SPOILER Moral Ambiguity Doesn’t Work in Wynn

we dont know if the light is less destructive than the darkness, we've only ever seen the world in a state where orphion is much weaker and the dern beast much stronger. if the roles were reversed im sure we could have silent expanse-level destructiveness in gavel

okay but like. its still on the verge of destroying half of gavel. like you realize that doesnt change anything lol

 

We literally do though. The Light has been in Gavel for thousands of years and it didn’t wipe out the native inhabitants (Villagers, Elves, Orcs, etc.) and in fact lot of them relied on the Light to thrive. All of this was long before 0 AP when the Light was stronger. And yet when the Portal to Dern opened, the Dern Beast slaughtered the Olm and drove them out of the SE. The Light Forest is also miles more habitable than the SE.

That’s literally the entire storyline of Gavel (minus DnD I guess); everyone was better off when the Light was stronger in Gavel, and now they’re worse in every way because it’s weaker.

 

I literally have

Most of what I've stated is in game. The only stuff that isn't is like... the lore I wrote for Fairyflies and Fumeflies.

 

he might not be able to do anything with it...

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If there were backrooms or one of those "crystal things" from RoL in Light Forest, would that be enough for you? Deusphage said that's how Light works (compared to Dark's body horror) and it is destructive.

 

You don't know that. There's plenty of ruins around Gavel that belong to unknown civilizations. There's the Rune Civilization-- which we have no clue what their relationship with Light was like.

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I'll state it in again: The moral ambiguity in the STORY works. In game it isn't portrayed all too well, and I do want to add more things that make it clear that the Light is also Eldritch and alien like Darkness and that Light is just as amoral and selfish as Darkness.

 

If the Light were more destructive than the Darkness, then like the Olm in the SE, then the Light would’ve gone a killing rampage after the portals opened and driven the elves, villagers, orcs, etc. out of most of Gavel. That and the inhabitants of Gavel still overwhelmingly benefit from the Light is the fundamental reason why the Light being amoral or on par with the Darkness just doesn’t work.

And btw, keep in mind that while Deusphage is on the CT, Imaxe and Grian are the ones who actually made the Realm of Light quest line and its lore behind it. And the fact that I’ve never heard Imaxe, Grian, or any other CT argue Orphion is amoral, we shouldn’t take what Deusphage says as authoritative as Imaxe’s and Grian’s voices and how they currently portray Orphion in game.

If it’s not shown in game and everything else in game implies otherwise, then it doesn’t count. This, the SE being influenced by Darkness before the Olm got there, and all of the Portals being opened and then closed again at one point is what I’m talking about you relying on information that isn’t in game. Especially since from what we do know from that runic civilization, it collapsed when they combined their runes together (according to item lore). Could the Light have negatively impacted that civilization? Maybe, but again there could be a lot of other possibilities too, so it’s irrelevant to the discussion.

As an author or content creator, it’s not fair to make an argument about an interpretation about your work by using information that isn’t in your work. It’s just shitty in general to win arguments by withholding information.

Relying on information that isn’t in game or not mentioned directly by the devs is also problematic because it can easily change without us knowing when it finally is implemented in game. If you listen to any behind the scenes commentary in media, it’s common for artists and authors to change their work while in development. Wynncraft is no exception; the lore has changed before and it’s gonna change again now that WynnEx is getting a rework. Heck, Lari wasn’t even a character before 1.20, and an entire race of sentient Light people in the RoL got removed.

It’s like how J.K. Rowling was trying to say that Dumbledore was gay or Hermonine was black in the Harry Potter series. The problem wasn’t it couldn’t be possible for them to be gay or black, or them being gay or black was the issue in of itself, it was the fact that they were never portrayed as such to begin with and it didn’t add anything to the original series.

Or if I wrote a story about a nice guy who donated to charity and loved his son, only to then argue after I wrote the story that he was secretly evil and kicked puppies, I would be technically right, but you could have never known that from reading the story. As an author I can say whatever about the story whenever I want no matter how much it changes it after the fact because it’s my story at the end of the day.

And again, you’re not even the creator of these quests and lore.

Even if Grian or Imaxe secretly agreed with Deusphage, that still doesn’t change the fact the issue is with how it’s currently portrayed in-game. Which Deusphage already agrees with it’s not portrayed well in-game.

TL;DR If you want to argue Orphion is amoral, just don’t use info. that’s not in-game or we don’t have access to. And don’t argue that Orphion will be portrayed to become more amoral so therefore we should treat Orphion as amoral now. Because that can easily change between then and now just as the lore of Orphin and the Light did before, and it’s ultimately not your final call to make, it’s Grian’s. I’m with fine with the idea of him being amoral though, and I hope he is more so in the future.

 

Deus




For 94.2 percent of players, the story IS what is shown in game! There is not any other story for them EXCEPT whats in game!

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Also THIS THIS THIS YES YES YES

 

I think you misunderstood my point. If there was a place that was clearly destroyed by Light's influence, in Light's style ("weird geometry" (which is a point I really like btw)), would that be enough of a proof? Doesn't have to me massive, but noticeable.

Btw ah yes, the person who is like the main loor messenger for us definitely doesn't have accurate info.

 

Yes, something akin to that where the native Gavel inhabitants got wiped out and/or are still being harmed by the Light today. Because it would be a much bigger moral dilemma if it’s shown that restoring the Light to Gavel would also negatively impact others in the process. (Again, Light Emissaries don’t really count for reasons I already stated).

You misunderstood my point. I’m not accusing Deusphage of lying or that Deusphage isn’t privy to development. I’m saying that Deusphage doesn’t have the same authority as Imaxe or Grian when it comes to this matter because they created the lore and quests, and Deusphage didn’t. And that it doesn’t matter what direction Grian and the CT want to take Orphion in because we’re talking about Orphion’s and the Light depiction’s in the game now, NOT in the future. Because otherwise you can’t say anything about a piece of media since a lot of things can change during development.

Think of it this way. Imagine if we were having a similar conversation about the Light, but it’s a few months after Gavel had released in early 2016. And a CT member was using information they had heard in development to support their interpretation of the Light, even though that information wasn’t in-game and still in development for the future. And they still didn’t make the quests themselves or had the final say on it.

Fast forward to 1.20 in 2020, and what that CT member said would probably be wrong given how much the lore of the Light has changed. That doesn’t mean that that CT member was lying though. The CT member was just saying what their interpretation was based off of what they had heard in development (when they were a CT at the time) and where that CT member wanted to take that story to.

That’s basically the situation we are in right now. Grian tomorrow or in 2 years can say he wants to change Orphion to make him more moral, and there’s nothing that Deusphage or anyone else on the CT could do about it. And the rest of us outside would have no idea about it until it got released in-game.

And this happens outside of Wynncraft too. One of the people who worked on Hazbin Hotel before the TV series released said Rosie, an overlord in Hell, never died. Which was a mystery since it was established earlier that humans have to die and become sinners to go to hell. Years later after the TV show came out, another person who worked on the show said that Rosie did die like every other sinner. Or Vivziepop (the show’s creator) saying that a yet to be featured character on the show died on the Titantic, but later said it was an unknown boating accident to make the show distant from real world tragedies and more respectful. And who knows, maybe Vivzie will change her mind again and have that character die in the Titanic once he finally appears in the TV show.

Again, was that original person lying? Probably not, but they were never the final authority to begin with and even then, creators are free to change things up in development anyway.

 

I'll throw my hat into this ring as a casual lore enthusiast, at this point unless there's a heavy course correction/massive rework of quests, I'm not sure you can really depict the Light as amoral/just as bad as Darkness without it feeling extremely forced. Maybe in that secret lore document, there's a list of the Light's atrocities and how the Dern Beast actually hands out cookies to orphans or something, but in the story we see the Light as this mostly neutral, somewhat beneficial entity that has prevented the realm of Gavel from being completely overrun. Meanwhile, the Dern Beast is seen as this ultimate evil, where third party figures like Bob, the Canyon Colossus, and seemingly Farcor all oppose the Darkness, while never going after the Light. And maybe the Colossus never goes after the Light because the Light has never tried to encroach upon its territory, but that begs the question about why the Light isn't trying to push into its territory while the Darkness is.

Even if you pull "the Rune civilization was devastated by the Light eons ago" it just doesn't make sense with what we know about the Light now: why would it take such destructive actions, if it hasn't in the modern day over Gavel? The Eldritch Outlook may have enemies that aren't hostile, but in the end the Eye literally brought the Olms to their ruin, so I'm not really convinced that they're all that great. The Lutho Beacon might be sucking the souls out of the inhabitants, but it seems like the choice was never forced upon them, and the alternative is a literal hellscape, so the happy, ideal dream world doesn't seem all that bad.

 

On this same thread in Discord, Deusphage said the Light is present in the Canyon of the Lost and even in Molten Heights in the form of trees that got added to MH in the Lootrun Update. Just that the Light’s effects in those places is less pronounced due to their distance from the RoL portal.

 

Then that begs the question why the Colossus, who's guarding the Canyon from negative outside influences, isn't purging the Light, while it's been shown to block the Darkness.

 

neither of those are really relying on external information

the olm had a device for processing material from the toxic wastes, which is evidence of the first

and "the portals had lied dormant for so many years" is a quote from ASp2 that explicitly states the second

 

We’re never shown the SE before the Olm arrived or before the DB laid siege to the Olmic city in that secret discovery. Could you send a link to what you’re referring to about the toxic wastes? I think I heard of it, but I can’t find it right now.

AS2 never says the Portals were opened and then closed before 0 AP. Just that they were closed before 0 AP. Deusphage then literally refused to elaborate on it because it’s not in-game…. Again, that’s why it’s a shitty thing to win arguments by withholding information.

 

jesus christ
i wanted to comment to mad that nowhere is it stated that the olm lived in the SE after it became the SE and in fact it seems implied the darkness conquered it after the olm had been living there for a while but that's

so, uh:

yeah a lot of mad's comments here are a serious issue of CT knowledge not being anywhere near congruent with player knowledge

wynncraft itself will not tell you information such as:

• the olm not being native to the se (where else would they be from?)
• the se being darkened before the olm arrived
• the thoughts and lifestyles of eldritch abominations

and additionally there are other bits of confusion:

• why does the obelisk create corruption but the parasites don't?
• why did orphion save the people of lutho?
• what was the deal with the elves cutting down the tree anyway? is orphion stupid?

and additional places where it's very easy to have an understanding counter to mad's:

• people are not going to distinguish corruption spikes and dark spikes, they look very similar while there are no light spikes at all
• the darkness' flavor of eldritch has much more presence than the light's - the light creates things that are bright and pretty, while the darkness does not
• since there aren't any proper spokespersons for the darkness, nor anything it does that's not shown to be harmful or at the very least antithetical to uninfluenced life, it is extremely easy to see it as pure evil - nothing is shown to the contrary
• likewise, supporting the light in gavel is shown as objectively good as doing so cures the decay, which is very harmful to everyone
• in short: the lack of any information in game that contradicts the obvious interpretation means nobody is going to reach the 'correct' answer, since nothing points to it

look it is very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very easy to not interpret all of this in the 'incorrect' way where the light is broadly good and the dark and corruption are violent and evil

because you do not show it otherwise

mad i would accept your arguments a lot more if you directly pointed to where in game your information is stated or shown, instead of just giving it outright

so yeah i agree with zed

weeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllll

if you go by htmn's theory that i happen to have contributed to, not yet posted...

they may have gotten into a couple millenia of particle-accelerators-and-harry-potters war with orphion, which wouldn't be a positive relationship...

 

That one is explained in game, in particular Aldorei’s Secret Part II. In Elven culture, it is the highest honor to ascend to the Light and meet Orphion. Similar to reaching enlightenment in religions. So one leader of the elves a long time ago had a vision from Orphion of the Tree Guardian. And the elven leader thought it was a message to cut down the tree so the elves could finally meet Orphion in the RoL. But it turns out that vision was a warning from Orphion to do the exact opposite. The Elven leadership was so consumed with going to the RoL that they didn’t consider that possibility.

 

????? Are you okay??????? This isn't like, a debate or something. The Realm Beasts are amoral. It is stated they are such in game by the Guardian of the Forest. It's not like I'm spewing some fringe unheard of idea of the lore-- This is ONE OF THE MAJOR ELEMENTS OF THE WAR OF THE REALMS???

 

yes yes yes yes yes yes

 

You're really getting on my nerves. I'm not telling you because ITS NOT PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. I'm not going to leak parts of the story, the idea that me choosing to NOT leak is me 'trying to win an argument by withholding information' is INSANE

 

https://wynncraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Cancereater

we know the olm were taken to dern(1) and when humans found the SE, which we know happened before 0ap(2), the olm were already gone. the conclusion that the portal was opened and then closed at some point in the past is the obvious one.

time valley. they broke time and had to flee to the expanse(3)

(1) "We managed to escape from the Realm of Dern" -secret room in wynnexcavation D
(2) a Wynnic Excavation secret discovery (dated 800bp)
(3) "The olm cannot survive here. Time has been ripped asunder... Our only hope is... The expans-" -timeless ruin secret discovery