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Game Mechanics Reworked Archer Ability Tree

Discussion in 'General Suggestions' started by nip nop, Mar 4, 2023.

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  1. nip nop

    nip nop thinking hurts CHAMPION

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    Minecraft:
    This post is now old. Many of the images have broken, and I don't care anymore about fixing them because I was entirely ignored by the content team, and archer has now received its "rework".

    A couple months ago I made this thread, expressing my thoughts about the state of on release 2.0 archer. Since then, many of my opinions have changed and looking back at the thread, there are many things I wish I said differently. Whilst the general balance of the class has improved since release 2.0, many of the fundamental or mechanical issues that I personally felt plagued the class still prevail, and while I cannot explicitly blame CT/devs for being unable to fix these problems, I wanted to share my ideas in how I think the class could be improved. Major mechanical changes to any archetype were not something I anticipated until the very next major update, presumably since dev time would logically be entirely dedicated towards Fruma. Update 2.0.2 has given me some much needed optimism however, seeing as how assassin got entirely new abilities. And so now, I wanted to try my own hand at completely reorganizing an ability tree, and creating new abilities for what I consider to be one of the worst (both in viability and general gameplay/design) archetypes in game, Trapper. I didn't make this with the expectation that archer would be the next class to receive significant changes before the next major update, nor that my very own ideas would be directly used either. I frankly, made it mostly for myself in how I want to see archer be improved. I do think though, that if CT does decide to tackle archer next, that they could use potentially similar ideas as to what I have made.

    I'd like to give a personal thanks to @__BadName and @FrozenEarth for giving me extremely valuable feedback, and FrozenEarth for helping make in-game ability and tree imitation images.

    You don't have to read the entire thread! A lot of what was typed here was simply my thoughts and reasonings as to the changes that I made. Every little minute detail isn't important, you could just look at the altered tree and new/changed abilities. A lot of effort was put forth into making this, and so I appreciate all feedback.


    What issues persist for archer, and how did I want to solve them?

    For me, the general smoothness of archer gameplay that I was so familiar with pre-2.0 largely died with the update's release, and so with my reworked ability tree, I wanted to:
    • improve general mana accessibility for all archetypes
    • improve general archetype synergy
    • rework Trapper, to be a more competent individual archetype
    • hopefully make archer smoother and more enjoyable to play
    • rebalance some currently existing abilities

    The Ability Tree

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Considering the size of the diagram, importing the entire image to the forums doesn't exactly work well. You can either open the image in a new tab, or see the diagram with
    this link. And courtesy of FrozenEarth, here is what a would be in-game representation looks like:

    [​IMG]



    Design philosophy behind new Trapper

    There are a couple issues that I had with Trapper that I felt made it a pretty unfun and unviable archetype. First thing, despite being a trapper, you have incredibly small actual control over your traps. As you are essentially forced to take Bouncing Bomb (even worse if you take Grape Bomb) in any primary Trapper setup, consistent ricochets from casting Bomb Arrow would mean that having traps in any general area are completely random, and so actually locking down a portion of an area was typically unfeasible. With the changes I make to certain abilities like Bouncing Bomb and new additions, I wanted to make it so you can quickly setup traps in an area with a sense of control.

    Secondly, there was very little genuine synergy between the 3 archetypes, especially with Sharpshooter being in the middle of the tree. The biggest thing you'll probably notice immediately is the swap of Sharpshooter and Trapper, which hopefully makes crosspathing a lot easier. I wanted trapper and Boltslinger to become actually usable with each other, but unable to reach the ends of their trees without significant investment. Sharpshooter fundamentally doesn't have any natural synergy with either archetype's playstyles, but I felt a way to improve this to have at least some synergy, was to make grabbing Guardian Angels on the Boltslinger side easier, and to give Sharpshooter indirect methods of setting up traps that didn't require missing.

    And lastly, traps feel clunky to use and underwhelming power wise. With an annoying (albeit, short), arming time, actually consistently landing traps on any mobile mob quite difficult, nor would they actually be viable against mostly stationary enemies. With a couple tweaks to base Basaltic Traps to make them more consistent and new abilities that outright add to individual traps' power, I think they would become smoother to use. Speaking of, I wanted Trapper to incentivize actually controlling/setting up traps in a specific area with the new abilities I added, as per the name of the archetype would suggest.



    New abilities

    Here is listed each individually new ability that I designed for my new archer tree. Boltslinger I felt was a fundamentally solid and well designed/defined archetype as is, and so it receives no new additions outside of making a mechanic that I believe never should've been added to base Arrow Storm optional. Trapper receives the most new abilities, and Sharpshooter receives a couple new additions that I felt were thematic enough, improved gameplay and made the tree fuller, and because I believe every archetype deserves 3 red tier nodes. Courtesy of FrozenEarth who helped make in-game representations for what I considered to be the most interesting abilities.
    • Recursive Explosives-
      [​IMG]
      Recursive Explosives are, essentially, how I repurposed what was originally Grape Bombs into something more coherent for the archetype's playstyle. I wanted to make all of your individual traps more powerful, and Trapper in general to be the "AOE" archetype in archer, so I wanted to juice up trap/Bomb Arrow damage. I felt that adding +damage or +radius nodes would've been boring, and so this was a more interesting solution. I also believed it was a good idea to shift power from Bomb Arrow to traps, so Sharpshooter wouldn't be able to as easily abuse what would be free damage. Essentially, you should consider them as an extension of your traps, as they are affected by abilities like Diamond Compression and Patient Hunter.

    • Diamond Compression-
      [​IMG]
      Diamond Compression is what I designed to be the new secondary red node of the archetype, as Mana Traps, whilst I decided were interesting enough to keep, didn't feel worthy to be a red node or contributed enough to the archetype's viability. The goal behind this ability was to incentivize the player to actually setup traps and lockdown a general location when possible. While you can spam traps more efficiently now, I still wanted players to be able to viably setup during a mob wave or boss phase intermission. Traps continuing to provide damage bonus shortly after exploding is so that if you bring a boss or strong enemy into your pile, your traps won't necessarily become gradually weaker as they explode.

    • Perlitic Pterosaur-
      [​IMG]
      Ironically, despite being apart of the literal archetype description, trapper only has one beast available for usage. I wanted to make an interesting dynamic in that you have to choose one beast or the other, and so each one locks each other out from usage. Although, I typically would consider Pterosaur's niche to be more generally useful than Call of the Hound, and as such it does slightly lower damage. It is also one of the two ways I wanted to create Trapper and Sharpshooter synergy, as it allows you to set traps indirectly without needing to miss.

    • Vulcor Detonation-
      [​IMG]
      Similarly to Mana Traps and Diamond Compression, I felt that Minefield was worth keeping but the archetype needed something new. I didn't want to dedicate another node solely to traps, but still wanted to add something unique that would fit Trapper's "AOE" niche and theme. Since many other abilities get their names from either specific areas or characters in game, such as Bakal's Grasp and Twain's Arc, I felt that naming it after the Vulcor Adrenophage was quite fitting. Players from another Minecraft server will know that this ability was inspired.

    • Poisoned Line-
      upload_2023-3-3_22-41-54.png
      Considering that Grappling Hook is usually not the most viable mobility spell in boss fights, I wanted to add something that would hopefully increase its use rate and Blindness felt pretty thematically appropriate as Trapper is typically seen as the crowd control archetype.

    • Split Trap-
      upload_2023-3-3_22-46-12.png
      After removing default additional trap settings from Bouncing Bomb, I wanted to add a new way of quickly setting up a lot of traps in an area that would benefit Diamond Compression. Split Trap makes your traps (including Recursive Explosives) weaker if you were to simply spam them, but faster to gain Diamond Compression damage boost. It also has some nice synergy with Mana Traps.

    • Spring-loaded Traps-
      upload_2023-3-3_22-49-36.png
      Since I didn't want to completely ditch Bouncing Bomb ricochets setting traps, I simply made it optional. It is one of the two ways I felt was interesting to improve Trapper and Sharpshooter synergy, as it sets traps indirectly without needing to miss.

    • Recoil-
      upload_2023-3-3_22-53-0.png
      The only "new" addition I have for Boltslinger, but is simply a mechanic made optional. It is personally not something I would take, but because it has some genuine movement usage and diehard fans, I didn't outright delete it.

    • Trinity-
      [​IMG]
      The first new ability for Sharpshooter I created, it is something that I thought would greatly help the archetype against waves of enemies, specifically like in the resource room of TNA, as it improves AOE and ideally will help you not need to change targets as often.

    • Bantisu Tranquility-
      [​IMG]
      Every archetype deserves 3 red nodes. Sharpshooter however, is already extremely viable as is. And as such, I wanted to add something that didn't necessarily increase the general strength of the archetype, but acted as QOL and would improve general gameplay. Essentially it is quite similar to Riftwalker's Diffusion in design, as while it doesn't outright buff the archetype's core mechanic, it simply makes it easier to use. Similarly to Vulcor Detonation, I thought naming it after a location in game that feels pretty thematic to Sharpshooter was interesting. 4 Focus seems relatively weak when you first get it, but proportionally becomes a lot better when you get More Focus 2 and Increased Tranquility.

    • Increased Tranquility-
      upload_2023-3-3_23-1-58.png
      Simple white node that improves Bantisu Tranquility and requires high Sharpshooter investment to grab.

    • Pinning Puncture-
      [​IMG]
      Another ability I added to help Sharpshooter feel more complete. Pinning puncture should fit into the Sharpshooter playstyle as its main purpose is to keep enemies away from you, and the way that I decided would be ideal to activate it incentivizes using Crepuscular Ray and so that it isn't fully spammable.


    Rebalanced Abilities

    There are also a couple of currently existing abilities that I felt needed rebalancing, some that needed an extra mpf, some that needed nerfs, and some that I wanted to incentivize be used further. Unfortunately, due to the forums image limit, only the reasonings behind each of my changes will be shown here. You'll have to open the diagram to read the actual rebalances.
    • Arrow Bomb- The only change I've made here is removing the natural self-damage and knockback. This was one of the major points I made in my original archer thread, and yet my opinion has not changed over the months. Every single other base spell in the game has no tangible downside like Arrow Bomb does, making it stick out like a sore thumb, nor is the damage and knockback any meaningful either, simply acting as an annoyance. It has no reason to stay.
    • Arrow Storm- Similarly to Arrow Bomb and my opinion remaining the same to the original thread, recoil is absolutely not something that needs to be attached to the base spell. I've been told that it was an intentional choice so as to not make Boltslinger too egregiously powerful, but I don't really agree that it needs to exist. Boltslinger inherently has downsides in comparison to its counterpart archetypes, needing to be in extremely close proximity to enemies to land an entire Arrow Storm, not having remotely the same level of AOE and crowd control as Trapper, or the range that Sharpshooter provides.
    • Double Shots & Triple Shots- Double Shots now reduces damage per arrow even further now, whereas Triple Shots reduces damage less. This is so that Double Shots no longer makes up the majority of your melee damage, and that taking Triple Shots is more recommended.
    • Bouncing Bomb- Bouncing Bomb in its current state kills nearly all Trapper and Sharpshooter cohesion, and not letting it lose Focus doesn't feel like a major enough buff to be against it. Default ricochet trap setting was also removed to give the player more control over where they set up traps, but is still available in the form of Spring-loaded Traps.
    • Basaltic Trap- The changes here only exist to make traps more consistent to use, removing the arm time so you can better use it against fast enemies, and making traps passively explode against nearby mobs so they can actually be used against stationary targets.
    • Arrow Rain & Escape Artist- Whilst I can understand the reasoning as to the change that made them how they function currently, it effectively made them nigh useless abilities. The damage per arrow was increased, but only being able to an enemy once rendered the abilities pretty unviable. I wanted to grant them the ability to hit the same mob again, but at drastically reduced damage to compensate.
    • Grappling Hook- Now has Stronger Hook incorporated into the base ability. For what is considered a weaker movement spell to Escape, why force additional AP investment to make it better?
    • Mana Traps- The original red ability now made yellow. I also removed the additional added bomb cost, as I believe it was unnecessary and often times even unviable to take. Archer in general is pretty mana-hungry, so I feel it's deserved.
    • Shocking Bomb- The removal of gravity does help you aim better at range, but I think that some added travel speed would be greatly appreciated and make Sharpshooter more consistent to use.
    • Minefield- Similar to Mana Traps, this is basically just the original red ability made pink. I removed the damage penalty because in my tree it is now mandatory to take, and a lot of the time you won't even be reaching the max trap cap in the first place, and so it only existed to lower damage.
    • Shrapnel Bomb- Didn't change much outside of adding a couple additional shrapnels so they're easier to hit, and increasing their damage slightly.
    • Frenzy- Often heralded as one of the most game-breaking abilities in the entire game, it's actually quite a miracle how Frenzy has gone so long without a proper nerf. What was originally a free 120% walk speed bonus, now caps at 50% and decays even faster. Even still, it should still be incredibly powerful.
    • Geyser Stomp- Now that I no longer force the ability to be taken, it deserves some extra juice. I gave it back something that it simply lost during the transition from 1.20 to 2.0, which was blindness. Escape prior to 2.0 was able to inflict blindness on enemies upon landing, but was removed in 2.0 for seemingly little reason. It seemed fitting to add it back on here.
    • All-Seeing Panoptes- What was originally just a straight buff to Guardian Angels, I wanted the capstone red of the entire archetype to feel less underwhelming. In my tree, hybriding Boltslinger with Trapper is quite powerful, and so to incentivize high Boltslinger investment, I added the extra Arrow Storm damage against targeted enemies which fits the archetype's single target nature.

    Removed abilities from the original archer tree

    Here is listed all of the abilities that I deemed not worth keeping, either because they added clutter, were unnecessary, or because with changes to certain other abilities and mechanics they were no longer needed.
    • Implosion- It simply didn't feel like a good ability to use outside of its added Bomb Arrow damage bonus, didn't add much to my new version of Trapper, and if kept simply would've added a ton of unnecessary clutter.
    • Better Arrow Shield- Rather useless white node that I didn't feel was actively harmful, but simply added clutter due to my own new ability additions.
    • Rocket Jump- Because I felt that self damage tied to Bomb Arrow was pointless, Rocket Jump no longer needed to exist and while I could've added it as an optional ability similar to Recoil, it similarly felt like it added unnecessary clutter like Better Arrow Shield.
    • Precise Shots- Any ability that outright buffs any one skill point to be stronger than the other does not need to exist. Simple as that. Unintuitive and messes with build viability.
    • Stronger Hook- Considering how Grappling Hook is often a down or sidegrade to Escape, I felt that the base ability deserves to have Stronger Hook incorporated into it and that investing AP into another ability to make it better to use was unnecessary.
    • Grape Bomb- Essentially Repurposed for Recursive Explosives.
    • Elusive- No longer needed after I've removed Arrow Bomb self damage and natural Arrow Storm Recoil.


    The ability placements of each individual page


    Alongside rebalancing quite a few currently existing abilities and adding new ones, I've fully swapped the positions of Trapper and Sharpshooter. However, I tried my best to keep the pages relatively familiar, but also make crosspathing archetypes way smoother and stronger.
    • [​IMG]
      Page 3 is relatively familiar to the original tree, with the most noticeable change being the swapping of abilities on the Boltslinger side. Whilst Sharpshooter was already able to grab Guardian Angels before, it came at the cost of needing Double and Triple Shots to do so, effectively locking you out of using your melee. Considering that this is some of the only possible hybridization between the two archetypes, I felt it was relatively fine to change, especially since AP can be better spent on other things too.

    • [​IMG]
      This and the next page continue to be pretty familiar. This page especially is nearly untouched from the original, but notably you can easily grab Windstorm and Stormy Feet with Trapper.

    • [​IMG]
      Page 5 is the first major deviation from the original tree, allowing Mana Traps and Cheaper Arrow Storm 2 to be taken by Boltslinger, Leap to be taken by Trapper, and subsequently allows both Boltslinger and Trapper to take Shocking Bomb on the latter page. Twain's Arc is no longer mandatory as it was quite annoying to be forced to take on spell builds that had no use for it.

    • [​IMG]
      While it appears incredibly cluttered, this is by far my favorite page of my tree. Both Boltslinger and Sharpshooter can take Recursive Explosives, Trapper can choose to grab Arrow Hurricane if you are duoing the two archetypes (although you won't be able to pick the end tier abilities), and Shrapnel Bomb, and Trapper can optionally pick Split Trap, Spring-loaded Traps, and Decimator if you are crosspathing with Sharpshooter.

    • [​IMG]
      And the final page remains pretty familiar. Geyser Stomp (and subsequently Fierce Stomp) is no longer mandatory, Frenzy requires much higher Boltslinger investment, all archetypes can reach Cheaper Arrow Bomb 2, and both Trapper and Sharpshooter have access to Perlitic Pterosaur.


    Example Ability Trees

    I've also taken the time to create some example ability trees, to demonstrate the level of crosspathing that's available in my rendition of the tree.

    • [​IMG]

      Not exactly "pure" Boltslinger, as it takes a red node belonging to another archetype, but it's so that you can grab the second Cheaper Arrow Storm, at the cost of needing to use some AP to do so, which I believe is a fair trade off. Otherwise it focuses on primarily the damaging aspect of Boltslinger, and grabbing nodes to help with spell sustain.

      Notable Abilities Taken: Guardian Angels, Arrow Hurricane, Frenzy, All-Seeing Panoptes, Basaltic Trap, Mana Traps, Cheaper Arrow Bomb 1/2, Cheaper Arrow Storm 1/2

    • [​IMG]

      What I would consider to be the "standard" Sharpshooter tree. Grabs everything of the main Sharpshooter line, as well as some additional damage sources.

      Notable Abilities Taken: Phantom Ray, Focus, Bantisu Tranquility, Crepuscular Ray, Fire Creep, Bryophyte Roots, Scorched Earth, Bouncing Bomb, Pinning Puncture

    • [​IMG]

      For my iteration of the archetype, this is what I would probably consider to be the "standard" deviation.

      Notable Abilities Taken: Basaltic Trap, Diamond Compression, Perlitic Pterosaur, Fire Creep, Scorched Earth, Mana Traps, Split Trap, Phantom Ray

    • [​IMG]

      The obvious two archetypes that don't fundamentally clash with each other to allow for crosspathing are Boltslinger and Trapper, and I tried to make it so you could combine with the two relatively fluidly. You're able to completely skip Guardian Angels, and grab strong abilities like Arrow Hurricane, Basaltic Trap, Frenzy and Recursive Explosives together, giving you the speed and single-target damage of Boltslinger, and some of the AOE of Trapper. It's not without its flaws however, as there are plenty of other good abilities that you simply become unable to take due to lack of AP. You're unable to reach the second half of the Trapper tree and All-Seeing Panoptes, but there's a ton of potential variation with the remaining AP if you choose to instead ignore Shrapnel Bomb and Frenzy.

      Possible Variations:
      -Homing Shots, Cheaper Arrow Storm 2, Shocking Bomb or Mana Traps
      -Fire Creep, Scorched Earth, Call of the Hound or Mana Traps
      -Diamond Compression, Minefield, Split Trap

    • [​IMG]

      Another hybrid variation I wanted to make possible, which takes the majority of the Sharpshooter Tree and adds indirect forms of setting traps through Bouncing Bomb with Spring-loaded Traps and Perlitic Pterosaur, but loses out on other QOL/damaging abilities.

      Notable Abilities Taken: Phantom Ray, Focus, Basaltic Trap, Bouncing Bomb, Pinning Puncture, Spring-loaded Traps, Perlitic Pterosaur, Crepuscular Ray




    I don't claim my revized version of the archer tree to be objectively the best way to improve the class, but I do think that if the CT chooses to go over and update Trapper and the tree in general, similar changes as to what I have provided would greatly improve the class. A lot of people like to give Salted some flack for having a pretty rough start with the ability tree on 2.0's release, and while many of them do have their flaws, I also believe that they serve as pretty good bases for future improvements/addons. Pretty much everything I have personally changed have been based off the original ideas that he provided. And if you've come this far into my thread, then I thank you for reading. Feedback is greatly appreciated, or share your own ideas on how you want to improve archer.

    If enough people like my personal rework of the class, I may consider trying to rework Shaman and specifically Ritualist.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 6, 2023
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  2. point_line

    point_line Well-Known Adventurer

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    Stormy feet still locked to boltslinger :(
     
  3. nip nop

    nip nop thinking hurts CHAMPION

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    Minecraft:
    You can take it with trapper!
     
  4. nip nop

    nip nop thinking hurts CHAMPION

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    Bumping... also added some example trees that hopefully represent the synergy within my tree better. You don't have to read everything! You can just look at my tree, the new abilities, or example tree setups if you want. All feedback is appreciated, as a lot of effort went into making this. You don't have to agree with everything I've done, and could use this as an opportunity to talk about the archer tree if you desire. If any IMs, devs, or person involved with the creation of and balancing of the ability tree reads this thread, I'd love to know it's at least been acknowledged.
     
  5. Deusphage

    Deusphage Gunge-Gunge CHAMPION Builder

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    Creator Karma:
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    Perlitic Pterosaur
     
  6. nip nop

    nip nop thinking hurts CHAMPION

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    Minecraft:
    It's a good name
     
  7. Sar

    Sar The Fire Archer CHAMPION

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    rocket jump my beloved how could you.
    just use elemental defence to counter the self damage.

    also implosion is a nice option for some extra cc and does good to motivate learning to aim precise for better damage.
     
  8. nip nop

    nip nop thinking hurts CHAMPION

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    Minecraft:
    I removed self hitting from bomb arrow not particularly for the damage, but because the knockback is not something that needs to exist on the base spell similarly to recoil on arrow storm. The self damage is pretty minuscule, but it also made bomb arrow the only base spell in the entire game to have a tangible downside, and for what reason? It doesn’t actually balance the spell from being completely overpowered, it’s just a nuisance. I originally was planning to make self knockback an optional ability similar to recoil, but my tree had too many optional abilities already and I deemed that it simply wasn’t useful enough like recoil to stay.

    Implosion adds a measly 40% multiplier to bomb arrow… Admittedly, the crowd control aspect was really powerful, likely even too powerful to give to a class like archer. In my iteration of trapper, you won’t intentionally be spraying traps everywhere like how the archetype currently plays and so the CC would be more controlled now, but it otherwise offers very little benefit that you could just use call of the hound for. There wasn’t really much space left for it in the tree, and so I didn’t feel it needed to stay. I think I gave the archetype enough damage as is already.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2023
  9. Sar

    Sar The Fire Archer CHAMPION

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    I currently use rocket jump very often because my sharp/trapper build has no walk speed to speak of.
    So recoil wouldn't be a mobility option sadly.
    Sure it takes a while to fire bomb arrow consistantly with the intent of not hitting yourself in the face or for useful mobility but even with sorcery it is doable to learn it.
    ________________________________
    I do get why a lot of people would rather want it removed, I guess I like the high skill ceiling.

    And I like the rest of the abilities you came up with. they are all well thought through
     
  10. nip nop

    nip nop thinking hurts CHAMPION

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    I really loved reading all the great and insightful feedback I got on this from IMs and everyone involved in the ability tree and can rest knowing that they’re doing their best to actively improve and balance it
     
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  11. Rythew

    Rythew There is war inside the Fruman Walls

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    Umm yes. The Recoil node should instead make the recoil greater, so that it is a much more viable movement option imo. Very good.
     
  12. Samsam101

    Samsam101 Star Walker CHAMPION

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    nope this thread will not die (dnc that this is a necropost)
     
  13. closier

    closier not cmosier

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    I'm necroposting as well fuck it
     
  14. AcadeeAlkana

    AcadeeAlkana Founder of Operation: A.N.V.I.L. HERO

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    While I hold a certain bias against Wynncraft's skill tree system (particularly because of how it limits hybrid builds), this seems like a much more tolerable skill tree than the one I last had to deal with when I was playing the Hero beta!
     
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