Isn't Int nerfed a little too hard?

So uhhh apparently in 2.0 int just gives a bigger mana base BUT it still does it by a %, so if even if you invest 150sp into int you get like 80 more mana total :P When spells cost 45 mana an extra 80 feels practically worthless

I've heard the only way to reliably spam on beta as of now is minefield with mana traps or -spell cost items. Because mana is tied to hunger it also makes being able to sprint a pain. As it stands, I feel like having int will just be for satisfying item requirements .---.

 

Keep in mind that it also buffs natural mana regen - with that huge investment for +80% effectiveness, you can generally cast spells 3.25 times as often, not just 1.8 times. I agree that Intelligence was nerfed pretty heavily, but it was pretty heavily overpowered before.

 

yeah I think base mr is 5% of your max mana instead of 1/second, but that just means with 180 max mana the base mr just goes from 5 to 9, which isnt big tbh

 

Mana regen on item is currently still the same, even though the base mana pool has been multiplied by five. For instance, if an item gives +3/5 mana regen, that should be changed to +15/5.

 

It's the base identification values that were multiplied by five, which isn't always consistent with the max identification value. An item that ranges from 1-3mr is a base 2. Will then go up to a base 10, however at base 10, the max is 13mr with a min of 3mr, I believe

Generally speaking though, yes, items will basically work at roughly the same power level as pre-1.20 as of current changes. The only difference is that intel no longer reduces spell costs

 

I don't understand what you mean. Seeing as the base mana pool, its natural regen rate, and standard spell costs are all increased by five, effectively keeping it the same but just allowing for more "precise" values, shouldn't mana-related IDs be multiplied by five as well, to compensate? Items still display the low same values, so if it's just a visual thing, then that has to be changed.

 

Every mana identification is multiplied by 5. It's the base cost that gets multiplied by five. For any ranged identifications, the min roll is always 0.3x the base, max roll is always 1.3x the base. Which is why at base 10, the min roll is 3mr and the max roll is 13mr.
At base 2, the range is smaller, thus rounding plays a much larger roll, which causes min roll to be 1mr and max roll to be 3mr. Without rounding, the min would be 0.6mr and the max would be 2.6mr. 2.6 x 5 is 13, so technically the true min/max numbers are multiplied by 5

 

Spell spam is indeed much harder to achieve with the new intelligence, and will likely not be viable in the new meta that emerges. I think that given how our current items, playstyles, and essentially the entire game are balanced around spell spam and intelligence giving spell cost reduction, the change in intelligence was far too severe. I would rather have intelligence nerfed to 75, 70, or even 60% max rather than have the 2.0 intelligence.

Int thresholds are something I am personally against, which the mana change fixed. Without those int thresholds, a big reason (for some people) for making this change disappeared, which makes me even more inclined to like the old intelligence. I've been seeing dissatisfaction with the new intelligence all over the place, including from people who have tried building with the new system. It seems that the most optimized builds are turning into hybrid builds like the guardian angels one, or just straight up melee builds. Pure spell spam, which is the core of current Wynn's combat system and what makes it fun to a lot of people, is disappearing.

Not to sound like a downer, but if something doesn't change then I probably won't log on again to actually play Wynn. It just won't be the same without the fun spell spam builds I've used since Gavel came out.

 

Personally, I still have a little bit of hope for Spellspam.
Currently, I can decently easily make 16+ mr builds, w/ 8k bashes and 12.7k uppers. Here is one I made:

https://wynnbuilder.github.io/index.html#4_0Au01+0kQ07W0TQ0K00BX0OM09a0P0t1u001D1g00001004fI
WynnBuilder build:
> Cumulonimbus
> Aquarius
> Seipodon
> Capricorn
> Draoi Fair
> Intensity
> Megabyte
> Diamond Hydro Necklace
> Infidel [w6w6w6]

If you care a lot about mr, when you regen mana from mana regen, hold Tidebinder or Brace of the Ninth.
Wynntils has a MR timer which helps us count that.

I did the math and this build is actually decently sustainable for 2.0 Warrior, assuming you go Battle Monk.
It won't be as sustainable as it would be pre-2.0, but it's still decent, and probably more than most builds can achieve.
And, it has decent damage. However, it sacrifices EHP for Mana Sustainability.
Hopefully, in 2.0, new -spell cost items, or better spell-spam items will be introduced.
But without using -spell cost items, and maximizing on Intelligence, I'd hope this build will be decent in 2.0.

 

i think you made that build with the current system, not the 2.o system lol (mistakes happen lol)

edit: i should've read the whole thing first, sorry!

 

its alright
damage is prolly higher than it will be in 2.0 tho i think, i heard megabyte is getting nerfed or smth
gonna see if i can find a viable alternative'

edit: gigabyte is getting nerfed, nvm

 

Ok so here's my actual reply now that I've read your whole post.

That build has 1/3 costs (bash/upper) which in 2.0 terms is going to be worse given the increased cost of spells across the board, even accounting for the mana change. The lack of spell cost reduction in the build will also impact the viability of the build. Additionally, 12k uppers is a significant nerf from 1.20 numbers, where uppers on meta builds can reach 16k (ballpark) without mythics.

With what I and others have experienced in the beta, the spell spam builds in 1.20 will be low damage and low ehp due to needing to stack a lot of mana regen or spell cost reduction to make up for the intelligence change. The spell spam builds from 1.20 are just not viable in 2.0.

 

that makes sense
imma see if i can find a way to get in some - spell cost items, w/o messing up the stats
personally tho i might use this build if i do that, since i don't mind lower ehp
i just care about damage, mana sustain, and walk speed
ehp is still important, i can just not get hit, something im actually decent at in games

 

The problem is you cast like 2-4 spells and then you’re out completely. On top of that with no hunger you can’t even sprint to stay mobile and avoid attacks while stuff regens. Most people can cast at least 2-3 spells per second. Pretty much in 2.0 sprinting is a luxury and I think mana amount is too little and fluctuates too much even if spell spam is viable.

 

Honestly, if they don't revert the int change I think they should at least start adding -spell costs onto water items; I'm perfectly happy with hybrid becoming the meta, considering we've had a spell spam meta for years, but it feels like spell spam is practically impossible or at least extremely difficult to build now, which seems unnecessary

 

We just need to make spells cheaper

 

A few points I’d like to make:
1. Intelligence has a different role than other abilities. Trying to judge the effectiveness of an Int build based on single-target DPS is like trying to judge a surgeon’s competence by how good they are at rocket science. More Int allows you to more easily adapt, handle crowds, and it enhances utility like movement spells, support like heal and war scream, and versatility in general.
2. Intelligence was very overpowered before. The nerf brought it back in line with other skills, and the nerfs to defense and agility were to bring them a bit more in line with the other skills afterwards. Spellspam will be much harder to achieve - while I’m not super happy about that (my main build uses 1 mana multihits for 6k each with 80k effective hp), it does mean that other build types (tank, heavy melee, fast melee) are now viable, where before the only good option was spellspam.

3. There are upgrades for that. You literally have to get an upgrade, on the ability tree, for that in order to unlock all four spells. They cost 1 of your 45 ability points, and reduce spell costs by either 1 or 2. On top of that, new abilities requiring mana makes it more important, therefore making Intelligence more valuable.
Feel free to challenge any of these points in a non-personal, non-emotionally charged way. I legitimately thought over this:

And I still feel like the nerf doesn’t make Int underpowered, as Int fulfills a different role than single-target damage, or even single-spell damage.

 

Overall I disagree with you, but I just want to address this:

Having used tank, heavy melee, fast melee, hybrid, fast hybrid, etc., I have to say that the majority of those builds are viable in endgame, including in hard content like raids. Spell spam has not been the only meta-viable build for quite some time.

Sucks that you have to say this—the internet is not a kind place

 

Having taken a moment to reconsider this, I think I actually do agree with you on this one point.
I’m also not in the beta (no rank), so my viewpoint is more speculative, but at the same time, the old intelligence was clunky and didn’t really make sense from a design perspective. The new system fits in better with the other skills.
…
So maybe the new Intelligence system is underpowered and Spellcasting builds are not viable. Personally, I don’t think so. If someone else feels that Intelligence IS underpowered, and we have the same awareness of the same factors, then we simply have a disagreement, and we don’t need to argue back and forth over it - you can be here and come up with various ways to buff intelligence, you can recommend those ways to the devs, and maybe they’ll agree with you maybe they’ll like your ideas and implement them. Meanwhile I’ll be over there, happy with the new system, maybe a bit less balanced but a bit more fun for at least me, and probably a decent number of other players too.

 

I respect your viewpoint, but as someone who has experienced the beta—not to diminish your opinion—the intelligence change has resulted in me being unable to play with spellspam at all. I simply cannot put together a build as I don’t have the spell cost items necessary to get my spell costs down to a reasonable level.

If you’re interested in how many other people are dissatisfied with the state of spell casting in beta, I’d like to direct you to a thread + poll I made in the hero beta discussion section:
https://forums.wynncraft.com/threads/do-you-enjoy-the-rate-of-spell-casting-in-2-0-poll.300750/