SPOILER Moral Ambiguity Doesn’t Work in Wynn

I am aware. I never disagreed. I never said I didn't want to improve the portrayal. What drives me insane is me saying 'yeah, the in game portrayal isn't the best, but they are both amoral' and for some reason that's debatable???

 

no i mean like

orphion sent a very vague vision, so was he stupid, or bad at communicating?

 

I refused to GIVE A DATE. I did, in fact, elaborate.

 

yeah???

off the top of my head

i cannot list any bad actions of orphion (except for possibly intentionally having the tree cut down) or any good actions of the DB

orphion's presence is a net positive for gavel, while the silent expanse is alien and can't really coexist with the rest of the world

from the perspective of a baseline, non-influenced person (aka the wynn inhabitants), the light is much friendlier to the baseline than the dark

to liken it to terraria, this is like a secondary dev saying that the hallow is just as evil as the corruption and crimson when the (hypothetical wynnlight-analogue) hallow is just like

stronger enemies and a different kind of tree

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ok that's valid evidence

 

Maybe you guys just don't understand what amoral means. They're not good, they're not evil, they're not neutral, they're not anything. They're like animals, they're like wildfires, they're like tornadoes. You cannot say their actions are good or evil, you can say that the outcomes of them negatively or positively impact people's lives or the world, but they exist above morals. A Realm Beast, much like an Elder God, cannot be Moral or Immoral because the idea of morality is one that is purely mortal. We invented morals, and only we can follow them. You cannot ascribe morality to a deity like Orphion or DB.

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Amoral doesn't mean they are neutral. It doesn't mean that they're immoral. They are forces of nature-- they might as well just be phenomenon like weather. Weather can strike your house with lightning and kill your family and that sucks. Rain can grow your crops and feed you for the season. Neither of these are moral or immoral, because weather cannot be good or evil.

 

I didn’t ask when the Darkness Portal was closed before 0 AP, I asked, “Why did it close then?” It referring to the Darkness Portal closing before it was reopened a second time by the elves. And you just said this:

 

So let me make it clear:
There is no moral dilemma when it comes to Realm Beasts, because there is no morals to begin with.

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Yeah. I can't tell you why it closed, goofball. That would be leaking.

 

And that’s fine. But you’re completely missing my point about relying on information that’s not in-game and why you shouldn’t do so. Because my whole original point of the thread was about how Orphion and the Realm of War is portrayed currently portrayed in the game. Even if Grian thinks Orphion is amoral, great, but that still doesn’t change how he is currently portrayed in game. That’s what is problematic; that intent isn’t just showing through into the game.

You even have said yourself multiple times that Orphion being amoral isn’t the portrayed the best in-game. So why do people keep arguing that it’s obvious that it’s portrayed in game when given the poll and you rely on outside, private information to make your points?

 

dern beast went to all that trouble to grow the eldritch outlook, and you insult them like this? rude.

to be serious, a lot of dark areas are pretty nice looking, and light being more pleasant than darkness is what makes the amorality of light/dark an interesting plot point

 

Thanks for the link. I do have to admit that the Cancereater is evidence of the Darkness being present in the SE with the Olm before they got wiped out. And the Time Valley secret discovery is evidence that the Olm aren’t from the SE originally.

 

The issue is, there kinda is morals? Orphion is shown defending Gavel, while the Dern Beast is shown destroying the Olm. Even if you frame the former as amoral, claiming it's simply doing it to push back the Darkness from spreading, I'm not sure you can really frame the latter as anything except objectively evil. So at best, you have amoral that inadvertently does good vs evil, which just becomes Good vs. Evil.

 

I'm not. None of my arguments use information outside of the game as a crutch. Everything is either info stated in game or stuff I wrote.

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A light rain grows your crops and creates the conditions for your crops to grow. A particularly nasty storm destroys your fields, and lightning sets fire to your barn. Neither of them are moral or immoral. One experience is pleasant to you, the other is not, but it does not change that they are both entirely amoral.

 

A *light* rain is ALWAYS shown to be good
a nasty storm is ALWAYS shown to be bad

at some point a pattern emerges

 

But rain and storms don't have sentience, or control over their actions. Meanwhile, Orphion and the Dern Beast are very much conscience and very much in control of their own actions (until Orphion gets a little hitchhiker).

 

A bear eating you, a bear eating a bunch of people, isn't objectively evil. It is bad for the humans, and their families, yes, but the bear acts out of hunger. Similarly, a Realm Beast doesn't take an area and kill the inhabitants out of any sense of goodness or evil, it does it just as an animal would eat another animal for sustenance.

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Nothing is objectively evil anyways because "evil" is something humans made up.

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They're both rain, goofball.

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As is a bear, and a bear is not evil if it kills you. It's just hungry, or territorial, or protective of food or offspring

 

But a bear is generally accepted as less intelligent, and thus its actions can be forgiven to some extent as it does not realize the ramifications of its actions. The Dern Beast and Orphion are clearly at least on par with our intelligence, if not far greater.

 

Ok, and? As is Cthulhu. Cthulhu waking up and killing everybody doesn't change the fact Cthulhu is amoral.

 

But Cthulhu is also explicitly framed as evil in the story

 

but one seems to be GOOD and one seems to be BAD

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Look guys i think we are both saying the same thing

We are saying that ingame the beasts being amoral is not done well
Deus is saying in the story the beasts should be amoral, but it isnt done well ingame

we are kinda agreeing

 

Like you cannot be amoral at a certain level of intelligence, because you understand your actions will have consequences, and no matter what the reasons behind your actions are, those actions will influence your morals.

Also if the Light is as amoral as the Darkness why isn't the Light spreading across all of Gavel and sending its agents to infect areas like the Darkness is? Why did the Light only push Lari to purge the Darkness, instead of spread its influence through the much, much weaker people of Gavel?

Honestly I don't even agree that in the story the Beasts' amorality is done well, since if they were both truly amoral, seeking to do nothing but expand their influence, the Light is extremely stupid for not at least pushing their agent to spread the Light's influence throughout all of Gavel, while the Dern Beast has no qualms about ripping out one of its Eyeballs to force its presence into the world and allying with Bak'al to spread its influence.