Wynncraft and the war against player convenience (an overdue rant)

Just want to interject and let you know that, since May 2nd of this year, you can edit the ability tree so you don't have to reset it entirely.

 

Dude this isn't true at all. I never once said in any way that anything here (aside from the removing slots) was malicious. And I pointed this out twice.
What I said is that Wynn has a bad game philosophy that player convenience is a bad thing.

 

Here's him literally saying that in his own personal opinion he wanted them to stay.

Otherwise any mentions of the system (including that one) were usually just talking about "improving" it or reworking it.

Back in 2021 there was a conversation in which he had said that he would "like to get rid of them some day" but that was the only time he ever showed any desire to remove them (or at least the only one I could find), and years later he says that he just wants to rework them instead. I've already admitted I was wrong about things, twice to this specific thing. But I was right about him wanting them to stay. Frankly this is such an immense hyperfocus on one single detail that I don't see why we're still talking about it. Like, yeah, Salted wanted Soul Points to still exist. That's an objective fact. Now let's move on.

Actually, it will. We know this because it just happened. Twice.

...huh? You have been arguing with me this entire time... over something you agree with?
If you agree they're bad, then why are we even talking about it? Why go through such lengths to argue in their favor if you think the game would be better without them?
My entire point is that regardless of what they're supposed to do, they're built as an inconvenience to players, and they're bad for the game.

 

I love when people argue for the love of the game, is it that hard to just say I agree with what you're saying?

 

That screenshot is literally salted saying that soul points, as they exist now,
With losing your stuff, shouldn’t exist

 

He said absolutely nothing of the sort.
I have looked through every conversation Salted has ever had mentioning Soul Points and there is not a single time in Salted's entire history that I could find in the discord in which he has ever said that he thinks Soul Points dropping stuff is a bad thing, only that Soul Points are supposed to make you stop playing and come back later and they "aren't doing this well". In fact, if anything he has specifically said that death should have consequences and to this day, dying still does drop some of your stuff, even if it's only ingredients and not armor/equipment. And that's not a criticism, that's just me pointing it out.

If Salted ever thought death dropping stuff was a bad thing, he never actually said so publicly in any of the times he mentioned Soul Points.
But again, I don't see why we are even still talking about this. What is the point?

 

What he said was that soil point should just be a benefit you lose, not a loss you experience

 

And at no point did he say anywhere that he disliked the idea of Soul Points dropping your stuff. He didn't even mention what the benefit was. It was an intentionally vague statement. He's said in the past that he wants consequences of death and dropping your stuff upon death is still in the game to this day even without the existence of Soul Points. None of this supports the idea Salted disliked death dropping your stuff.
And again, what is the point of this conversation other than just to argue?

Personally if Salted so badly wants an incentive for players to take a break, which he claims is the true reason for Soul Points, just do what FFXIV does: when you log off in a safe zone, you get a temporary "rested" XP bonus that stacks up the longer you're logged off. No Soul Points required for that mechanic whatsoever.

 

I'm giving up on trying to argue you on this topic, your arguments all stem back to opinions that you declare as "objective facts" and you refuse to see other points of views that don't agree with you.

 

Dude this is specifically in reference to, yes, the objective fact that Wynncraft has more punishment for dying than Destiny does, something you straightup admitted yourself.

• In Wynncraft, dying makes you lose stuff (inventory ingredients). In Destiny, you lose nothing.
• In Wynncraft raids, wiping kicks you out of the raid while still taking your rune. In Destiny, wiping just makes you retry the encounter again.
• In Wynncraft dying sends you to the nearest town. In Destiny dying just means you can revive yourself 5 seconds later in the same location (or 30 seconds for darkness zones, and 45 seconds for dungeons).
• In Wynncraft you cannot be revived at all whatsoever except in raids and world events (I think) if an encounter is beaten. In Destiny you can be revived on the spot with the sole exception of few specific activities that limit your revive tokens, which even then always give you at least one revive token per person (or a teamwide stockpile for GMs)

You may not like me using the word "objective" but that's what it is. Wynncraft objectively has more punishment for death. That's not a subjective statement, it's a fact. It's not an "opinion", its a categorical truth.
You said they're the same punishment and "equivalent". That is factually incorrect.
If we were talking about the consequences of death between, say, Final Fantasy XIV and Destiny then that would actually be subjective because both those games have a widely available revive mechanic with their own differences. But we're not.

The only reason you don't want to argue anymore is because you lost and the fact that you are so desperate that you have to resort to something as petty as "you used this word four times!" says a lot more about you than it says about me. And that's okay.

Have a nice day

 

I think wynncrafts death system rn is fine :)

it could use some flair in the future perhaps but at least it’s balanced

 

i assume you both mean ability shards

...
people already did this, they just didn't care because at endgame you had 2 free deaths before you start losing stuff and they regen-ed every twenty minutes.

Also getting stuck in something without a scroll and having to lose two soul points was just the worst, soul points caused me to lose more stuff from dying and getting stuck than actually dying, because I would log off in fear of death after dying. (Also one of my friends went AFK in olux and lost everything, including crafted gear he forgot the recipe to make, so considering soul points good game design is just ridiculous)

one last thing: Until they made raids not cost soul points in the challenge rooms, I never did raids at 11 or fewer soul points for fear of losing my stuff. If everything went wrong, I could die in all three rooms and the boss, losing 8 soul points just from a raid.

SOUL POINTS WERE BAD
even if you think the concept of death punishment is good, it's either unnecessary to punish a mistake or the death carried another cost: runes, keys, 12 EB

they were a poor implementation of a mechanic that did not fit well in wynn to begin with

And now, onto ability shards:
Most abilities poorly describe what they do and none of them describe how it feels to play with them. Looking experimentation to towns means that practically the only place you can get actual combat in is in OLUX, and that's level 50. Ability points matter, but not too much at that point.
If abilities actually described what they did in great detail and were magically capable of simulating a game experience using that ability for the player, then yes, it should matter what the player chooses. But you're missing the point: Ability shards are easy to obtain. So easy, that I'm just as annoyed by their presence as having to constantly sell them on the market since nothing else gets emeralds from selling them.

Just like soul points, they are a poor implementation of a mechanic that does not fit in wynn at all

Which you can get back if you know where you died.
Nevermind that minecraft is a sandbox game and wynncraft is an MMORPG, same thing
it's not like wynn has hundreds of unique items and their strength is RANDOM and you have to invest more than experience points and FREAKING LAPIS LAZULI to make them worthwhile.
also villagers

all those things require a good build
morph still needs extra point distribution, a weapon, and an ATree.

also once you've done everything there is to do, what is left but to do those things in different ways?

it doesn't affect lazy/uncreative/sparingly playing people so it doesn't matter is a flimsy argument at best

literally not for everyone
also time is valuable

... this entire thread is Spaghetti Man's feedback and people getting upset about the maybe-a-bit-too-all-encompassing sentences
oh and the "ABILITY SHARDS ARE GRAET GUYS" people

(you do respawn in the next room)
(and get rewards if the party succeeds the raid)

 

I did. Look, I'm just too much of a Wynncraft Boomer to keep track of all the new systems.

 

nah it's fine i was just a little confused

 

I agree, this reply was in relation to Shoefarts saying that death in Wynncraft is not consequential enough, which I responded by pointing out that it's actually more consequential than many other MMO games, using Destiny as an example.

Yeah sorry typo lol

I mean wiping as in your entire team dying which kicks everyone out of the raid, whereas in Destiny it just restarts the encounter you were on.
Also I want to make it clear, none of what I'm saying about Wynncraft's current death system is criticism of it, I was just pointing out that there is plenty of consequence that there doesn't need to be any further punishment for dying.

 

oh okay

 

I just now realized I put both "Worm" and "Earthworm" in the poll, whoops.
Everyone pretend "Worm" says "Dragonfly" instead

 

an even worse part about ability shards is that they aren't even an account wide resource, but an actual item in the game. Its incredibly annoying to either store (No one wants to stock 5 stacks of ability shards, but refilling ability shards in your bank is a chore), or buy new ones for whenever you want to do literally anything related to the a-tree. If for whatever reason the developers / CT really want them to stay, then atleast don't make them another item you have to manage account wide like teleport scrolls and runes

 

My suggestion was that if they absolutely had to stay, just make them an account-wide background resource that goes straight into the Ability Tree menu similar to how Aspects work.
Also, I never thought about it until Elytry pointed it out but the fact you can only change in towns is kinda silly, so they should let you change anywhere except in equipment-locked activities like raids and lootruns.

 

I completely agree with the points this post brings up. I would even like to take it a step further: dungeon keys, runes to enter raids, and the emerald cost for Legendary Island are completely pointless features that only mildly inconvenience players.

Dungeon keys only matter in the early game, on a player's first profile - I have an entire bank page full of dungeon keys and runes, and it has never run out. The only thing they do is force me to run to the nearest town whenever I want to do a dungeon or raid. As for the 12 eb cost to enter legendary island, it takes me less time to gather that than it does to play through Legendary Island.

The only effect these costs have (other than slightly annoying players) is to artificially limit the number of attempts players make at these challenges, due to the psychological effect the cost has, even if the cost is meaningless. Doing a dungeon, raid, or Legendary Island run already has a much more significant cost: The time it takes to do it.

Also, on a tangentially related note: Annihilation should not be an event that only occurs every three days per server. Instead, make it a challenge you can start at any time and do as many times as you want, but make the rewards only drop once a week or something.