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A New Class Statistics System

Discussion in 'General Suggestions' started by AcadeeAlkana, Nov 24, 2021 at 8:19 PM.

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  1. AcadeeAlkana

    AcadeeAlkana Necromancy Imminent! VIP

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    The Stats of the Classes are a bit outdated. That’s not so much of a fault of the Classes’ core designs (except with what they did to the Warrior), but just what the game’s builds allow you to do, and the game shifting to better match the playerbase’s playstyles over the years. Anybody who uses a high-INT Water Mage build can tell you that a Mage’s Damage is technically 5/5, and most veteran soldiers can confirm that Defense doesn’t matter if you rarely get hit.

    Every Class could use some tweaking, as their core design philosophies don’t exactly age well with the ever-expanding list of Items to balance (Salted bless our lovely Item Team for constantly working on said Items!), and they can meet the requirements of being good enough for solo play whilst making them stronger for Parties and the recently-introduced group-based Dungeons.

    Safety
    The more Safety a Class has, the longer and more easily they can stay out of a disadvantaged state in a constant fight. Spells which control crowds, act quickly after casting, and/or aren’t able to be interrupted by enemy attacks make a Class safer. The Mage has incredible Safety with Heal and Teleport, while the least safe Class in the game is…

    …Oh. It’s the Warrior. With their awful range, lack of built-in healing access, and expensive Spells…Yeah, you can expect me to bring up this poor Class multiple times due to it’s unfortunate status as a jack-of-all-overpriced-trades.

    Recovery
    This defines how bad a situation can get for Classes before they can’t save themselves. For comparison, the Shaman has low Recovery due to their lesser mobility and lack of panic Spells, while the Mage has the highest Recovery in the game because of Heal and Warp.

    Range
    The only Stat which remains of the original four. Range is important because it lets you save Mana for combat Spells, instead of needing to use your Second Spell to close the gap or get in your effective range. Even more importantly, the higher your Range is, the longer you have to react to most enemies and the further you can stay out of their range.

    In the case of Classes such as Warrior, I’m okay with making their Spells better because, let’s be honest, their Range is crap, and that'll show their flaws real quick. A lack of range in a game where projectile enemies are terrifying is already enough to put the Warrior in their place, but having crappy Spells on top of that? Please stop, the poor thing's already dropped into the lower tiers!
    Shaman also has trouble with ranged threats, since there’s not much you can do besides throw out an Aura Totem and pray it gets to your target in time. That option is not only costly, but it's also slow.

    Shredding
    How good a Class is at dealing huge amounts of damage or otherwise incapacitating small groups and Bosses via stunning abilities. Classes great at Shredding include the Assassin, Archer, and Mage. (…Geez, Mage is so good at everything, it feels like every Class should be a bit more like it!)

    Control
    How much crowd control and support potential the Classes have. Classes with lower Control probably have better Shredding capabilities to compensate. As obvious examples, Shaman has the highest Control in the game thanks to Totem and Aura, and every Class has some semblance of Control.

    Stats Which Didn’t Make It
    Might as well explain why so many of the stats would be dumped in this new system.

    Why Damage didn’t make it
    Damage doesn’t really matter when people will always find a crazy glass cannon build for their main Class, anyways. Besides, how much fun can you have when you have to dodge the same attack pattern for 5 minutes straight as you constantly chip away at a Boss' Health when you know you could’ve just gone with a different Class and ended the fight in 20 seconds flat?

    Personally, I could live with the game being a slower pace, but enemies are generally designed to force you to kill them first, lest they kill you. Matters aren't helped much by their high Health, which encourages you to invest in DPS more than they do any meaningful Defense build. The less time you have to spend attacking a mob, the less time it spends attacking you and chipping away Health before it inevitably dies.

    I'm not saying in the slightest that we shouldn't have more high-Damage Classes, but rather that more Classes have the natural potential to deal more DPS outside of the DPS-raising builds. As of now, early game and mid game heavily encourage players to maximize DPS and get good at dodging, and though that's not a bad thing, that also means that, come late game, more players could be leaning towards all the DPS they can get, and only considering builds which improve survivability if they absolutely can't dodge everything sent their way.

    Why Defense didn’t make it
    Of the 5 Classes we have (I probably should’ve learned a year or two ago that we won’t get a 6th on, but conceptualization is too fun to give up on it, regardless), 3 of them are glass cannons, and 2 of those 3 Classes have Spells which can entirely negate their weaknesses with little effort. Arrow Shield and Vanish both give their respective Classes get-out-of-2-Souls-lost-free cards. The few tank builds which do exist are only accessible during late-game, and they aren’t even as rewarding to use as the many damage-focused builds, which get the fast-paced satisfaction of ripping and tearing through just about everyone in their way and ending Boss fights sooner.

    In general…Defense doesn’t matter much in a game where evading attacks and learning attack patterns as you beat your targets' faces in is heavily encouraged, as with most other games which involve action-based combat. There isn’t a single case of an attack which would be worth intentionally being hit by as opposed to just dodging it. (...That I know of, at least. Feel free to comment any attacks which actually do that.)

    Why Spells didn’t make it
    Spells shouldn’t be a weakness of any Class, because they offer invaluable variety, versatility, and flexibility. Variety through having, well, four Spells and one Main Attack, and flexibility because you can make use of the most worthless Spells - yes, even Uproot - in at least three different scenarios. Classes who don’t have fun Spells just suck to grind with, and that’s a huge problem when grinding Mobs and gradually turning yourself into (more of) a force to be reckoned with is a big part of Wynncraft’s appeal. Every Class will have at least decent Spells with this set of reworks.

    TL;DR:
    - Damage should be accessible for every Class.
    - Defense is pretty much an afterthought unless you’re getting hit. If it was really meant to be a bigger factor, why can we dodge so many attacks in the first place?
    - Spells are too strong, versatile, and fun to remove from any Class. (Very few Class Suggestions dare to make a low-Spells character for good reason.)

    Implementation
    Just swap out Damage/Defense/Range/Spells for Safety/Recovery/Range/Control/Shredding in the menu. The complexity lies more in deciding what stats would make the cut, and properly defining them.

    The new system would just be for more accurately representing and generalizing what each Class is like to players without knowledge of the ins and outs of each Class. Again, the current stat system is a bit outdated, and it could use a bit of tweaking.


    11/25/2021 Edit: I should probably start thinking things through better, as multiple comments have noted that the system I've suggested, as par for the course, is flawed. I do agree that this system probably won't work better than the current one, especially due to the nature of Shredding and Control getting in each other's ways and my general assumptions without much research that the late-game is mostly similar to the mid and early game. Sorry I'm a bit out of the loop!
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 7:19 PM
  2. NagisaStreams

    NagisaStreams Sertified idiot Staff Member Moderator QA HERO

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    no
     
  3. Shadow_Flamer

    Shadow_Flamer Well-Known Adventurer CHAMPION

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    Agree
     
  4. nip nop

    nip nop i like ava CHAMPION

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    Woah ok so there's a lot to take in here, let's get started...

    What are you using exactly? Mage's spell DPS is very definitively lower than that of every other class, and the few scenarios where it does sort of shine is relative to stacking curses via sorcery which is what I'm assuming you're referring to, and even then this isn't a strategy exclusive to the class. While technically true that defense doesn't matter if you aren't taking damage, consider how unfeasible this sounds and that there are many scenarios in content such as raids where you're basically forced to take damage or have no other realistic options to complete a challenge quickly.


    I actually do like the idea of a category similar to Defense as the pure baseline class resistance statlines don't exactly tell the full story of a class' survivability. However, there is very good argument to make that most classes have incredible ability to avoid damage at all, so the ratings would be pretty muddled sans warrior as mentioned. Shaman has low defense baseline due to being able to crowd control enemies entirely (let's also assume knockback CCI actually works properly...), archer has natural speed 3, a passive shield to protect from melee attacks and massive range, assassin can vanish, and mage has the aforementioned teleport. Warrior doesn't really have any ways to actively avoid damage sans dodging (charge isn't the most consistent movement spell in terms of being able to avoid ranged attacks) so there is 100% still merit to keeping defense as a stat. Recovery is incredibly odd, as literally only two classes out of five in game have methods of natural sustain (not counting major IDs since they are item exclusive).

    How is this any different from the normal damage stat...? It's very important to note just how damage is actually measured on the website. Damage is measured in terms of how well a class performs against a group of enemies. Therefore, shaman and assassin are easily 5 stars whilst archer, which ordinarily has comparable single target damage to assassin but worse AOE, is 4 stars. Warrior also has massive AOE and mage is, again, pretty poor in terms of single target damage. Would make more sense to differentiate for each class both single and AOE DPS, rather than one incredibly muddled stat.

    Similar to shredding, this just feels like a very similar muddled version of an already existing stat. Although, I do agree in that the spell stat is very ambiguous and undefined, so a replacement would be very well warranted. Although, as you've mentioned, nearly every class has some form of crowd control one way or another so how you'd rate each class individually really wouldn't be too different from each other with this specific definition.

    Except that the potential DPS outfit for each class is incredibly fluctuated and becomes drastically more noticeable as you take on higher level and HP bosses found in raids, LI and boss altars. You seem to be looking at bosses at face value based on pure numbers and damage, rather than also considering players' skill levels and the differences in playstyles between varying classes. Frankly, bosses having higher HP means you should invest MORE into EHP the longer a battle goes on, as the statistical chance of you making a fatal mistake and dying easily, especially with a glass cannon build, is increased exponentially. Players will also obviously have differences in skill, and the natural abilities of each class means you have differing opportunities in being able to deal damage. Warrior can naturally be more aggressive and take more hits, and shaman can pull enemies and achieve maximum damage output against multiples enemies at once easily. Not to mention that full glass cannon builds will often die in one or so hits, so being able to take more means you can care less often about dying and focus more on dealing damage.

    If you wanna look at it from a fundamental game design point of view, this ironically enough is wrong for the fact that repeated learning is discouraged from the sole fact of soul points existing...

    If we want to ignore such a mechanic, however, while I personally believe Wynn should take this method of design, it isn't exactly executed in such a way. Above all else, action-based combat here is more or less just memorization. All normal mob spells here have the same telegraph in a singular white circle, meaning that unless you actually memorize the individual spell combos of every mob and boss in game, combat is primarily act first learn later. And again, "just dodging" isn't a valid argument when you consider one of the primary forms of endgame combat content, raids, aren't too well designed with dodging at every scenario in mind. Challenge rooms like TCC's triple and dual platforms, NOL's pog room, and Orphion as a boss, are inherently random that don't play the exact same each time, and will often require tanking a couple hits. I'd love for Wynn to be clearer and more focused on active and more engaging combat with clearer and unique boss attacks, but we just aren't there yet...

    Yeah, I agree here in that this specific stat is pretty worthless as all classes play completely differently, and having one meter to measure viability behind completely different design philosophies and playstyles does not do each class justice, as spells are what define classes as a whole

    I get it, the stats on the help website really suck and could be improved/replaced, but most of these ideas are either completely identical to pre-existing ones, or the ideas behind them are flawed and don't really apply to the game as a whole.
     
  5. Bwitty03

    Bwitty03 Well-Known Adventurer HERO

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    shaman has uproot, which doesnt do the most damage but pulls in enemies. it also has the second largest ranged melee attack out of all the classes
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021 at 5:08 AM
  6. SLScool

    SLScool Well-Known Adventurer

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    It really sounds like these class statistics are meant for endgame characters. For example:
    That's only going to happen when your character is level 100 or something. Early on in the game and even midgame, a mage won't do more damage than all of the other classes (unless a lot of effort and emeralds are put into the mage's build and while the other character's build has no strategy behind it), and most new players won't have mastered "evading attacks and learning attack patterns as you beat your targets' faces in," so Defense will still matter.
     
  7. fishcute

    fishcute fish VIP

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    And anyone using a (good) zero int spell build will tell you that you could be getting that damage and be incedibly tanky.

    Other than that, I actually really like the things talked about here. I very much agree that the spell stat should be removed, as all classes can/should be able to utilize spells effectively. Honestly, giving some classes bad spells is a terrible way to balance things. Every class should be able to use main attack and spells without having game design get in the way.

    I do think though that safety and recovery shouldn't be a stat that's too different between classes. Sure, some classes should be more difficult and more rewarding than others, but this shouldn't be too huge of a difference, otherwise it becomes nearly impossible to balance things without favoring either the easy classes, or the classes that were meant to be difficult.

    I'm also kind of interested in the idea of just getting rid of class base defences and base damages (which I know wasn't what you were saying), but that would require reworking literally everything. I do think that forcing certain classes to take certain roles (mage as support, archer as dps, etc) is kind of dumb, and really annoying.
     
  8. Druser

    Druser ele defs don't matter HERO Featured Wynncraftian

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    Someone claiming mage's dps is that high really needs more experience with classbuilding
     
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