THE PERSON

Rule number 3: ABSOLUTELY NO FLAME WARS.

Rule number 4: Lively discussion is and should always be the norm in this thread. The purpose I started this discussion was to create a medium for the sharing of helpful and interesting ideas, points, and opinions.


Rule number 5: If you wish to speak, please inform me of your intentions and if you stand 'FOR' or 'AGAINST'

Rule number 6: Have fun debating!




Every week, we choose a topic. The first topic is a topic which I chose, to get things started. Topics dont have to necessarily last a week, they may be voted out or extended.

Additional sidenotes for this week's topic:

WE ARE NOW CHOOSING A TOPIC!
Time for choosing: 3 days
If you wish to have a topic added, please suggest it in the comments.

SUGGESTED TOPICS:





FOR



AGAINST



Past Topics:
Abortion, FOR

 

As well as abortion being a safe medical procedure, dissalowing abortion leads to unsafe medical procedures which put at risk the life of the woman. Although there are drugs for self induced abortion in early stages of pregnancy, in less developed nations more physical methods are used, such as beatings to the womb or coat hanger abortions, each carrying great risk of permanently harming the woman. People against abortion often argue using the sanctity of human life, is the sanctity of a definite life (the mother) or a potential life (the unborn baby) more important? Even if the woman does give birth and there is no physical violation of rights, in third world nations where such methods as coat hanger abortions would otherwise be needed, the family will be placee under a great financial burden.

In the case of third world nations arguments of adoption being a possibility instead of abortion are irrelevant. This is because the key feature of these less developed nations is a high birth rate, so much there is a much lower demand for adoptions. Not allowing abortion means more children, more dependents, putting a massive strain on the economy for food, medical care, and education for these children. A nation can not allow moral scruples to prevent development.

Point 8 against "Those who choose abortions are often minors or young women with insufficient life experience to understand fully what they are doing. Many have lifelong regrets afterwards.".
That's such a contradictory point, it rebuts itself. More importatly than the minor not having life experience to make such a huge decision, is that they don't have life experience TO RAISE A FUCKING CHILD. Christ. Lifelong regrets my ass. Would you rather regret not having a child once with the potential to have one later in life when you're more prepared, or regret giving birth to that illegitamate child and having to care for it, because murder certaintly ain't an option if you're starting to regret having that child when it's 5 years old and you can't balance caring for a child with getting a degree.

Point 7 "Many Americans who pay taxes are opposed to abortion, therefore it's morally wrong to use tax dollars to fund abortion". Many Americans also voted for Donald Trump. The point of "Muh democracy" is such a stupid one. You know why the entire population doesn't just vote on laws and regulations? Because the general population are uneducated in such matters and rather than any critical analysis of dilemnas will instead resort to the good ol holy bible in the case of America at least. Also more importantly medical care in America ISN'T FUCKING SOCIALISED, YOUR TAX DOLLARS AINT GOING TO JACK SHIT. If someone wants an abortion it's coming out of their own pocket, which is a problen still, but it renders that point invalid.

Another nonsenical point. "Yeah woman having control of their body is cool, so long as they control it how I wish". Not everyone is tremendously skilled with foresight, complete control means COMPLETE CONTROL. It doesn't "include" jack shit, some people are motivated by pleasure and people can make mistakes with contraception, can those basic things really not be forgiven?

And regarding sanctity of life, go ahead and crack open a chicken egg for me, does that thing look alive?

 

I'm too lazy to work on this full time after work lmao, I'll just pick one :

Pregnancies and therefore the future child should not be used as a punishment for forgetting an easier form of birth control.

If you're so pro-life that you'd say "The mother is responsible for not engaging in unprotected sex and therefore should carry the baby, even if the optimal conditions aren't met", then you show that you don't really care about the well being of the child, you just care that it will be alive in the end.

I'm all up for teaching people how to have protected sex, and making them learn about their own capacities to bear a child, but using a child as punishment for not knowing better defeats your position of being "for the interests of the kid"

Then again this is coming from the guy that believes procreation to be slightly more immoral than adoption (in this current system anyways), so take it with a grain of salt.

 

What they said

 

The main reason why I think abortion should be allowed is that banning abortions won't decrease abortion rates, but instead create greater risk of the mother being seriously injured from trying to perform the abortion herself or without safe medical standards. ASAP science covered the topic in his video, which mainly addressed this point and how contraceptives and abortions work. So if people are going to do it anyways, at least make it where the least amount of harm is done. That's all I have to say about it, I'm pretty gray for the other main points.

 

I mean
Rape
I feel like that should be the bottom line
after that it's pretty much a moral argument versus a logical one

 

Lots of nice points! Quick reminder though, as mentioned in Rule 5, please state (if its your first time speaking in the thread) if you wish to be added to the Speakers List on For or Against.

 

Is this real? Is this really happening?
SOMEONE FINALLY GETS IT :D !!!!!
You sir/ madam had really made me happy!

 

the thesis of all my arguments on abortion is sentience. when does something gain emotions and thought?
From what I've seen, fetuses before the third trimester are generally accepted as not sentient. Most abortions occur before the third trimester, so unless you're profoundly dumb and wait until the third trimester you're not committing a moral crime in my eyes. I have no clue what goes on in the third trimester because I can't find anything that relates to the fetus' growth rather than the pregnant person's changes. I'm not a fetusologist or anything, but for me, abortion boils down to the issue of sentience, which is also the reason why I generally avoid eating terrestrial meats and refuse to eat octopodes and other quasisapient animals.

 

Thanks for all the input! Lets have some naysayers in here to get the debate flowing.

 

You won't get a lot of naysayers, afaik the only mass objection is in the USA, Ireland and Scotland

 

Can confirm that unless you get a fundamentalist religious person, you won't get a lot of people against abortion, especially in a young demographic.

 

Shortly said: Just use a god damn condom.

Okay, that's not it. To start off, I don't think Abortions should be 100% illegal. But that doesn't mean I actually 100% support abortion. Now me personally, as in not including what the government should do, wouldn't want someone to have an abortion and if I was a woman and had a child I wouldn't have an abortion. Now, lets see some of the things that many people who are pro-choice may say (and I am not doing this as if all of them say this).

"Well, it's a women-only issue!"
Is that so? Well if that case, white people shouldn't have been involved with the civil rights movement because its a black-only issue. Straight people shouldn't have helped in the LGBT rights movement because it was a LGBT-only issue. And how about the men who actually support abortion? And also, there is something called freedom of speech.

"You can't control my body"
If that's the case, then the feminists- and in this case pretty much everyone who complains about it, shouldn't be judging and trying to control men from "manspreading". Also, the fetus itself inside already has its own blood type separate from the mother's. Your body doesn't have two blood types. And also, the baby also already has its own DNA. Again, your body doesn't have separate DNA.

"By the time I have an abortion, the baby isn't alive yet."
You are correct, but that doesn't mean that abortion is perfectly fine then. While you aren't killing the "life" the baby has, you're killing the life that the baby would have had. Let that sink in for you. The baby could be growing up a normal kid, making friends, going to school, getting a job, but it won't because you decided to kill it before it wasn't even "born" yet. However, there are some things that can counter this, which leads me to the next saying.

"What if the mother is going to die, or if it was a rape victim?"
This is a big part of what I think about the whole Abortion thing. If the mother is going to die, or if it was a rape victim or anything similar, then I guess you could say that abortion would be justified and necessary. What I don't support is if you have sexual intercourse (not getting sexually assaulted) without using a condom (and if you "forgot to put on a condom", maybe just have an abortion anyway because we don't need people that dumb to live no just kidding, but still that's fucking dumb) and just expect to have an abortion later on. Anyway, thats all for the quotes now, lets move on.

Now here is some things I have to say from myself. One of the biggest things I have to say is why not just use a condom? They aren't the most expensive things on earth. They aren't rare. They're only from 15-25$ at Walgreens. And finally, what I would do if I was in charge of the legality of abortion. Basically it'd be plain and simple, abortions would only occur if the mother's life is in trouble, if the mother was a rape victim, and etc..

Welp, thats all I have to say now, I will leave with a quote from Ronald Reagan. (Also I'm not necessarily endorsing the "Help protect life. Share this" quote at the bottom)



Bye.

 

The question of personhood in the case of abortion is completely legitimate on both sides. So I try to focus on that it's not really about if the fetus is a person now, but what kind of life the fetus is going to have or its potential. This asks a simple, but crucial question: will the child's life be worth saving? On the one hand you mentioned all the success that person could have in life and therefore would miss out on so many things. On the other, if the mother isn't able to support the future child, then that child's life might be a hell hole because it didn't have those opportunities to succeed. Since 85% of abortions in the U.S. are cases where the mother is unmarried, having expectations that most of the children brought up in that situation will turn out fine may be inaccurate. Not to mention that not having an abortion could also inhibit the mother's opportunities and welfare too. Does that mean I support pre-marital sex and not using a condom? No, but I think it's important to realize that children raised under these situations are at greater risk of living a horrible life and thus it is important to weigh the consequences in order to see if it is better to have an abortion or not.

 

While I mostly agree with you I think you're ignoring the fact that the man has to use a condom, so he doesn't or does it incorrectly and the women gets pregnant. It's not really his problem, he can just ditch her.

 

Condom effectiveness rate is 82%
(98% but when you factor other things in it's 82%)

If you count the life the notborn could have had why not ban blowjobs and wanking?

 

Oh look, strawmen all around! The main problem is that it is indeed an issue primarily related to the woman, sure, the responsible man may have some voice, but the woman is the one who has to go through the pain of bearing a baby. And as a mainly female related issue, they sure don't get much say in it, in the 115th congress, only 19% are women, whereas around 50% of people in the US are women. For the gender that is most relevant to this issue, they sure don't get much of a say. Oh and would you look at that, over 90% of congress are Christians, which is going to affect their views on abortion for no reason other than blind faith.

Lmao "freedom of speech" is such a standard conservative """argument""". It only applies to the controversial opinions you hold it seems. Freedom of speech applies to both sides, it has literal relevance to your point, if you believe in freedom of speech you may preach abortion and I may preach anti-abortion, entirely irrelevant to your point. Also worth noting is that freedom of speech is primarily for government criticsm, not saying whatever you want.

Oh my god another strawman. That entire point about manspreading is just a fallacy so I'll ignore it.

Biological structures are of little relevance, what is of relevance is organisms with sentience. I agree terminating a sentient foetus shouldn't be allowed unless in exceptional circumstances, but before it is sentient it is merely a mess of biological material with no control and lacking basic life functions. I can't be assed to find my own evidence on that so here's someone elses relevant reply:

Before the third trimester it might as well be a genetically engineered chicken nugget. You even admit that it isn't alive yet in the next point I now realise.

And I'm indirectly killing by masterbating? The line has to be drawn somewhere, and the most logical place to put that line is before they gain sentience. And would they really be growing up as a normal kid if the parents didn't want them in the first place? Or maybe the parents aren't even prepared to care for a child/are too young too care for a child.

Regarding the use of condoms, not everyone possesses constant skills of incredible foresight, people make mistakes and condoms break, can that really not be forgiven? You make one small mistake and suddenly you're stuck with a child to care for? That doesn't sound very fair. That's some pretty backwards logic, a foetus with no sentience is a potential life so you can't kill it, but it's totally cool to use a condom and waste some more potential life.

And would you look at that it's super Christian cowboy Ronald "I can envisage a limited nuclear war in Europe" Reagan. Same points of the line having to be drawn somewhere on what is a life apply to this quote.

 

holy shit what stinks in here
is it a skunk or did Pancake post again

Well that's cool, except that your idea of sex education is telling people not to fuck instead of teaching them how to use condoms, which is stupid to do, because not only is fucking irresistible due to natural selectivity, but also because that makes it EVEN MORE irresistible because people are trying to make you not do it. Sort of the same reason why I gain more trans pride as more people don't like me being trans. Humans don't like being told what to do.
Kids are gonna fuck, give 'em condoms.

wow, that's a strawman if I've ever seen one.
i don't even know how to respond to this one other than it's not fucking important to abortion as an issue.

and dna matters... why?
what makes DNA so important to you? it's just a fuckin molecule. I mean, it's pretty cool, you could wrap up the solar system multiple times if you took all the DNA in your body and stretched it out
but that's like saying the stars above you determine your personality
that's astrology

Cool emotional appeal
If potential lives are equal to actual lives, does that make sperm and eggs actual lives of individual human beings? In order to deliver on the potential of life, your logic would require that everyone manditorially has as much sex as possible (I mean, I'm not complaining), in order to make as much sperm and eggs into "lives".
After all, the fusion of that sperm and egg could be growing up a normal kid, making friends, going to school, getting a job, but it won't because you decided to let it die before it wasn't even "born" yet.

Someone shouldn't be punished for being dumb. The child of the person shouldn't be punished. Someone who isn't ready for a child or doesn't want one can make life hell for the child and the parent. You're advocating for an overall much worse state of wellbeing than with an abortion. People could be under the influence of alcohol, which, I guess if you wanted to make alcohol illegal, go ahead. Clearly you didn't learn anything from the past, so I guess we'll have to do it over again. And you didn't even mention "dumb people LOL" in the quote so idk what you're doing anyways

because condoms aren't even 100% effective, or even 90% effective. And for low income people, 15-25$ is worth more than an hour of work, so fix your economic system first where it doesn't get pooled up in the top few percent and then you might be seeing more condom usage.

ah yes, president Ronald "McDonald" Reagan. father of trickle-down economics, where poor people give money to rich people and they give it up to poor people or something i don't even know how to make it seem rational
also nice facebook meme

 

The baby could have also been the next adolf hitler, stalin, ETC. ETC. And if the baby was unwanted, then they would have possibly been sent to an adoption clinic, been abused, abandoned, ETC. ETC.
so like I said, moral argument.
Also, just something interesting I noticed is that liberals tend to believe in the worst of Humanity and act on that, while conservatives tend to believe and act on the best of humanity, most of the time.

________________________________

It's called charity. Like I said before,

So they believe that the rich will always give money to those in need, while the middle class will get enough on their own to support themselves.

 

yeah abortion's a lame topic let's pick a meaty one