def changes for 2.0

like why the hell did ehp need a nerf it makes glass cannons who had the ehp of a wet noodle still have the ehp of a wet noodle and hyper tanks lose like 10k ehp out of their 400k ehp it only makes the average player weaker and die more often witch isnt fun for anybody it just feels unnecessary and makes the game more ragey for the average player

pls feel free to tell me how im stupid and dum if you disagree

the meef has spoken

 

what? tanks were by far the most affected by def/agi nerfs

 

I thought nerfing wasn't overall a terrible idea -- it just shifts how people think and forces players to try to get more skilled. In 1.20 you could be literally immortal and still deal good damage. You didn't have to care about what the boss was telegraphing because you could just eat the damage anyways. It's fun to feel immortal for like a few days, but the game got really boring really fast that way

 

I agree with that, and I agree that the def nerf was a good idea, but soul points need to also be removed, so that players can practice more and actually get better at the game.

 

Yeah the soul point system has flaws. For one, it’s way too punishing and kinda propagates the current survivability #1 mindset. Perhaps not remove but reduce penalty or improve the soul point recovery rate? Also it disproportionately punishes lower leveled or newer players since people who know what they’re doing know how to find world sunrise times and can easily recover 2 sp within like 3 mins. (At least for 1.20, dunno if they changed that in 2.0)

 

Probably did that to nerf stuff like tierstack, it has neat damage and almost no downsides and only requires the skill to click 4 cps. Now with the nerf im more compelled to play more skill-oriented builds and try new less tanky builds as well cause there isnt as much difference anymore. Also better redo that math, 400k ehp players pre-2.0 at least lost half of that on release.

On the other hand, the devs gotta tone down the damage of TCC and probably NOL mobs to match the current standard more as they are now, especially tcc, very hard to access without relatively expensive gear.

 

DEF and AGI are fine honestly where it is right now for the content that is up to date with the 2.0 update(TNA for instance). However there are some issues with it where if you run into content that was built specifically for 1.20 and below, those are more focused on the older mechanics of 1.20 and below, so it would feel like an absolute grimy time trying to go through those content depending on the build and what you have in store. On the other hand, some stuff would just get absolutely demolished due to the 2.0 system outclassing the small amounts of HP that those mobs may have, so consider that an indirect buff to compensate against what DEF and AGI attested to super back then.

I am pretty certain CT and devs are still working to balance and flesh out to meet the new system of 2.0 with said content, and those will be focused at a later given time like TCC and NoL. It was a huge system and project introduced in the first place: I can understand why the balancing may seem whack outside of said content right now along with whatever other objectives they had completed on their mind.

 

the change was first and foremost just to finally actually nerf hypertank builds (granted, endurance & friends were arguably the most problematic part and not the EHP values but i digress). not that terribly important for singleplayer experiences but with raids trying their very hardest to give players a fair yet difficult challenge and wars being, well, wars, the extremely absurd level of tanking you could get to was just unhealthy for the game and its balance.

while you can definitely argue against the agility change as to me personally it still feels more like a boss/war balance cope than a real warranted change, the percentual nerfs really have not been anywhere near as crazy as some people make them out to be. while not insignificant for people running fairly defensive builds, i think there's some misinformation being spread about how and what actually gets hit here.

let me try to explain the problem that existed with defense & agility, as that should explain both the problem and the solution. the skill point effect % for both stats is (effectively) damage reduction by a %. this means that it scales exponentially- so for example 100 / 0.4 (60% effect) does not increases your effective health by twice as much as 100 / 0.7 (30% effect). it increases your health by nearly 3.5 times as much, actually. because of this, defense and agility (also intelligence's mana cost reduction but that's like two miles away from this discussion) actually start increasing in effectiveness as their numbers get higher, despite the actual % effect increase per individual point going down. so at the old numbers you'd have:
50sp ~ 39.9% reduction ~ x1.66 EHP
100sp ~ 65.0% reduction ~ x2.85 EHP
120sp ~ 72.2% reduction ~ x3.60 EHP
150sp ~ 80.8% reduction ~ x5.20 EHP

which is a little weird, but overall acceptable. the real problem comes when both defense and agility come into play, which is unavoidable especially in organized group format. this is because you can now pull numbers through this same damage reduction calculation again (obviously agility isn't as consistent as defense in this, which doesn't make it a guaranteed EHP value, but if you have some decent defense and don't die within two hits it will effectively serve as such), which creates very quick number inflation very quickly:
50/50sp ~ 39.9% reduction twice ~ x2.77 EHP
100/100sp ~ 65.0% reduction twice ~ x8.16 EHP
120/120sp ~ 72.2% reduction twice ~ x12.94 EHP
150/150sp - 80.8% reduction twice ~ x27.13 EHP

as you can see those are extremely big numbers for the specific people that decide to highly invest in defensive sp- not to mention that this often goes paired with high sustain & health items that really make the snowball complete, which makes for near-unkillable players with surprising ease, and GMs would have to resort to using pretty extreme balancing just to make group-intended content even remotely challenging for the group that remembered to bring a Guardian user with some agility investment.

so there's an obvious problem of the extreme cases of tank builds ("hypertank") being far more powerful than they should be, and this is primarily due to the damage reduction combining to snowball out of proportion. you can't balance mobs around people that go for 3-4 times EHP to be fairly tanky against a boss that also has to somehow deal with players at 20+ times EHP- all the while not removing glassier builds from consideration. the only real solution was to tackle that specific value that kept creating the extreme outliers, which is what happened in 2.0 with the max skill point effect values being lowered for both defense and agility (with agility having slightly higher stats to make up for the other change it received of dodges now being a large damage reduction instead of no hit at all- they should still be more or less equally powerful):

50sp ~ x1.53 EHP (4.3% nerfed)
100sp ~ x2.29 EHP (16.5% nerfed)
120sp ~ x2.67 EHP (22.6% nerfed)
150sp ~ x3.33 EHP (33.3% nerfed)
50/50sp ~ x2.25 EHP (15.2% nerfed)
100/100sp ~ x4.37 EHP (44.1% nerfed)
120/120sp ~ x5.38 EHP (56.6% nerfed)
150/150sp ~ x6.84 EHP (74.7% nerfed)

these are roughly the nerfs you're looking at. personally i can see it having been a slight bit too much (75-ish max effect instead of the 70.0), but overall it does what it aimed to very well and most builds that weren't highly defensive weren't been hit by more than maybe a 15% nerf to their overall EHP, which is not that significant when it comes down to it.

if you have any questions please do ask further, i wrote this while being out of my mind tired- there are some better threads to introduce you to this if you search for a bit.

also, lastly, there were quite a few bosses that just straight up became a lot harder like the hive bosses, or the new nameless anomaly boss likely being the most difficult boss in the game. and if you were previously mainly playing warrior, you'd feel squishier due to the class base defense having been lowered in tandem with ability tree stuff, for example- remember that balance is tied to a lot of factors. the bart has spoken <3!

edit: for the funny people above me pls don't derail this thread by blaming soul points for something barely related again